Love Wins- extension

[JonathanPenner]

Most of the books I've read and by far most of the books in my library are by non-SDA, but I didn't find any of your answers apropos as to why I read them.

Did I miss something in a previous post? Was I to give some kind of answer as to why you read non-SDA books?

I don't understand. Please explain.

[BobRyan]

The Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are very clear that the majority of mankind will be lost.

...

Two good illustrations of this are at the Flood, when almost all the world was lost, except for Noah and his family; and Sodom and Gommorrah, when at least two cities wre destroyed, with the exception of Lot and two daughters.

You think God is trying to send us a message here? I do, and I think it's clear what it is.

In Matt 7 Jesus said the MANY go to hell and the FEW go to heaven. And then of course there is Rob Bell in his opposition to Christ on that and many other points.

I do not have to watch every wiccan/witch movie or read every Harry Potter book that comes along to figure out that there is a problem. I do not have to go to every palm reader, sorcerer or false teacher and have first-hand debate with them to discern a problem.

So while it is true that I read a lot of non-SDA authors - I am not going about "cluelessly reading" everything that comes around. I try to look for that which is edifying.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Minds are like parachutes, if they stay shut they are deadly.

OTOH, minds can't be like a trash can that takes in all kinds of garbage.

[JonathanPenner]

In Matt 7 Jesus said the MANY go to hell and the FEW go to heaven. And then of course there is Rob Bell in his opposition to Christ on that and many other points.

Wow, that is a very pointed statement regarding Rob Bell's opposition to Christ. Have your read "Love Wins?" Or have you read what others say about "Love Wins?"

As Adventists we should be keenly aware of the difference between what we believe and teach, and what others say we believe and teach.

Can you give me some specific points where Rob is in opposition to Christ? In relation to the question of do many or few go to heaven or hell, Rob is clear. God has prepared the way for many to be saved, Jesus alone is the only way to be reconciled with God, and ultimately our choice of whether to trust and follow Jesus or not will decide our eternal existence (or non-existence). Jesus sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to save all. But all will not be saved. That is Rob's teaching as best I understood what I read in "Love Wins."

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Minds are like parachutes, if they stay shut they are deadly.

Yes, but don't be so open minded that your brains fall out.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

I love so many of the books Ellen White wrote. But the language continues to become more and more detached from our current culture. Making her writings less accessible to so many.

I wonder who has moved to their detriment?

"Abundant light has been given to our people in these last days. Whether or not my life is spared, my writings will constantly speak, and their work will go forward as long as time shall last. "Selected Messages 1:55

The farther along the path of history continues, the less I find in various comments authors speak about what the Word says, as valuable as spending time with the Holy Word itself.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

The Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are very clear that the majority of mankind will be lost.

"And I heard how many were marked with the seal of God—144,000 were sealed from all the tribes of Israel:

from Judah — 12,000

from Reuben — 12,000

from Gad — 12,000

from Asher — 12,000

from Naphtali — 12,000

from Manasseh — 12,000

from Simeon — 12,000

from Levi — 12,000

from Issachar — 12,000

from Zebulun — 12,000

from Joseph — 12,000

from Benjamin — 12,000

After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. And they were shouting with a mighty shout,

“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne

and from the Lamb!”" Rev 7 4-10 NLT

While I do know of the text indicating 'narrow is the Way and few there be who find it', I do believe that sometimes leads to an erroneous conclusion detrimental to hope for many who are honest in their opinion of their own lack, it seeming to exclude the undeserving from a joyous reunion with the Savior Who will leave no one behind who is willing to place their lives in the hands of a sovereign God, Who's power to save far exceeds our weaknesses.

It remains only for us to believe Jesus is not only willing to save us but also willing to change us into His likeness if we do not resist His efforts, as the above scriptures indicates many more than we now might be willing to admit, will submit.

"This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”—and I am the worst of them all."1 Timothy 1:15 NLT

The greatest loss is probably from those who do not hear and therefor place no hope in a soon coming Lord.

For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!”Romans 10:13-15

NLT

God blesses!

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

In Matt 7 Jesus said the MANY go to hell and the FEW go to heaven. And then of course there is Rob Bell in his opposition to Christ on that and many other points.

Wow, that is a very pointed statement regarding Rob Bell's opposition to Christ. Have your read "Love Wins?" Or have you read what others say about "Love Wins?"

As Adventists we should be keenly aware of the difference between what we believe and teach, and what others say we believe and teach.

Can you give me some specific points where Rob is in opposition to Christ? In relation to the question of do many or few go to heaven or hell, Rob is clear. God has prepared the way for many to be saved, Jesus alone is the only way to be reconciled with God, and ultimately our choice of whether to trust and follow Jesus or not will decide our eternal existence (or non-existence). Jesus sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to save all. But all will not be saved. That is Rob's teaching as best I understood what I read in "Love Wins."

That is consistent with how I understood it too.

[doug yowell]

And doing everything he can leaves open the door for a truly surprise ending to the story. One that could redeem, recreate and restore all that has been lost... As a refiners fire, all impurity removed and only the pure gold left.

Where is the limitation on "everything he can" when it applies to God? All things are possible for God.

Life springing from death. After destruction comes restoration. Ezekiel speaks of Sodom's fortunes being restored. There are other examples of beauty from ashes.

Leaving a door open is an interesting observation that Rob makes about the gates of the city (symbolic of God's redeemed) never closing. Could it be...

Seems a far cry from a "shut door" perspective.

Death is the ultimate closed door. "It is given unto man once to die and then the judgment." Once a person has died the opportunities for repentance and change also die. If Bell infers a second opporunity after death he's a heretic. If his book speaks to the saving love of God for the most desperate of sinners alive, he's right on it.

[doug yowell]

Although I am not a universalist, I have often wondered how we would react if when Jesus returned we found out that the universalists were correct, and everybody is saved?

I,along with millions of others, would be very angry. Wouldn't you be?

[doug yowell]

God has prepared the way for many to be saved, Jesus alone is the only way to be reconciled with God, and ultimately our choice of whether to trust and follow Jesus or not will decide our eternal existence (or non-existence). Jesus sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to save all. But all will not be saved. That is Rob's teaching as best I understood what I read in "Love Wins."

Hard to argue with that, unless your a Calvinist.

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Henry Miller

Although I am not a universalist, I have often wondered how we would react if when Jesus returned we found out that the universalists were correct, and everybody is saved?

I,along with millions of others, would be very angry. Wouldn't you be?

Hi, Henry!

If that were to happen then I, knowing that sin will not rise up the second time, would be happy in the knowledge that those who were monstrous on earth would be completely changed. It would be a surprise but I would work with what God gives us.

At this point of my knowledge, though, I don't think it will.

[JonathanPenner]

Originally Posted By: Henry Miller

Although I am not a universalist, I have often wondered how we would react if when Jesus returned we found out that the universalists were correct, and everybody is saved?

I,along with millions of others, would be very angry. Wouldn't you be?

Gail, I so agree with you. I know with absolute assurance from all that is written in the scriptures that when this age is done and God recreates the new heaven and the new earth, sin will never rise again.

So if God for some reason beyond my current understanding or knowledge came up with a way to save all people, while giving all the freedom of choice, and never allowing sin to enter again. I would be ridiculously happy!

I can't even relate to someone being angry at this. In my attempts to understand why anyone would be angry all I can come up with is that they have a distorted understanding of the Father. Somehow they must feel that God's way requires almost slave like sacrifice. Perhaps they feel like those who don't follow God get all the fun here on this earth. That as Christians we are somehow missing out. So when all is said and done and they get to heaven, these same Christians feel like all those who didn't have to sacrifice their lives for God, should go to hell and get theirs.

What a HORRIBLE and Christless heart for lost people. Even in the end when God will consume those who have made their eternal choice, I believe He will grieve their loss. As followers of Jesus Christ, our hearts should long for what His longs for, and hurt for what His hurts for.

While I don't believe there is any Biblical teaching that supports a universalist viewpoint. I would be overjoyed if in some way God found another way to draw more people to Him who could experience the joy today and for eternity of living in oneness with Him.

I just can't fathom how you could be angry about that!

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: Henry Miller

Although I am not a universalist, I have often wondered how we would react if when Jesus returned we found out that the universalists were correct, and everybody is saved?

I,along with millions of others, would be very angry. Wouldn't you be?

Why would you be angry?

[phkrause]

Although I am not a universalist, I have often wondered how we would react if when Jesus returned we found out that the universalists were correct, and everybody is saved?

That would be interesting, and as someone mentioned that they would be angry! I believe that as of right now reading that, I would be angry as I am now, but I would hope that if I get to heaven and see, let's say Hilter, who murdered most of my family, I would hope that I would be very glad to see him, because I would realize that he had repented. But I do believe that the universalist are not correct.

An example of this would be Stephen seeing and meeting Saul (to him of course) and hugging him and welcoming him into God's family.

[Gerr]

I,along with millions of others, would be very angry. Wouldn't you be?

Why would you be angry?

I for one, would not be angry, but I would be very curious as to how and why.

[JawgeFromJawja]

While I don't believe there is any Biblical teaching that supports a universalist viewpoint. I would be overjoyed if in some way God found another way to draw more people to Him who could experience the joy today and for eternity of living in oneness with Him.

For goodness sake, read the Bible, the whole Bible.

God's will is determinant. We are given "free will" for the foolish paths we take in life, but not for our ultimate fate, which is union with God. God's will is that all be saved. In the matter of salvation, God's will is the highest, final, and ultimate authority:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

As for God's will prevailing, it is documented throughout the Bible. A few examples:

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all

Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Isa 46:11 I will call a bird of prey from the east. I will call someone for my plan from a faraway land. I have spoken, and I will bring it about. I have planned it, and I will do it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Isa 46:10 From the beginning I revealed the end. From long ago I told you things that had not yet happened, saying, "My plan will stand, and I'll do everything I intended to do."

Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.

Psa 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

Psa 145:15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.

As for universal salvation, passages from Genesis through attest to it. You just have to read. A few examples:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This statement is in no way conditional or tentative!

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I just can't fathom how you could be angry about that!

Christ fathomed it. Recall his parable about the workers from the 11th hour on being paid the same as those working all day. The other workers were quite miffed.

Oh, what miserably petulant people we are! God loves us anyway. At least He loves me, and I know my salvation is assured. Salvation is a gift, and

Rom 11:29 --- the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

GeorgeK

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Most of the books I've read and by far most of the books in my library are by non-SDA, but I didn't find any of your answers apropos as to why I read them.

Did I miss something in a previous post? Was I to give some kind of answer as to why you read non-SDA books?

I don't understand. Please explain.

It goes to the first post on this discussion:

Quote:

How willing are you to investigate non-Adventist books (potentially containing non-SDA theology)

Only one choice allowed

It's error and I don't touch it. Not at all interested.

They are evil and to be avoided at all costs.

I always like to be open-minded, cause you might find some gems

I like to be informed, even if I might not agree

I like what's NEW- bring it on!

[John317]

I for one, would not be angry, but I would be very curious as to how and why.

Exactly, Gerry. And God won't do things that way. All the answers to such questions-- why people are saved or lost-- are answered during the one thousand years in heaven. During that time, the saved will examine the lives of the lost and will know why they are lost. In fact, if Ellen White is to be believed, the saved participate with Christ in determining the amount of punishment the wicked receive in the execution of the judgment.

If someone like Hitler is found to be immortal, we can be sure that God will open the record books so the whole universe can judge whether God was right to saved him. Our God is like that. He does nothing in a corner but all is open for our inspection. That's the message we take away from the Investigative Judgment and the judgment that occurs during the one thousand years.

I'm sure Uriah (and probably many others) will wonder why David is in heaven, and Isaiah will have some questions as to how Manassah came to be there, too. All such questions will eventually be answered to everyone's complete satisfaction. No one will be forced to live next door to (or even in the same universe with) someone they don't trust.

[doug yowell]

I,along with millions of others, would be very angry. Why would you be angry?

Thanks for asking,SM. I can think of many reasons but since I just spent 15 minutes typing them out and then somehow deleted them I'll give just a couple: 1) God's word has simply stated that there would be a coming judgment based upon an openly stated standard. This is found in literally hundreds of direct texts thruoghout the Bible.It is a part of the everlasting gospel. If God voids what He has once categorically required then I wouldn't believe another thing He said throughout the rest of eternity. 2)If God's idea of justice is rewarding Joe Stalin with eternal life and depriving me of being able of enjoy the pleasures of sin for my lifetime then I'd be mad about what I'd missed in this life and want to make up for lost time. 3) Even if God saved everyone, unless He made them all robots, they would just continue to make life a living hell for those who had lived their lives selflessly for others.Only they would no longer have any fear of future retribution. I'll bet you could think of a hundred other good reasons to be upset at His eternal fake out.

[John317]

In relation to the question of do many or few go to heaven or hell, Rob is clear. God has prepared the way for many to be saved, Jesus alone is the only way to be reconciled with God, and ultimately our choice of whether to trust and follow Jesus or not will decide our eternal existence (or non-existence). Jesus sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to save all. But all will not be saved. That is Rob's teaching as best I understood what I read in "Love Wins."

OK, I will have to take your word for it until I read Rob Bell's book for myself. I have a few books lined up ahead of his, though, since it's not high on my priority list.

If that is what he teaches, I agree with him. It sounds like a book that should cause other Christians to think deeply about their view of God.

I hope someone thinks to send Rob Bell the Conflict Series, because he just might be open to what those books teach about our gracious God.

[John317]

I agree with you, doug. At the very least, if all are saved, it would mean that God's word was a bunch of lies. (At the very worst, it would mean that God is the same as the Devil, a pathological liar.) Either that or else "God's word" wasn't really God's word and that the testimony of Jesus was also a lie. That would be enough to make any true saint's blood boil. Not because sinners are saved but because sinners found out that God also is a sinner. But maybe that is what some people want to believe.

[JonathanPenner]

2)If God's idea of justice is rewarding Joe Stalin with eternal life and depriving me of being able of enjoy the pleasures of sin for my lifetime then I'd be mad about what I'd missed in this life and want to make up for lost time.

I think this statement is the heart of what bothers me most. I was brought up in an Adventist home where there were many typical prohibitions against the "pleasures of sin" that I needed to stay away from. I don't remember anyone when I was young, showing me a true picture of sin and it's repulsive vile cancerous reality. All I remember is that somehow I needed to accept that following Christ meant, missing out on some good stuff. But I'd get heaven in the end.

The longer I live, the more I grow in my understanding of God, the more I see what a SATANIC picture of God that was. If we could always see sin for what it really is and does in our lives, we would see there is no such thing as the pleasures of sin. Any more than we would say we were missing out if someone told us to not drink something our friends had just finished drinking. A tall cold glass of freshly squeezed orange juice laced with cyanide.

Secondly, as I understand God's Kingdom. It starts now. I am not waiting to experience the benefits, blessing, thrills, and excitement of God's Kingdom at some distant time in the future. His Kingdom is here now. Not yet fully recovered, but enough that I wouldn't trade what I have in my life with God, for any deceptively described "pleasures of sin". The only pleasure sin ever gives is when it has been so cleverly disguised that we fall into the pit, before recognizing it for what it really is.

And if any one of us thinks that God can't change his plans, within the context of consistently maintaining the foundational characteristics of who He is which never change, we need to remember prophets like Jonah and others who felt God said one thing then changed his mind.

WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE TO TELL GOD WHAT HE CAN AND CAN'T DO!!! And then have the gaul to be angry with him if he doesn't move to the strings we pull. We can read the Bible, study to understand, rely on His promises. But how could we ever conceive of thinking we could put God in a box.

[doug yowell]

. Not because sinners are saved but because sinners found out that God also is a sinner. But maybe that is what some people want to believe.

Unfortunately I think that's too often true.

[doug yowell]

[And if any one of us thinks that God can't change his word, always based on the foundational characteristics of who He is which never changed, we are not remember prophets like Jonah and others who felt God said one thing then changed his mind. WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE TO TELL GOD WHAT HE CAN AND CAN'T DO!!! And then have the gaul to be angry with him if he doesn't move to the strings we pull. We can read the Bible, study to understand, rely on His promises. But how could we ever conceive of thinking we could put God in a box.

You'd better reread the Jonah story, JP, Jonah knew exactly what God would do before he did it and that's exactly why he hopped the slow boat to China.Jonah was hoping that God would change His mind (like the theme of this thread might imply to some)and got mad when He didn't. God puts Himself in a box, it's an open package that allows the contents of His will and character to be transparant to all.Those who don't look too long are the only ones in for any suprises. The Bible is full of stories of people who told God what He could and couldn't do.In fact God spends much of the Bible in begging people to pull His strings. One thing He cannot do is lie about who He will save and who He won't and any conditions attached. If He sets the rules He has to model them for us to follow.