Love Wins- extension

[Gail]

I didn't want to go on a tangent with the "Love Wins" topic, but I became curious on where people stand in their personal reading habits.

[Dr. Rich]

Minds are like parachutes, if they stay shut they are deadly.

[phkrause]

Great question Gail, I picked the next to the last one. I've read plenty of great books from people that I don't always agree with.

[doug yowell]

Minds are like parachutes, if they stay shut they are deadly.

Yes, but don't be so open minded that your brains fall out.

[doug yowell]

I found #'s 3&4 somewhat overlapping.If I were to vote it could be either of them.

[Stan]

EGW library was full of non-sdas books, if she was alive today she would be taken down for that.

[Gail]

EGW library was full of non-sdas books, if she was alive today she would be taken down for that.

I'm not sure about that. I find that scholars usually have an extensive library, or access to one, that is if you can tell by the footnotes and bibliographies in their books.

[doug yowell]

EGW library was full of non-sdas books, if she was alive today she would be taken down for that.

Don't forget her pick for the most important book outside of the Bible.-----------No, it wasn't the Great Controversy. And don't forget the ads and plugs for other non-SDA publications that were an everyday part of our own periodicals.I think she might do a little taking down of her own!!

[ClubV12]

...and what was her pick as the most important outside the bible?

[Guest]

EGW library was full of non-sdas books, if she was alive today she would be taken down for that.

No she wouldn't.

[JonathanPenner]

Gail, I didn't read every single post on the Love Wins thread. But from what I read there was a lot of opinions given by those who had not read the book. If I was to tell you my ideas on some Ellen White book based on the reviews given to it by some mainstream "Christians" who had a problem with what she wrote. You would say "read the book" then give your opinions.

I've both read "Love Wins", listened to the audio book version, and read a lot of the "hell" like feedback Rob has been receiving from all over the place. It never ceases to amaze me how often people react and respond BEFORE ever really listening to what's being communicated.

Like Rob said in his book "Often times when I meet atheists and we talk about the god they don’t believe in, we quickly discover that I don’t believe in that god either.” However too often we want to quickly move to assumptions, create boxes, slap on some labels, and establish the brand.

A couple of years ago I remember my son being told how evil the song "Devil in a Midnight Mass" was. To which he responded, "Have you ever actually read the lyrics? Do you know what this song is all about?" The song is about the devilish actions of a priest in Quebec who sexually abused kids for years in the churches he served in. And while the larger church organization knew what was going on. This priest was simply moved from parish to parish. Far from being evil, this song by Billy Talent simply echoed the words of Jesus who said in no uncertain terms, a priest like that should have a one ton concrete block attached to his neck and be thrown into a deep body of water. Hidden among many Godless messages being sung on radio, this particular song was actually preaching Jesus message and encouraging all people to stand up and do something about this kind of hellish injustice. They're not a "Christian" band. In fact I don't think any of the guys in the band are necessarily followers of Jesus.

The point is that too often we don't really listen to what is being said. We prefer to look for the label, read a title or a review by someone else and quickly arrive at our conclusions. I believe that is part of what is happening surrounding Rob Bell's book. There is so much misinformation floating around about this book. Because of Rob's very post modern communication style, I even found myself moving to quickly to conclusions before he had summarized a thought. In addition to this, I believe Rob has unmasked both Satan's lies and God's loving character in a way that enrages the Devil.

This book so powerfully represents the Biblical picture of God's love and plan of redemption in a language that can be heard and understood by those outside the walls of the church with all it's religious trappings and lingo. I love so many of the books Ellen White wrote. But the language continues to become more and more detached from our current culture. Making her writings less accessible to so many. I thank God He will never submit Himself to being owned by any particular group, denomination or religion. God will continue to inspire others with new ways to present eternal unchanging truths.

Just think of all the people God has worked through. Often I hear well meaning Adventists say, "We don't need to go to Babylon to learn anything." Yet God chose to provide many of the greatest prophecies every written through not only a Godly leader of literal Babylon (Daniel), but also through one of the most arrogant, pagan Babylonian leaders of all time, Nebuchadnezzar. Every time we put on a Revelation Seminar, we go straight to Babylon for our learning.

God obviously by-passed many great Jewish theologians in Daniel's day and instead chose to speak to Nebuchadnezzar. He did the same with Pharaoh and Joseph. And again with Baalam and his donkey. When will we realize that God will not be held to a brand, a denomination, or even a religion. He is God and instead of checking the label or brand a messenger wears, we need seek God and prayerfully ask the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, regardless of what vehicle God may choose to use.

After reading "Love Wins" I can only say that I believe God has again chosen to use another unique vehicle to communicate His message. And far from presenting a Universalistic, "every human being who has ever lived will be saved" message, Rob presents a deeply Adventist picture of Heaven, Hell and ultimately God.

[John317]

I find that scholars usually have an extensive library, or access to one, that is if you can tell by the footnotes and bibliographies in their books.

That's right, and it includes almost all SDA writers and scholars. I don't know of any who don't read a vast amount of non-SDA Christian works. Ellen White chose excellent books for her time to read.

[John317]

I like the fact that he teaches that God won't torture sinners in hell for an eternity, because I think he agrees with the Bible on that point; but does he teach that the wicked will be punished and will be destroyed? What does he say the Bible teaches about the fate of those who reject Jesus or don't accept the gospel?

[Tom Wetmore]

From my reading of his book, I would say he does not go with the punishment of the wicked approach but that those who have not chosen life, get their choice. One chapter is "Does God Get What He Wants?" He answers that affirmatively and also says we ultimately get what we want. So if our choice is that we do not want God, we get what we want - no God. I think the context suggests that a place without God is nothingness, nonexistence, total separation from God the source of life.

Part of the problem with people misunderstanding what Rob is saying is that they insist on reading it through the same traditional lenses which filter out anything other than what they want to see. You have to set aside certain preconceived ideas and read with fresh eyes as if seeing it for the first time. Rob Bell is painting a new picture and putting a new frame on it. But he is using the same materials to create the picture.

In the context of death leading to life, destruction leads to restoration. There is hope in a resurrection, a restoration, a new creation, a redemption. And he takes Jesus' all-inclusive language to heart. In the end LOVE WINS.

I also found that he comes much closer to our point of view on these topics which is perhaps why some evangelicals and traditionalist Christians are getting all twitchy about it.

[JonathanPenner]

Actually in his chapter "Does God Get What God Wants?" he begins by painting a picture of the various beliefs currently perpetuated around salvation and hell. Then he brings to light all the scripture that talk about the deepest longing in God's heart, that ALL might be saved. But he wraps it up by saying that "Does God Get What God Wants?" is a great question, an interesting question, an important questions that gives us a lot to discuss. But there is a better question "one we can answer, one that takes all of this speculation about the future, which no one has been to and then returned with hard, empirical evidence, and brings it back to one absolute..." "Do we get what we want?" and his answer is yes. "If we want hell, if we want heaven, they are ours. That's how love works. It can't be forced..." God is that gracious and respectful of us.

[John317]

I do believe that if a person really and truly wants to be saved and to live with Jesus-- not simply because of fear of hell-- they will be there. But I don't believe it's because God always gets what He wants. God doesn't always get what He wants. He didn't really want to be crucified, nor did God really want for Adam to fall or for Lucifer to fall. He never planned or wanted all the billions of animals to suffer and die.

The Bible teaches that God would have all people saved if He had His way. But He allows people to decide. The majority of human beings will be lost beause of their choices, not God's. God has already shown us what His choice is. Now it's up to people to decide if they will accept His choice. He made it possible for every person to be saved, and except for forcing the will, He does everything he can to make it happen.

[Tom Wetmore]

And doing everything he can leaves open the door for a truly surprise ending to the story. One that could redeem, recreate and restore all that has been lost... As a refiners fire, all impurity removed and only the pure gold left.

Where is the limitation on "everything he can" when it applies to God? All things are possible for God.

Life springing from death. After destruction comes restoration. Ezekiel speaks of Sodom's fortunes being restored. There are other examples of beauty from ashes.

Leaving a door open is an interesting observation that Rob makes about the gates of the city (symbolic of God's redeemed) never closing. Could it be...

Seems a far cry from a "shut door" perspective.

[JonathanPenner]

I was running out the door this morning when I posted the comment you responded to. And missed writing out a sentence that helps clarify the rest of the comment. I've edited it and re-posted it in red.

I did not mean to infer that God gets what God wants.

In fact, it's one of the greatest lies Satan has leveraged through people who claim to be followers of God. Regardless of religion, more murders have been committed, more crimes perpetrated because of an arrogant "we know what God wants..." mentality combined with a "...and we're going to make sure He gets it" militant position.

A few years ago Roger Waters (of Pink Floyd) released an album titled "What God Wants." I remember first hearing the title cut on radio and thinking it was so deeply sacrilegious and offensive, until I listened a bit deeper to what Waters was really saying.

The entire song is a wake up call to all those who so arrogantly believe they KNOW exactly what God wants. And when you really see it laid out in a song like this, you realize how arrogant we often are when we talk so confidently of what we believe God wants. (To clarify however, when God has clearly articulated what He wants, we can confidently know. But to often "What God Wants" is more about what we want.)

"What God Wants, Part I" ROGER WATERS

What God wants God gets God help us all

What God wants God gets

The kid in the corner looked at the priest

And fingered his pale blue Japanese guitar

The priest said

God wants goodness

God wants light

God wants mayhem

God wants a clean fight

What God wants God gets

Don't look so surprised

It's only dogma

The alien prophet cried

The beetle and the springbok

Took the bible from its hook

The monkey in the corner

Wrote the lesson in his book

What God wants God gets God help us all

God wants peace

God wants war

God wants famine

God wants chain stories

What God wants God gets

God wants sedition

God wants sex

God wants freedom

God wants semtex

What God wants God gets

Don't look so surprised

I'm only joking

The alien comic cried

The jackass and hyena

Took the feather from its book

The monkey in the corner

Wrote the joke down his book

What God wants God gets

God wants boarders

God wants crack

God wants rainfall

God wants wetbacks

What God wants God gets

God wants voodoo

God wants shrines

God wants law

God wants organised crime

God wants crusade

God wants jihad

God wants good

God wants bad

What God wants God gets

[Gail]

Jonathan, it's always nice to see you again. Come around more!

I am enjoying all the discussion on this controvesial subject.

[Guest Henry Miller]

Although I am not a universalist, I have often wondered how we would react if when Jesus returned we found out that the universalists were correct, and everybody is saved?

[JonathanPenner]

If we, as followers of Jesus, had ever understood Jesus story about the workers who were hired for different amounts of time through out the day, but all paid the same. We would be filled with joy at the amazing ability of God to create a plan for saving everyone and never allowing the virus of sin to enter again, all while at the same time allowing genuine freedom of choice.

While I personally can't reconcile that with the undeniable truth that God's love demands freedom of choice. God is still God and if he had a plan beyond our understanding (and forgot to let us know - which is His right) I would be even more blown away by the power of God's love.

However for many people who call themselves "Christian" I think they would be angry with God. Kind of like the older brother of the prodigal. Because to the core, they've written an inaccurate story about the Father. And if we don't truly understand the Father and His story for us, we somehow feel like we made all the sacrifices here on earth and "they" didn't. So we should get our reward. And "they" should get what's coming to them AND BURN!!!!

Too often we create God in our own image, after our own likeness. And not unlike so many of the mythological gods embraced by world religions, our God looks more like us than like the God of love who made heaven and earth.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, I think some folk would be mighty upset that God would accept all the prodigals back into the family and not give them the thrashing they deserve. Forgiveness misunderstood...

It reminds me of the account of serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer. One of the family members of one of his victims upon learning of Dahmer's conversion in prison said that if God forgave him and let him into heaven, she didn't want to be there.

Forgiveness misunderstood...

[John317]

The Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are very clear that the majority of mankind will be lost.

It's not a question of whether God will forgive someone like Dahmer. In fact, I believe it is certain that God did forgive Dahamer if Dahmer sincerely repented, confessed all his sins, and asked for forgiveness. God is no respecter of persons.

Having said that, the same Bible that commands everyone to repent and seek God with the whole heart also tells us that many people will be eternally lost. In Revelation 13, it's the entire world, except for a small group of commandment keepers, that wonders after the earth-beast and receives the seven last plagues. In REv. 20: 8,9, it's people who number "as the sand of the sea" who will be eternally lost and destroyed at the end. In the Gospels, it's the road well traveled and very wide that leads to destruction; whereas the narrow and less traveled road that leads to eternal life. And the Spirit of prophecy teaches the same thing-- that the largest portion of people who have lived will be lost.

Two good illustrations of this are at the Flood, when almost all the world was lost, except for Noah and his family; and Sodom and Gommorrah, when at least two cities wre destroyed, with the exception of Lot and two daughters.

You think God is trying to send us a message here? I do, and I think it's clear what it is.

[John317]

Most of the books I've read and by far most of the books in my library are by non-SDA, but I didn't find any of your answers apropos as to why I read them. I simply read them because they are written by good writers who know their subject, and they're on subjects that I am very interested in. I don't really judge a book by whether the writer is SDA or non-SDA. But neither am I deliberately setting out to be "open-minded." The only thing I require in a book is that it be well-written and have dependable information. These can be written by people of any or no religion.

[JonathanPenner]

God has been sending the same message from the start. He would that all were saved, but we get to choose. At times this group following God has been small. At other times it has been much larger. There were times such as Elijah's experience following Mount Carmel, where God's people thought they were the only ones left. In that instance God literally told Elijah to stop his self-absorbed "remnant" thinking and to realize God was working with a whole lot more prophets than just him. We read in 1 Kings 19 that Elijah truly believed he was the only one until God finally got his attention and said "Wake up Elijah!!! I have over 7,000 in your country alone who still serve me."

Then I also read in Revelation 7:9-10 "After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." Another large group of God honoring people.

The truth is that there are examples of both in the scripture and I wouldn't be so quick to draw a conclusion as to what message God is trying to send. I have too often seen groups of Christians who point out only the examples of "the few that were saved" in an attempt to bring people into their "remnant" group. This works all the way from a David Koresh to the local self-supporting school students who talk about the apostasy that has taken over our Adventist schools. This "we're the chosen few" mentality is possibly even more dangerous than the idea that everyone will get to go to heaven, because it is so deeply rooted in arrogance and pride.

In fact in Luke 9 when Jesus disciples tried to shut down the spiritual work of some other people who weren't part of their exclusive group, Jesus got after them and told them they weren't the only ones God was using. Later Jesus told them he had many followers outside the religious boxes they were familiar with.

All the while Jesus prayer in John 17, the last recorded prayer before he went to the cross, articulates that which he most desired for not only his disciples, but all who would follow them. "The goal is for all of them to become one heart and mind— Just as you, Father, are in me and I in you, So they might be one heart and mind with us. Then the world might believe that you, in fact, sent me. The same glory you gave me, I gave them, So they'll be as unified and together as we are— I in them and you in me. Then they'll be mature in this oneness, And give the godless world evidence That you've sent me and loved them In the same way you've loved me."

Jesus didn't fixate on numbers or the 27 fundamental beliefs his followers would need to remember. His only focus was that we would become one with each other, in the same way He was one with the Father. His focus was on how we live in oneness with each and then he gives a compelling reason why, "so the world might believe that you (God), in fact, sent me."

In Jesus mind, a Holy Spirit empowered Biblical community of oneness is the single most powerful identifying mark of His people and the greatest witness to a fallen world that He was and is who He said He was.