Love Wins- extension

[Dr. Rich]

Good point John317. God knows sin but does not do sin. Jesus came to this earth to experance sin, but yet never became sin. Only humans who overcome sin and become righteous will be accepted into the Kingdom of the Heavens and God said that because they, themselves have overcomed sin, that they get to sit on the throne because they also will be born into the family of God, making them brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. Isn't that what Revelation 12:17 is all about? Satan will not go to war with anyone else. Why??--because they have not overcome sin but instead have joined the kingdoms of this world.

Interestingly, the humans who will have overcome sin have done something that even God the Father has not done because Jesus did it for Him too.

[doug yowell]

The longer I live, the more I grow in my understanding of God, the more I see what a SATANIC picture of God that was. If we could always see sin for what it really is and does in our lives, we would see there is no such thing as the pleasures of sin. Any more than we would say we were missing out if someone told us to not drink something our friends had just finished drinking. A tall cold glass of freshly squeezed orange juice laced with cyanide.

Secondly, as I understand God's Kingdom. It starts now. I am not waiting to experience the benefits, blessing, thrills, and excitement of God's Kingdom at some distant time in the future. His Kingdom is here now. Not yet fully recovered, but enough that I wouldn't trade what I have in my life with God, for any deceptively described "pleasures of sin". The only pleasure sin ever gives is when it has been so cleverly disguised that we fall into the pit, before recognizing it for what it really is.

Everything you've said here is true only if there is are future consequences to sin and continuance in well doing. But if everyone were to be granted eternal salvation in the coming resurrection (like the LDS teach) there'd be no cyanide in the OJ. If there were no tangible pleasures in sin who'd want to sin anyway? So why not "eat,drink, and be merry for tomorrow we will go to heaven too?"

[Sonny]

In fact, if Ellen White is to be believed, the saved participate with Christ in determining the amount of punishment the wicked receive in the execution of the judgment.

This is nonsense....

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself" [Ellen White]

Christ took upon His assumed humanity the sins of the whole human race, yet He experienced the second death within one day. In other places Ellen White states that some will burn many days for their own sins. So if you are going to equate punishment with justice you're going to have a problem, John.

[John317]

You are merely showing that you don't believe in Ellen White's prophetic gift and that you don't understand what she wrote. My suggestion-- seriously-- is that you ask Jack Sequeira about this. I am sure he would not say Ellen White is wrong about this.

It makes perfectly good biblical sense that punishment will be according to the deeds done. Jesus Himself says so, in fact. It would very unfair for the person who simply rejected the gospel to be punished the same as someone who not only rejected the gospel but who committed mass murder; or perhaps strangled little children just for the fun of it, and never repented of these horrific sins against God.

[JonathanPenner]

When it comes to God's punishment or vengeance, the Bible seems to bring out several pictures. One is the many times individuals wanted God to show his power, take revenge, call down fire.

There are many instances of similar texts to these.

Psalm 79:10 Show us your vengeance against the nations, for they have spilled the blood of your servants.

Jeremiah 11:20 Let me see your vengeance against them, for I have committed my cause to you.

Even Jesus closest disciples struggled with this one. For them rejection of Jesus should have resulted in him turning a flame thrower on the whole town.

But then there is another perspective woven through both the old and new testament. It's God's perspective. From his position, vengeance and punishment has a purpose. It's not about flame throwing or powering up on those who don't think the way we do. For God it seems to be about reconciliation, about waking people up so they can choose life. Vengeance and punishment in this context is NOT about making sure "sinners get theirs." But instead it is about mercy and a deep relentless desire that all would turn away from the sickness of sin that has overtaken their mind and body. Punishment is for discipline, change, growth, hope. Not because of a "we'll get even with them" mindset.

Ezekiel 25:16-17 "Therefore, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will raise my fist of judgment against the land of the Philistines. I will wipe out the Kerethites and utterly destroy the people who live by the sea. I will execute terrible vengeance against them to punish them for what they have done. And when I have inflicted my revenge, they will know that I am the Lord.”

Hebrews 12:23-25 You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of Abel.

The kind of vengeance that takes pleasure in seeing other people get what's coming to them, is so human though. Last night watching CNN with all the people across America cheering and celebrating the death of Bin Laden. I couldn't help but see the same picture of so many Muslim countries cheering over the death of an American soldier or some other American.

Is there no sanctity for life? Is this the way Jesus would respond to Bin Laden's death. I'm not saying the act of stopping Bin Laden from creating further pain and destruction wasn't required. But is cheering and celebrating his death a Christ like thing to do?

I have no specific confirmation of this in scripture, except for what I see depicted of God's character. But it seems consistent with scripture to imagine that when God finally ends Satan's life, it will cause sadness and pain in His heart. Even though there will be joy because all the evils Satan perpetrated will be stopped. I imagine there will still be pain, just as there will be in His heart for every living soul who has decided not to spend eternity with Him.

[Gail]

Quote:

I have no specific confirmation of this in scripture, except for what I see depicted of God's character. But it seems consistent with scripture to imagine that when God finally ends Satan's life, it will cause sadness and pain in His heart. Even though there will be joy because all the evils Satan perpetrated will be stopped. I imagine there will still be pain, just as there will be in His heart for every living soul who has decided not to spend eternity with Him.

Yes- God is righteous (just), who brings justice to the oppressed. Whatever form that takes, we know that even the wicked will acknowledge Him to be righteous.

[John317]

... it seems consistent with scripture to imagine that when God finally ends Satan's life, it will cause sadness and pain in His heart. Even though there will be joy because all the evils Satan perpetrated will be stopped. I imagine there will still be pain, just as there will be in His heart for every living soul who has decided not to spend eternity with Him.

I agree with you about God here. The loss of Lucifer will forever leave a void in God's heart, as will all the billions of people whom He has loved and wanted to spend eternity with Him.

But we don't want to go the opposite way, either, and think that the saints will be sad that Satan and all of sin and all of the evil people have been destroyed. That is not how the Bible protrays it. The saved will be glad that sin is no more and that the universe is once again in complete harmony and peace. Suffering and death are no more. Christ has attained what He set out to attain, which is victory over Satan and all the evil that resulted from his choices. That is not a bad thing.

Here are some of the responses of the saints:

Rev. 19:6

Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

"Hallelujah!

For the Lord our God

the Almighty reigns.

Rev. 15:3-4

And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and amazing are your deeds,

O Lord God the Almighty!

Just and true are your ways,

O King of the nations!

[4] Who will not fear, O Lord,

and glorify your name?

For you alone are holy.

All nations will come

and worship you,

for your righteous acts have been revealed."

Rev. 16:5-6

And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,

for you brought these judgments.

[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink.

It is what they deserve!"

Rev. 18:20

Rejoice over her, O heaven,

and you saints and apostles and prophets,

for God has given judgment for you against her!"

Rev. 19:2

for his judgments are true and just;

for he has judged the great prostitute

who corrupted the earth with her immorality,

and has avenged on her the blood of his servants."

Rev. 11:17-18

saying,

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,

who is and who was,

for you have taken your great power

and begun to reign.

[18] The nations raged,

but your wrath came,

and the time for the dead to be judged,

and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,

and those who fear your name,

both small and great,

and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

Here is how Ellen White saw it in vision:

Quote:

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King

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of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething

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lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

[Dr. Rich]

And don't forget Rev. 11:5 "And if anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies; and if anyone would desire to harm them, in this manner he must be killed."

And verse 6 "These have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire."

[JonathanPenner]

[but we don't want to go the opposite way, either, and think that the saints will be sad that Satan and all of sin and all of the evil people have been destroyed.

Yes and no. First off I don't see that these are two opposites. God's love isn't some kind of Yin and Yang. Sin is evil. God HATES sin and probably more accurately the results or wages of sin. Neither God nor anyone who chooses to spend eternity with God could ever be sad about the eternal removal of sin and evil.

However while we don't have an attachment in love toward Satan as God did when He created Lucifer. We do have attachments to many on this earth who may not be Hitlers or rapists or child molesters, but their final preference is to live life apart from God. And it will hurt deeply. It will take some of us a thousand years to work through that pain.

Just like we want to eradicate something like AIDS or the H1N1 or Cancer. God wants to remove and heal us of AIDS and takes no pleasure in watching someone die forever because they didn't want to allow Him to heal them of their sickness. Namely sin, the auto immune disease that destroys our defence mechanisms against eternal death.

It's really crazy when you think of it. Imagine someone walking through a hospital of AIDS victims, offering them medication that would immediately heal them, then hearing victim after victim mock the good doctor and tell him they just don't need the medication. They are happy the way they are. Or having some take the medication, but sit in their hospital bed thinking, "I sure wish I could enjoy the pleasures of the guy over there who gets to keep his AIDS. He gets to keep on injecting himself or living a gay lifestyle or... Instead now that I'm healed of AIDS I have to stop doing that stuff. "

[phkrause]

It makes perfectly good biblical sense that punishment will be according to the deeds done. Jesus Himself says so, in fact. It would very unfair for the person who simply rejected the gospel to be punished the same as someone who not only rejected the gospel but who committed mass murder; or perhaps strangled little children just for the fun of it, and never repented of these horrific sins against God.

I have heard this on many occasions John. I'm curious as to how you believe this will be accomplished?

[John317]

Really good thoughts all the way through your post, Jonathan. We actually think very much alike on this subject.

[Sonny]

It makes perfectly good biblical sense that punishment will be according to the deeds done.

But you didn't look at the conundrum you create with that type of theology. Again,

Christ took upon His assumed humanity the sins of the whole human race, yet He experienced the second death within one day. In other places Ellen White states that some will burn many days for their own sins. So if you are going to equate punishment with justice you're going to have a problem, John.

John, let me spell it out. Christ took literally the sin of the world upon Himself and He suffered (not at the hands of God) for one day. How, then, can a single sinner burn for many days for only his sins; yet Christ suffered less than a day for zillions of sins & sinners? Something's wrong and what is wrong is the way you and others presents God's so called justice.

[Sonny]

My suggestion-- seriously-- is that you ask Jack Sequeira about this. I am sure he would not say Ellen White is wrong about this.

Jack Sequeira does not make Ellen White the final authority; neither should you.

[Loneranger1]

The Bible says that we will be judged according to our works. "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27; "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." Revelation 2:23; "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12.

[Tom Wetmore]

In light of the OP and some of the judgments on Rob Bell and "love Wins" this is a timely and thoughtfully written article from Christianity Today:

Rob Bell Is Not A Litmus Test

[doug yowell]

The Bible says that we will be judged according to our works. "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27; "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." Revelation 2:23; "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12.

Seems quite clear,kemosabe.

[doug yowell]

God wants to remove and heal us of AIDS and takes no pleasure in watching someone die forever because they didn't want to allow Him to heal them of their sickness. Namely sin, the auto immune disease that destroys our defence mechanisms against eternal death.

It's really crazy when you think of it. Imagine someone walking through a hospital of AIDS victims, offering them medication that would immediately heal them, then hearing victim after victim mock the good doctor and tell him they just don't need the medication. They are happy the way they are. Or having some take the medication, but sit in their hospital bed thinking, "I sure wish I could enjoy the pleasures of the guy over there who gets to keep his AIDS. He gets to keep on injecting himself or living a gay lifestyle or... Instead now that I'm healed of AIDS I have to stop doing that stuff. "

Again, this is the second death,the consequence of being judged for the deeds done in the body during the first life. The story of Lazarus and the rich man illustrate that good things can happen to bad people in this life. Not all gay people,or drug addicts get aids. Not all chain smokers get cancer. Not all alcoholics lose everything. Not all murderers get caught.If the end of the aids victim were the same as the end of the sexually abstinent, which lifestyle would most people choose? Solomon had it right in Ecclesiastes when observing life.

[fccool]

Quote:

It's really crazy when you think of it. Imagine someone walking through a hospital of AIDS victims, offering them medication that would immediately heal them, then hearing victim after victim mock the good doctor and tell him they just don't need the medication. They are happy the way they are. Or having some take the medication, but sit in their hospital bed thinking, "I sure wish I could enjoy the pleasures of the guy over there who gets to keep his AIDS. He gets to keep on injecting himself or living a gay lifestyle or... Instead now that I'm healed of AIDS I have to stop doing that stuff. "

This is sort of example of God vs Humanity that is painted by Christian dogma. I.e. , if only humanity embraced the medicine that God is, everything will be ok.

Doctrine does not fix things. It does not fix the issue of world disease, hunger, disasters, and poverty. We should know this by now.

If someone had cancer (hopefully not), and I walk over with a pill that's unknown to them and say, "Take this pill and it will heal you from cancer once and for all. It's a magic one. But in return, I want absolute obedience, I want 15% of your income... and I want you to suspend logic and trust me when things get confusing." What would your answer be? Don't you think people have right to know what they are dealing with before actually dive into "perfect fix"? People should understand before they believe something. If they don't understand, then their belief is merely pragmatic "catholic hand motion" in hope that it has some magical powers of it's own.

The God you've painted above is a quid-pro-quo type of God. The one that only does something when people obey and believe. I.e. it's like a father that only gives his children food when they ask and permit them to be fed. Or a father who will not give children medicine that they refuse to take, saying "oh well, I've tried my best. My hands are tied. Suffer the consequences of your ignorance and die in agony." Or a father who would just let kids play in a busy road or let them put their hand on a stove to teach them a lesson of obedience. It's absurd.

And that's where the arrogance of Christians takes the highest place. They "know" why things are happening and God does not do anything. No matter how ludicrous it sounds, they seem to "know". And no matter how much you point out how ludicrous their conclusions are, they keep pushing the "ultimate pill" in form of a well-packaged doctrine that seldom dives into real solutions and rather dwells on broad generalizations and trying to squeeze things out of Biblical narrative that perhaps were never there to begin with.

And like in the example I've quoted, most Christians would rather mock the suffering as the fault of those who suffering and refuse certain solutions, rather than help those people in some real way... and for goodness sakes... show some compassion with no strings attached.

[JonathanPenner]

This is the sort of example of God vs Humanity that is painted by Christian dogma. I.e. , if only humanity embraced the medicine that God is, everything will be ok...

...The God you've painted above is a quid-pro-quo type of God. The one that only does something when people obey and believe. I.e. it's like a father that only gives his children food when they ask and permit them to be fed. Or a father who will not give children medicine that they refuse to take, saying "oh well, I've tried my best. My hands are tied. Suffer the consequences of your ignorance and die in agony." Or a father who would just let kids play in a busy road or let them put their hand on a stove to teach them a lesson of obedience. It's absurd...

And like in the example I've quoted, most Christians would rather mock the suffering as the fault of those who suffering and refuse certain solutions, rather than help those people in some real way... and for goodness sakes... show some compassion with no strings attached.

fccool, I am sorry for what you understood me to be saying. Your conclusion couldn't be more further from the truth.

My example of a hospital was not about the feel good, everything is fixed if you'll just become a christian, kind of thinking.

My point was simply that if we could look behind the curtain and really see every last dimension of life (all 11 of them according to string theory) I believe most of us would experience a paradigm shift. We would make different choices.

Not too many years ago we believed a fever could be brought down by blood-letting. It killed George Washington. But he thought he was doing the right thing. Today we know that cutting yourself to drain blood, is not going to reduce a temp.

If you read my previous posts I hope you would understand my heart. I soooo agree with you in relation to the arrogance of too many Christians.

I so agree with your statement above. Even the Bible talks about a God that would never do that to their child. In fact a father like that would be considered abusive and most of us would blow the whistle on a such a messed up parent.

And you are so right about those who wear the name of Jesus, but turn around and point at a night club that burned down and say "they got what was coming to them."

Sometimes I'm ashamed to be associated with the label "Christian". I would much rather be known as someone who is simply trying to honestly navigate what is true, and who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Based on your comments above, I would challenge you to read "Love Wins." I think you may really resonate with Rob's perspective on things. I'd love to hear your review of it.

[fccool]

I've read the book. It sort of goes along the lines of Darin Hufford's "The Misunderstood God”, which I'd say presents similar argument a bit better.

Darin has been cast out of his church for spreading these ideas, along with the ideas about organic leadership in the church, and suppressed gifts that go unused.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you, and this post have been made prior to me reading some of your previous ones. I know you have a different mindset.

I do hope that something drastically changes about how we "do church", and about our understanding of what church is. Unfrortunatly for the new generation, the old generation is so certain that Christ will come during their lifetime that they are willing to put up with the ultra-conservative route, ignoring their culture, their language (hardly understood by people of today), and their acquired preferences and tradition that perhaps has very little to do with Godliness and Spirituality.