Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[miz3]

Dr. Rich,

The term "bondservent" depends on which translation you use. Some translations do not even use the term. They us the term "slave" instead.

Regardless of the term used, the concept is that such a one has no will of their own but their will is controlled and owned by another. God is our master and as such is our will! He takes over our will because we "have been bought with a price" and "we are not our own"(1Corinthians chapter 6)! I am speaking in the Spiritual sense when I state this.

However, in the physical sense when we are talking human to human, no human can fully control another human.

[miz3]

Dr. Rich,

Quote:

"And then tell me how you can get all of the many different DNA races out of the same DNA and blood type? Tell me how long it would take for a pure white man's and woman's seed down line to produce a black human with completly different DNA? Fact is, it would never happen."

Are having trouble keeping track of your words, Dr. Rich? Are you so mixed up that you cannot think straight?

You did say "white" didn't you?

Just for the record that was post #436625!

I rest my case!

[Dr. Rich]

WHAT? Where did I ever mention the words that "Adam" was white? I didn't! You assumed something that I never said. And you know what that means? Adam could have been ANY color--as that is NOT what I was attempting to show. But Adam and Eve had the exact same DNA. So when and how did all of the races in the world come to be?

A slave is not free. Christians who believe they have been set free are therefore not bondservants. Yet a bondservant still has the power and will to choose (Rev. 3:11).

The grave can't hold anyone who has become righteous because it is against God's own law.

Now answer the questions without your constant circular reasoning.

[miz3]

"And then tell me how you can get all of the many different DNA races out of the same DNA and blood type? Tell me how long it would take for a pure white man's and woman's seed down line to produce a black human with completly different DNA? Fact is, it would never happen."

Dr. Rich,

Are having trouble keeping track of your words, Dr. Rich? Are you so mixed up that you cannot think straight?

You did say "white" didn't you? See the above quote in the box?

Just for the record that was post #436625!

I rest my case!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

"And then tell me how you can get all of the many different DNA races out of the same DNA and blood type? Tell me how long it would take for a pure white man's and woman's seed down line to produce a black human with completly different DNA? Fact is, it would never happen."

Dr. Rich,

Are having trouble keeping track of your words, Dr. Rich? Are you so mixed up that you cannot think straight?

You did say "white" didn't you? See the above quote in the box?

Just for the record that was post #436625!

I rest my case!

Cut him some slack miz. This is actually one of his more benign beliefs. Wait till you see the whole enchilada...

[miz3]

Richard Holbrook,

I thought I was!

[Dr. Rich]

mixedup miz3, yes I did say white but I could have said black because the color does not matter. IT was NOT about the color, so get your act together! Stop assuming stuff that is not TRUE! NEVER did I ever say that Adam what white!!!!!!!!!

Now answer the question!!!!!!!!!!!

[miz3]

Dr. Rich,

The context of your assertion said, "WHITE" in every way.

I did answer all your questions.

I will help you:

See post #437105.

See post #466664.

Its all there.

I can't wait for the whole enchilada!

[Dr. Rich]

Miz3, no you didn't. You can't. Since Adam and Eve had the same DNA, then all of their offspring would also have the same DNA. The only possibilty for the races is IF God made all of them and that is what my theory is all about.

[miz3]

Dr. Rich,

You obviously do not know the Power of God!

Get to know God and you will not rely on human logic and human science so much.

As Jesus Christ in John Chapter 3 told Nicodemus "you must be born again"!

That is my advice to you.

[Dr. Rich]

miz3, you don't know me either or you would NEVER have written what you did. Let's agree not to hurt one another with put downs, ok? If you can't answer the quetion that is ok. I appoligize for making you squrim.

[skyblue888]

Dr. Rich,

The term "bondservent" depends on which translation you use. Some translations do not even use the term. They us the term "slave" instead.

Regardless of the term used, the concept is that such a one has no will of their own but their will is controlled and owned by another. God is our master and as such is our will! He takes over our will because we "have been bought with a price" and "we are not our own"(1Corinthians chapter 6)! I am speaking in the Spiritual sense when I state this.

However, in the physical sense when we are talking human to human, no human can fully control another human.

God is our master but He does not force His will upon us, believer or unbeliever. It is true that the Scriptures teach that it is God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure but only if we consent. Never at any time does God force His will upon us. Even though we have been bought with a price and that we are not our own, we still have freedom to choose whether God will have His own possession or not so that He can do for us that which it is not in our power to do for ourselves. This is called the glorious liberty of the sons of God. For where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.

But many resist His overtures and that fact alone reveals that they are free moral agents for they could choose not to resist and by not resisting they would benefit from the merits of Christ fully.

sky

[miz3]

Dr. Rich,

I am not the one squirming.

Your wild and unBiblical assertions are unable to understand God and what He is about.

Because you cannot answer every little detail of the Creation you turn to human thoughts and human devices that are to puny to understand God and His infinite complexity.

Thus, in your mind, if human devices cannot answer the questions posed then it must NOT BE TRUE!

God cannot be boxed into a compartment that is built upon human devices like 'science', philosophy, etc. etc.

God is known by His Word (that means the Bible). Understanding comes only from God. God and Jesus Christ are the witnesses to this. There it is you have two credible witnesses yet you ignore their witness. If you need a third witness you have it in the Holy Spirit!

See 1Corinthians 2:6-12 and also John chapter 3 where Jesus Christ tells us to be born again of the Holy Spirit!

Not born again: of science, of philosophy, of logic, of the writings and works of the humans entity, etc. etc.

As Jesus Christ, Himself, said, "Man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God"!

My questions to you are: Why do you resist the Lord God and the Words that proceed from His mouth? and Why do you follow "cunningly devised fables of human origin"?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Ellen White1898

“Christ might commission the angels of heaven to pour out the vials of His wrath on our world, to destroy those who are filled with hatred of God. He might wipe this dark spot

from His universe. But He does not do this. He is today standing at the altar of incense, presenting before God the prayers of those who desire His help. {DA 568.4}

This was written I believe around 1898 some 54 years after 1844 when according to Ellen White and the SDA Church Jesus Christ had already entered the "MOST HOLY PLACE".

As the Desire Ages quote above states Jesus Christ was still in the "Holy Place" ministering.

HOW CAN THIS BE?

How can this be?

Rob, notice that it does not say that He is standing BEFORE the altar of incense in the Holy place but that He is standing at the altar of incense before God. In 1844 the throne was moved from the Holy into the Holiest of all and both the Father and the Son moved there and Jesus continued to plead the merits of His sacrifice receiving the prayers of those who desire His help.

The altar of incense is the altar of prayer. Notice these words:

"As we acknowledge before God our appreciation of Christ's merits, fragrance is given to our intercessions. As we approach God through the virtue of the Redeemer's merits, Christ places us close by His side, encircling us with His human arm while with His divine arm He grasps the throne of the Infinite. He puts His merits as sweet incense in the censor in our hands to encourage our petitions." E.G. White, Our Father Cares, p.120.

For "He has turned the merits of His sacrifice into prayer." E.G.W. 7 B.C.914.

sky

"The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

[Dr. Rich]

miz3, again it appears that the pot is calling the kettle black. But then you will never understand the truth if you don't trim off the burnt wick.

[Dr. Rich]

sky wrote: "God is our master but He does not force His will upon us, believer or unbeliever." Let's see now, Saul was made blind by this light so that it forced him to visit someone else to be able to see again and to teach him something??? If that isn't being forced then I don't know what is!

[miz3]

Sky,

There is a difference between the "alter of incense" and the "censer".

Unfortunately many get confused on this point. If you look in the Old Testament you will find that the "alter of incense" was ONLY in the Holy Place. However on the Day of Atonement the High Priest took the "censer" (a completely different instrument from the "alter of incense")with him into the Most Holy Place.

Thus my question remains concerning the 1898 Ellen White Statement and what we believe happened in 1844. Thus, are there answers to the four or five questions I have posed in this regard?

[skyblue888]

sky wrote: "God is our master but He does not force His will upon us, believer or unbeliever." Let's see now, Saul was made blind by this light so that it forced him to visit someone else to be able to see again and to teach him something??? If that isn't being forced then I don't know what is!

But you forget that Saul was an honest man. The Lord knew his heart. Saul was a very zealous man for the Lord but He had been blinded by the traditions of men. Saul was a true seeker for truth and that allowed the Lord to intervene in his behalf.

sky

[skyblue888]

Sky,

There is a difference between the "alter of incense" and the "censer".

Unfortunately many get confused on this point. If you look in the Old Testament you will find that the "alter of incense" was ONLY in the Holy Place. However on the Day of Atonement the High Priest took the "censer" (a completely different instrument from the "alter of incense")with him into the Most Holy Place.

Thus my question remains concerning the 1898 Ellen White Statement and what we believe happened in 1844. Thus, are there answers to the four or five questions I have posed in this regard?

No it doesn't. You can't build a doctrine on a lone statement when there are dozens that say differently from your interpretation of that statement. As if there was no censor in the holy place!

"As has been stated, the earthly sanctuary was built by Moses according to the pattern shown him in the mount. It was "a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices;" its two holy places were "patterns of things in the heavens;" Christ, our great High Priest, is "a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man." Hebrews 9:9, 23; 8:2. As in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in heaven, he beheld there "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne." He saw an angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Revelation 4:5; 8:3. Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven; and he saw there the "seven lamps of fire" and the "golden altar" represented by the golden candlestick and the altar of incense in the sanctuary on earth. Again, "the temple of God was opened" (Revelation 11:19), and he looked within the inner veil, upon the holy of holies. Here he beheld "the ark of His testament" (Revelation 11:19), represented by the sacred chest constructed by Moses to contain the law of God.

Moses made the earthly sanctuary, "according to the fashion that he had seen." Paul declares that "the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry," when completed, were "the patterns of things in the heavens." Acts 7:44; Hebrews 9:21, 23. And John says that he saw the sanctuary in heaven. That sanctuary, in which Jesus ministers in our behalf, is the great original, of which the sanctuary built by Moses was a copy.

The heavenly temple, the abiding place of the King of kings, where "thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him" (Daniel 7:10), that temple filled with the glory of the eternal throne, where seraphim, its shining guardians, veil their faces in adoration--no earthly structure could represent its vastness and its glory. Yet important truths concerning the heavenly sanctuary and the great work there carried forward for man's redemption were to be taught by the earthly sanctuary and its services.

After His ascension, our Saviour was to begin His work as our High Priest. Says Paul, "Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:24. As Christ's ministration was to consist of two great divisions, each occupying a period of time and having a distinctive place in the heavenly sanctuary, so the typical ministration consisted of two divisions, the daily and the yearly service, and to each a department of the tabernacle was devoted.

As Christ at His ascension appeared in the presence of God to plead His blood in behalf of penitent believers, so the priest in the daily ministration sprinkled the blood of the sacrifice in the holy place in the sinner's behalf.

The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement.

In the great day of final award, the dead are to be "judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12. Then by virtue of the atoning blood of Christ, the sins of all the truly penitent will be blotted from the books of heaven. Thus the sanctuary will be freed, or cleansed, from the record of sin. In the type, this great work of atonement, or blotting out of sins, was represented by the services of the Day of Atonement--the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary, which was accomplished by the removal, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, of the sins by which it had been polluted.

As in the final atonement the sins of the truly penitent are to be blotted from the records of heaven, no more to be remembered or come into mind, so in the type they were borne away into the wilderness, forever separated from the congregation." P.P.356,357.

sky

[miz3]

Christ might commission the angels of heaven to pour out the vials of His wrath on our world, to destroy those who are filled with hatred of God. He might wipe this dark spot

from His universe. But He does not do this. He is today standing at the altar of incense, presenting before God the prayers of those who desire His help. {DA 568.4}

Ellen White wrote this in 1898. That is 54 years after 1844 when Jesus Christ entered the Most Holy Place according to SDA Orthodoxy. This statement states that in 1898 Jesus is still in the Holy Place doing a different work.

My question is, is this a problem and if it is not please explain why it is not?

[skyblue888]

"The Scripture which above all other had been the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14 (G.C.409.

[miz3]

It appears to me to be a conflict of assertions.

I guess "free agency" like other things we believe is based on SOP and/or originates with SOP and then we SDA try and build a Biblical explanation around it, when the Bible actually says nothing about these things.

If it indeed is "new light" then the Bible would not be expected to express it. We would accept the "new light" because God through the Holy Spirit would cause us to see it as Truth.

When Jeremiah told Zedekiah that Babylon would destroy Jerusalem it was "new light" yet Zedekiah rejected the "new light" because he was relying on the old promises that the Prophets of God had expressed in the past that said otherwise.

Why didn't Zedekiah accept the "new light" even though it appeared to contradict the "old light" that stated otherwise.

In like manner why do SDA not accept SOP's "new light" on free agency instead of trying to say that it came from the "old light" as spoken in the Bible.

The "new light" to Zedekiah contradicted the "old light" Zedekiah had read.

[John317]

Christ might commission the angels of heaven to pour out the vials of His wrath on our world, to destroy those who are filled with hatred of God. He might wipe this dark spot

from His universe. But He does not do this. He is today standing at the altar of incense, presenting before God the prayers of those who desire His help. {DA 568.4}

Ellen White wrote this in 1898. That is 54 years after 1844 when Jesus Christ entered the Most Holy Place according to SDA Orthodoxy. This statement states that in 1898 Jesus is still in the Holy Place doing a different work.

My question is, is this a problem and if it is not please explain why it is not?

It is a problem , yes, IF you don't understand the Investigative Judgment and if you misunderstand what Ellen White is saying here.

Consider the following paragraph, which is somewhat similar to the one you quoted:

Quote:

I saw an angel flying swiftly to me. He quickly carried me from the earth to the holy city. In the city I saw a temple, which I entered. I passed through a door before I came to the first veil. This veil was raised, and I passed into the holy place. Here I saw the altar of incense, the candlestick with seven lamps, and the table on which was the showbread. After viewing the glory of the holy, Jesus raised the second veil, and I passed into the holy of holies. {CET 91.2}

In the holiest I saw an ark; on the top and sides of it was purest gold. On each end of the ark was a lovely cherub, with its wings spread out over it. Their faces were turned toward each other, and they looked downward. Between the angels was a golden censer. Above the ark, where the angels stood, was an exceeding bright glory, that appeared like a throne where God dwelt. Jesus stood by the ark, and as the saints' prayers came up to Him, the incense in the censer would smoke, and He would offer up their prayers with the smoke of the incense to His Father. {CET 91.3}

Do you believe that Ellen White forgot where Jesus is? She obviously knows that Jesus is in the Most Holy Place. She says that the altar of incense is in the Holy Place. Remember that when the earthly High Priest went into the Most holy Place, he would take a golden censer and put it by the ark. Why? Because the incense represented-- or symbolized--- Christ, and it was only Christ's righteousness that was acceptable to the Father. Christ's righteousness is necessary for our prayers to be accepted by the Father.

In the above, Jesus is said to be standing by the ark of the covenant, and He is surrounded by the smoke of the burning incense. Clearly this is symbolic language to help us understand what Jesus is doing in heaven for us right now. He is making intercession for us before the Father. That is symbolized by Christ's standing at the altar of incense, or similarly, by the smoking incense arising from between the angels on the ark of the covenant.

The altar of incense was just inside the Holy Place, right up against the curtain separating the two apartments. Its purpose was to provide the sweet smelling incense in order that the High Priest could use some of it to shield himself from the Shekinah glory and not be destroyed when he went into the Most Holy Place. So the golden altar of incense was very closely associated with the Most Holy Place. It was in the Holy Place, yes, but it actually dealt with the Most Holy Place and the work that went on in that second apartment.

By the way, you have said that you are standing in defense of Ellen White and that you don't quote things-- or give links--- in order to attack her. You talk of how shabbily some people have treated her. But what are you doing here? Are you saying that these statements by Ellen White are the result of people changing her writings? Or are you suggesting that Ellen White didn't know what she was talking about and that she contradicts herself in something so important as the heavenly sanctuary?

[John317]

...When Jeremiah told Zedekiah that Babylon would destroy Jerusalem it was "new light" yet Zedekiah rejected the "new light" because he was relying on the old promises that the Prophets of God had expressed in the past that said otherwise.

Why didn't Zedekiah accept the "new light" even though it appeared to contradict the "old light" that stated otherwise.

In like manner why do SDA not accept SOP's "new light" on free agency instead of trying to say that it came from the "old light" as spoken in the Bible.

The "new light" to Zedekiah contradicted the "old light" Zedekiah had read.

The answer is that there is much evidence in the Bible showing that humans are free moral agents, even though it doesn't use that very term or phrase.

For instance, look carefully at Rev. 3: 20--

Rev. 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

NOTE: What does Christ tell us to do? We must open the door. Christ won't do it. It requires that we make a moral choice and open the door. If we can't, then there's no sense asking us to open the door. In that case, He might as well tell us to jump to the moon.

There are many other examples in the Bible: Romans 6: 12-14, for instance--

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. [13] Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. [14] For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

NOTICE the things that it says we must do. If we can't do them, what's it doing in the Bible?

Another:

Romans 6:17-22

But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, [18] and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. [19] I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

[20] When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. [21] But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. [22] But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

Finally, there are the many verses in the Bible that show God's will is for everyone to be saved.

Consider:

1 Tim. 2:1-4

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, [2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. [3] This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, [4] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 1:12

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Rev. 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Rev. 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Rev. 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Joshua 24:15

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

[Dr. Rich]

John317 wrote: "Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. NOTE: What does Christ tell us to do? We must open the door. Christ won't do it. It requires that we make a moral choice and open the door. If we can't, then there's no sense asking us to open the door. In that case, He might as well tell us to jump to the moon."

You have a real good point here John, but there is ONE big problem that everyone seems to miss with this and that is this: It is NOT the knocking that one must first be able to hear, it is the voice of Jesus! John 18:37 says "Everyone who is of the TRUTH hears My voice."

Jesus also said that "no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son WILLS to reveal Him." (Matt. 11:27)

Many (most) say that the parables Jesus gave were just that--nice stories. But when the disciples asked Jesus why He spoke to them in parables Jesus replied "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it has not been granted....Therefore I speak to them in parables because while seeing they do not see and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they they understand." (Matt. 13:11-13)

Jesus came to this earth to testify to the truth (John 18:37) which is the gospel of (about) the Kingdom. Jesus said "When anyone hears the word of the Kingdom and does NOT understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." (Matt. 13:19)

This is why NONE of the wicked will ever truthfully understand anything found in the book of Revelation and Daniel.

Does truth matter? Jesus also said that true worship is in Spirit AND in truth.

Many say that God promissed this and that, but most of them, if not all, were conditional. Jeremiah had the same problem when he said that God fooled the Hebrews. He only heard what he wanted to hear. So yes, Jesus does the knocking, but it is the voice of Jesus that one must hear to fully understand what is going on.