Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[Guest]

Jesus paid our debt to death

[miz3]

For all,

If humans are judged by their works they are dead! It is impossible for us to be saved by our works. Our works have nothing to do with being saved. Works have a different purpose.

First, we are saved only by the merits of Jesus Christ and his perfection in keeping the law of God. Second, we are saved because Jesus Christ paid our penalty in full.

Does this mean that "works" are irrelevant? NO!!!!!!!!!!!

If you read the Scripture "works" that are lawful are done because of the SANCTIFYING WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (thus the term Sanctification).

Many humans mix the finished work of Salvation in the two items above. Those two items are what JUSTIFY US (thus the term Justification).

It is an easy, but fundamental mistake, for humans both SDA and others to mix the two processes.

One (JUSTIFICATION) is a FINISHED WORK! The other (SANCTIFICATION) is still an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit until Jesus Comes Again!

SDA mistakenly get confused about this. Other Churches do too because they do not understand what "grace" and "works" mean in the Bible. This is why you have the Grace group and the Legalistic group.

Within SDA we see the Battle of Ellen White quotes in order to bolster which ever group position we are trying to support.

I continually stand amazed at how few really know the Scripture in regard to this vital Doctrine of Salvation. Part of the problem is SDA are so wound up in Ellen White and their "special or unique" Doctrines that the greatness and beauty of what God has done for us in His Plan of Salvation gets lost and/or confused.

No! this is not a personal attack intended to ruffle feathers and to stir up everyone's anger against me. I say this because we (including me!!!!) have much to learn at the Feet of Jesus Christ!

The texts which talk about being held to the Law in the Judgment are directed at the "LOST" and are not directed at the "RIGHTEOUS (THE SAVED)".

This is another confusion that SDA and others get trapped into.

An example is the text John317 used:

James 2:9 "But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors."

[wayfinder]

Revelation 22:12 NAS

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Matthew 16:27 NAS

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself ;

27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

28 "Do not marvel at this ; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

29 and will come forth ; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

It would appear that we are rewarded or condemned by our works/deeds

[miz3]

To everyone,

The Righteous have nothing to fear concerning any Judgment because Jesus Christ's life and merits and deeds are the life, merits and deeds of the Righteous.

Thus, when God judges the Righteous according to their deeds He sees only the deeds of Jesus Christ. The wicked are in a different story because they are depending on their own real record.

If this were not true, then the Thief on the Cross would have no "deeds" of Righteousness, he would have only his sinful life deeds for which he was then hanging on the cross for.

[wayfinder]

Luke was not an eyewitness, Matthew and Peter were. It is understood that Mark wrote Peter's account of His time with Jesus. In the following there are two witnesses that say that both men were hurling insults at Jesus. Luke, on the other hand, takes an opportunity to promote his good friend Paul's "salvation by faith" theology. If you base your belief on the minority report, proffered by someone who was not even there and had no association with anyone who was (Paul was not there either) ok then.

Matthew 27:44 NAS

The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.

Mark 15:32 "Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe !" Those who were crucified with Him were also insulting Him.

Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ ? Save Yourself and us!"

40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation ?

41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds ; but this man has done nothing wrong."

42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom !"

43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

[Guest]

I could have told you that was coming miz3.

[John317]

To everyone,

The Righteous have nothing to fear concerning any Judgment because Jesus Christ's life and merits and deeds are the life, merits and deeds of the Righteous.

Thus, when God judges the Righteous according to their deeds He sees only the deeds of Jesus Christ. The wicked are in a different story because they are depending on their own real record.

If this were not true, then the Thief on the Cross would have no "deeds" of Righteousness, he would have only his sinful life deeds for which he was then hanging on the cross for.

Miz3, you are right in what you say here. The purpose of the IJ is to show or demonstrate who are indeed the righteous and who the wicked. That is not determined by a person's mere claim or by his mouth only, but it is shown by his life and his deeds, just as James 2: 12-26 says. This is also brought out in Matt. 7: 21-23 and Rev. 22: 12, 14. Also see Rev. 19: 8.

Rev. 22:12

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

NOTE: It does not say Jesus will repay everyone for what they have claimed or for what they have believed. I believe and claim to have Jesus as my Lord and Savior, but does my actual life reflect this? That is shown in the Investigative Judgment. In other words, the IJ will make clear the distinction between the goats and the sheep. The truth will out.

In the case of the dying thief, we can assume that the IJ will show that he truly repented of his sins and accepted the leading of the Holy Spirit. His attitude underwent a radical change, and his words and his behavior changed dramatically, reflecting the inward change. The IJ will reveal his motives and the thoughts of his heart. That is the purpose of the IJ. It will prove that Christ is just in justifying and saving this repentant sinner. Why? Because the Creator Himself shed His blood for him and the dying thief in turn truly placed all of his trust/faith in the Messiah.

[Woody]

Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." CSA 30

"Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

The inhabitants of earth are growing more and more corrupt" 2SG 228

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God" {1SM 344.2}

1 Cor. 15:51 "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. " DA 357

[John317]

Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." CSA 30

This is true of the righteous but untrue of the wicked. One of the main purposes of the IJ is to demonstrate and distinguish between the righteous and the wicked. (This is according to the clear language of the official statement of the doctrine.)

Many who claimed that they had accepted Christ will be proved false in the IJ. Matt. 7: 21-23. Christ's character does not cover sins that are unconfessed and unrepented of. One cherished sin will keep us out of heaven. Both the Bible and Ellen White say this clearly. See Matt. 5: 29, 30.

[miz3]

wayfinder,

You are free to discount Luke if you like. I am not!

[miz3]

Thank you Woody. I identify with your remarks!

[Woody]

[miz3]

Thank you Richard Holbrook. I knew ahead of time that unless you REJECT the word of Luke or any other writer of the Bible that the "thief on the cross" cannot be discounted as an example of Righteousness by Faith "alone".

Again, I want to stress that does not make our having righteous works irrelevant. Our righteous works are very important because that alone is the "fruit" that bears witness to our Conversion as Christ's slaves.

Unfortunately, the wicked who are lost also produce "similar" works that appear to be "good works" because the two works look so much alike to us humans. See Matthew chapter 7 and 1Samuel chapter 16 about man and outward appearance and God seeing the heart.

As John chapter 15 points out God expects us to produce good fruit for His glory! Like Psalm chapter 19 states the purpose of Creation is to "declare God's glory"!

Your warning is well placed Richard. Thank you.

[wayfinder]

Matthew 18:16 NAS

"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

I offered two eyewitnesses and you choose to accept the testimony of someone who wasn't even there, I guess that says it all.

[Woody]

Signs of the Times June 5, 1884

"We read, then, "Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness". In Christ the obligation of righteousness is met and fulfilled; not for man, as if there were no further claim on man, but by man -- actually by the man Christ, and prophetically by the believer in Christ through the mediation of faith.

These words must be construed in the light of preceding revelation. Man is sinful. He has not kept God's law, and, therefore, has not lived righteously, But he ought to be righteous .... Atonement is made in the divine compassion, which, through suffering, quenches wrath and lifts the ban of condemnation. Christ is the saviour of men, not by the law, for law saves no one except through obedience, and man does not really obey until he is already saved; nor from the law, for the law is "holy, and just, and good;" something to be honored and accepted, not to be escaped. He is a Saviour by virtue of the grace and power whereby he "translates" the sinner, through an inner, not an outer change, from a state of conflict into a state of harmony with the law." Signs of the Times June 5, 1884

[miz3]

Wayfinder,

Luke and Paul both had access to the eyewitnesses and Luke put in writing what his eyewitnesses saw and heard. Thus, there are more than two witnesses. The fact that other Gospel writers do not record this does not discount Luke's account.

Besides we do not what Luke and/or Paul knew and saw. They are both contemporaries of Jesus Christ. As such it is clear that they were converted after the Cross and maybe even after the Ascension. Regardless, they had to know of Jesus and were probably either neutral or against him to a small degree before their conversion. It is also clear that as the Christians grew that Paul saw this a grave threat to Judaism and was extremely aggressive in his efforts to wipe them out.

What we do know is that both Paul and Luke had intimate contact within the eyewitness community and as such would be privy to the details of Christ's life. Luke writes as much in his book of Luke. Luke may not have gotten the details of things at the cross from Matthew (Mark) or John. Luke may have gotten his details from the women who would and were most keenly the ones who followed Christ at every turn during the trial, the cross, the burial and even the resurrection. Luke must have relied heavily on the testimony of the women.

You can't discount Luke simply out of hand on such a narrow statement concerning the Gospel writers because Luke had access to so much more.

[wayfinder]

If that is what you choose to believe and the way you choose to believe it, so be it. Here is a study on where Luke may have taken the information which he put in his "gospel"

http://webspace.webring.com/people/np/paul_tobin/lukejosephus.html

[miz3]

Sorry Richard Holbrook you were the one dialoguing with wayfinder and I butted in.

Please continue with wayfinder. I hope that I have not stepped on it as to kill what you were trying to do.

[Guest]

No, not at all miz3. You are doing just fine. You will notice that wayfinder relies more heavily on the internet than he does the Bible for his source of information. I don't see that as a reliable source, as you can find a study to back up virtually anything you want to believe on the internet.

I believe that most of the views that he now holds came from the internet, because they most assuredly cannot be found in the Bible.

Sorry wayfinder, but it's true.

[Guest]

You can't discount Luke simply out of hand on such a narrow statement concerning the Gospel writers because Luke had access to so much more.

Amen!

[John317]

I have a question for you that has been bugging me for years. No one has yet been able to give me a credible answer.

Where in the Bible does it say that humans have a "free will" and/or "freedom of choice" and/or are "free moral agents"? I find no where in the Scriptural Record either these terms or even an indirect allusion that such exists.

Given the above, where do SDA's get that humans are "free moral agents" and/or have a "free will" and/or have "freedom of choice"?

No reason to be bugged by this for years unless you want to be.

Just for the record, so people will understand what Ellen White taught on this topic, here is what she wrote, leaving no doubt as to her position:

-God has made men responsible beings, and placed them in circumstances favorable to obedience to His will. In the dignity of their God-given manhood, they are to be governed and controlled by God Himself, not by any human intelligence in our world. Man is ever to acknowledge that God lives and reigns; men are never to become lords over God's heritage. They are to consider that "all ye are brethren." In the very fact that men are free moral agents, God teaches us not to be forced or compelled into any course of action, also that as responsible beings in copartnership with God we are to represent God in character. We are to have an interest in our brother, in our neighbor, in all around (Letter 65, 1895). {5BC 1098.1}

Let those who work for Christ keep their principles pure. Let the life be untainted by any polluting practice. All heaven is interested in the restoration of the moral image of God in man. All heaven is working to this end. God and the holy angels have an intense desire that human beings shall reach the standard of perfection which Christ died to make it possible for them to reach. It is His desire that we shall be one with Christ, complete in Christ, that we shall be heirs of heaven; but we are left free to choose. God calls upon us to make our choice on the right side, to connect with heavenly agencies, to adopt principles which have a reviving, restoring influence, which will restore in us the moral image lost through disobedience. As by faith we adopt the principles which characterize the life of Christ, they are in the soul as a well of water, springing up unto everlasting life. The soul overflows with the riches of the grace of Christ, and this overflow refreshes other souls. {HP 286.5}

[Guest]

Amen!

[miz3]

I thought this topic had long since expired because there was lack of interest or everyone had had their say and we were just repeating ourselves to boredom. Maybe I was wrong?

Also I thought RLH was involved in a discussion with wayfinder and I butted in. I was afraid my butting in may have killed their discussion.

Third, John 317, I do not want to dispute with you or anyone else on this thread anyway, whether Ellen White is credible on this subject or any other subject. I know that I have been sidetracked before on this thread. It was my purpose to ask this question and limit it only to Biblical Source!

I know that Ellen White believes humans are "free moral agents" that is without dispute. The question is can this be shown in clear unambiguous ways from the Bible? I am not looking for some round complicated set of passages in which one has to infer this or that!

Fourth, simply looking up passages that use the word "choice, choose, etc." has already been dealt with in this thread and I believe (personal opinion) that such passages do not cut it when it comes to demonstrating that humans are "free moral agents".

Fifth, using only passages from Romans it seems clear to me at least that humans are "NOT FREE MORAL AGENTS" instead humans are the slaves of the master who owns them. That is either the "sinful nature" or the "Spiritual Nature"! I believe that this is Paul's theology and is supported by other places in the Bible as well.

Sixth, I am not asking anyone to lock this thread, shut it down in any other way, or to destroy this thread. It is just that I am surprised to see it come to the top again!

Let it ride!

[John317]

Give me one at a time please.

You've asked for someone to give you one example of where you teach the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

Acts 2:3 says "divided tongues," but you claim that it should read, "a divided tongue," even though there is absolutely no evidence for this. Acts 2: 4 says that it was the Holy Spirit who inspired Peter and the other disciples that day, but as a result of your false view of Acts 2: 3, you say it was actually Satan who influenced the people to say and do what they did on the day of Pentecost and afterwards. It is on the basis of such reasoning that you've concluded that the book of Acts is full of lies, even though it has proven itself to be one of the most reliable texts in the New Testament canon.

It is also full of evidence showing that humans are free moral agents. All of the appeals made by the apostles for people to repent and believe the gospel (such as Acts 2: 38; 3: 19; 8: 22; ) are based on the concept that people are free to choose Christ or reject Christ. Acts 7: 51 shows clearly that people are able to resist the Holy Spirit. Acts 10: 34, 35 says that God shows no partiality but that WHOEVER fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him. This exactly agrees with Rev. 22: 17: "And the Spirit and the bride say 'Come!' And let him who hears say 'Come!' And let him who thirsts come. AND WHOSOEVER DESIRES, LET HIM TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY."

[John317]

I do not want to dispute with you or anyone else on this thread anyway, whether Ellen White is credible on this subject or any other subject. I know that I have been sidetracked before on this thread. It was my purpose to ask this question and limit it only to Biblical Source!

I think it's important to understand what Ellen White's position was on the question of humans being free moral agents. I recently found the statement that clearly shows us what that position was, and I know that Seventh-day Adventists will be interested in seeing the evidence.

The Bible evidence supports the position of Ellen White. The Bible would make no sense if we assume that people aren't free to make the choices they make. For instance, why are people punished for their sins if they had no choice? Your argument would mean that Cain had no choice but to kill his brother Abel. It would also mean that Job had no choice but to do what he did. If we assume your position, the same can be said of Christ-- that He was no free moral agent but that He did everything He did because He was compelled to do and say those things. Thus all the righteousness of Christ was not due to His decisions and choices. But if Christ's righeousness was not because of Christ's daily decisions, was He really righteous?

I think the basic problem in your position is that you misunderstand what it means to be free moral agents. You seem to assume that it means people are under no influence and that they are absolutely free in every sense of the word. Such an assumption is invalid. Everyone is being influenced by either good or evil forces in one way or another. This does not mean that people aren't free moral agents.