Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[Musicman1228]

Why did God put the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden if not to provide a venue for Adam and Eve to be given the choice to either obey God or not? If they had no choice in the matter but were compelled to obey God because of the lack of the opportunity to choose then God would not have tested them in the way He did.

They were given a defined choice because God will allow only those who will obey Him willingly to enter His Kingdom, even though they question the reason for the choice. God does not need or want our obedience without question. He does not want the love and respect of automatons that would obey by rote. Go ahead and question God all you want, but obey first and always.

There is a time and a place to question God (Come let us reason together, says the Lord). There is also a time to obey instantly, and then maybe question the order later if the order has not been clarified by the passage of time.

The ability of human beings to make reasoned choices is what makes us different from any other species on earth. God instilled this power of choice in all human beings because He needs people who will do the right thing under the most stressful and intimate conditions. An honest person will be honest even if no one is around to see them. A liar will be honest when closely observed, but will be dishonest when no one is looking. This is the ultimate choice that distinguishes a 'moral' person from one who is 'immoral'.

Self-honest is the key characteristic God needs in all of His bondservants. Self-honesty is what causes a person to be blameless before the Lord.

[miz3]

Musicman1228,

I have repeatedly stated in this thread that Adam and Eve before sin were different than Adam and Eve after sin.

Before sin Adam and Eve had "sinLESS natures". Such natures operate very differently from the natures after sin. These sinless natures have no predisposition or bias toward sin!!!

After Adam and Eve sinned they and all their posterity, which includes you and I, have a "sinFUL nature". This sinful nature, as Paul repeatedly in his writings states, makes us slaves so that we can do nothing but sin, sin, and sin some more. In this state Paul further states that we are incapable of knowing God and Righteousness unless something can free us from the 'sinful nature'. Paul further states that the freedom from the sinful nature comes to us through Jesus Christ apart from any choice you or I make. God did it without us!!!!!!!

The only thing we can ever do is REJECT Gods free gift.

[John317]

John317,

There are some things wrong with your analysis of the analogy.

1. God placed the life preserver all around us in the death of Jesus Christ. We did not have to reach for it. We did not have to choose it. This is what we call Justification.

But how does the Bible say an individual becomes justified?

How do we become sanctified? Do any of these things occur against our will?

Can a person choose to stop cooperating with God and go back to living for self?

[miz3]

Musicman1228,

John317's analogy as amended by miz3 goes like this:

A man is drowning in the sea and cannot save himself. Along comes another man who does save him by seeing that the drowning man gets a life preserver. How does this analogy work in the Salvation Process according to the Bible:

1. God placed the life preserver all around us in the death of Jesus Christ. We did not have to reach for it. We did not have to choose it. This is what we call Justification.

2. In this case the only option "choice" the person in the water can make is to remove the preserver. He can't choose to keep it on because it is already on. The person can only REJECT!

3. God starts reeling us in to safety. This is the beginning of the Sanctification Process. Again the only thing we can do is REJECT God's work! We cannot choose to have God Sanctify us because He is already doing it. You can't choose to have what you already have!!!!!!!!!!!

This analogy is in harmony with the Bible version of Salvation and the state of the human condition!!!!!!!!!!!

[John317]

The only thing we can ever do is REJECT Gods free gift.

Yes, and people can do that at any point before either death or the close of human probation just before the second coming. That's what makes us free moral agents, and it's what makes the difference between being forced into heaven and choosing heaven.

[John317]

Becoming sanctified includes seprating sin from ourselves. It means overcoming sin and bad habits, which is the same as obeying God's commandments by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is sometimes a fierce struggle. It is not merely a matter of having God pull us into the harbor while we relax in the life-preserver and watch the beautiful sights go by. Sometimes it takes work and hard labor to stay afloat and to hang on. Some people don't make it but are swept away in the torrents, often because they love their sins more than they love Christ and His righteouesness. They let the cares of this world get in the way of their obeying God.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The only thing we can ever do is REJECT Gods free gift.

Yes, and people can do that at any point before either death or the close of human probation just before the second coming. That's what makes us free moral agents, and it's what makes the difference between being forced into heaven and choosing heaven.

Right on, John.

[Dr. Rich]

miz3, you claim that Adam was different in nature before he ate from the tree, where do you get this opinion from? If Paul, then where did he get this opinion from?

Adam was made mortal and would have died a natural death even IF he had not eaten from the tree of knowing good and evil. The only thing that would keep him living, unlike those outside of the special garden, would be that he had access to the tree of life.

This brings up another point. Adam had to know (have knowledge) of what the meaning of death was in order to correctly understand what God said. This 'death' was not the 'sleep' or first death, but would have been the 'second' death. When God does the killing, that is the second death.

Adam's nature did not change--but his perception of things did. Just as in a new born baby, the baby's nature is just the same as was Adam's and must be taught what is good and evil in order to have a free choice as to obey God or not.

[John317]

Adam had an unfallen, sinless nature before he chose to disobey God. This doesn't come from Saint Paul but from the Genesis narrative. He was perfect the day he came from the Creator's hand.

God told Adam that he would die if he ate from the tree God commanded him not to eat from. In other words, Adam wouldn't die if he didn't disobey. The agreement was, obey and live; disobey and die. Had Adam continued to obey God, Adam would have continued to have access to the Tree of Life.

God never intended for Adam and his progeny to know from experience what evil and death are. God didn't want or plan for Adam to sin and die. It wasn't necessary. God's plans didn't require Adam's death. They only required that Adam pass the test of obedience before being given the gift of immortality. Adam didn't have to know what sin and death are in order to be free to reject disobedience and choose obedience.

[John317]

:-) Howdy Musicman.

[Gerr]

I was talking to Gerry and musicman1228.

It is not enough to claim that what somebody says/said is not supported by the Bible. Show your evidence. If we are not free moral agents, what are we? A sinner, born with all the propensities to sin, and then proceeds to cultivate many of them, then with all the powers of hell arrayed against him, should have NO chance of choosing to follow God. Yet he does so. On the other extreme is Adam, created in the image of God, perfect, with no evil propensities, with nothing to compel him, chose to disobey.

[Gerr]

That is an assertion on your part which is not supported by the Bible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is staring you in the face and you can't see it?

[Musicman1228]

Adam had an unfallen, sinless nature before he chose to disobey God. This doesn't come from Saint Paul but from the Genesis narrative. He was perfect the day he came from the Creator's hand.

God told Adam that he would die if he ate from the tree God commanded him not to eat from. In other words, Adam wouldn't die if he didn't disobey. The agreement was, obey and live; disobey and die. Had Adam continued to obey God, Adam would have continued to have access to the Tree of Life.

God never intended for Adam and his progeny to know from experience what evil and death are. God didn't want or plan for Adam to sin and die. It wasn't necessary. God's plans didn't require Adam's death. They only required that Adam pass the test of obedience before being given the gift of immortality. Adam didn't have to know what sin and death are in order to be free to reject disobedience and choose obedience.

Hi, John.

Nicely put.

Adam was not 'formed' in the Garden, he was formed OUTSIDE the Garden and then moved INSIDE the garden AFTER he received the 'n'phish' - the breath of life God gave all animals, both human and not. Why? Why didn't God just form Adam inside the Garden? Why did God create the Garden AFTER He had formed Adam? (this did not occur on the 6th day of Creation, as most believe.)

Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.   (8) And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. Gen. 2:7-8.

There must be some significance to this.

[miz3]

John317 and Musicman1228,

You are correct that humans can REJECT all the work God has done for them both in the Justification work and the Sanctification work at anytime along the way.

The ability to REJECT does not make the human a "free moral agent". If the human is made perfect by God in every way but one thing that human is still a slave to the sinful nature over that singular item. As such their slavery does not allow them to be free until the exact moment that God frees them from that singular item. A human could be delighted that God has freed them on every item and issue but that singular one. They may cherish that singular item of sinfulness so much that they REJECT God's work on it. That REJECTION although singular is enough to keep one from Heaven. One is all it takes.

[miz3]

Dr. Rich,

Quote:

Dr. Rich said:

miz3, you claim that Adam was different in nature before he ate from the tree, where do you get this opinion from? If Paul, then where did he get this opinion from?

Adam was made mortal and would have died a natural death even IF he had not eaten from the tree of knowing good and evil. The only thing that would keep him living, unlike those outside of the special garden, would be that he had access to the tree of life.

This brings up another point. Adam had to know (have knowledge) of what the meaning of death was in order to correctly understand what God said. This 'death' was not the 'sleep' or first death, but would have been the 'second' death. When God does the killing, that is the second death.

Adam's nature did not change--but his perception of things did. Just as in a new born baby, the baby's nature is just the same as was Adam's and must be taught what is good and evil in order to have a free choice as to obey God or not.

1. I get the "sinless nature" of Adam and Eve from the first chapters of Genesis in the Creation account. Its not opinion because it is fact. Its there in plain language. You can't miss it unless you deny the clear Word of God. Unfortunately for humans they are not accountable to me for any denials of obvious facts but they are accountable to God. I don't know if that bothers you or not.

2. Paul clearly states that he got his knowledge and wisdom from God. Again, it is not Paul's opinion it is fact. If Paul were to state that what he wrote was only his opinion he would wrong on that because God saw to it that what he called his opinion was indeed fact. Paul may not have realized God was imprinting Paul's mind. Whether humans realize it or not God does speak through them even without their knowledge or consent. God clearly spoke through the actions of Pharaoh without Pharaoh's consent.

3. Very clever!?? The Tree of Life may have properties to give humans immortality. However, it only has such properties because God created it for that purpose. The sea has enormous power (if you have ever seen it crashing against the rocky shore you understand what I am talking about or seen a tsunami and its after effects). Where does the sea get its enormous power: Oh, yea! The sea has enormous power because God made it so and continues to put His power into the sea. Without the Power of God initially and continuously the sea and the Tree of Life would have none of the properties they possess. God is the Source. Without God anything in the Creation could not maintain its existence and its ability to be what it is.

Therefore Adam was not slated to die unless he disobeyed God and Adam did. Whether God made Adam initially to lose life by not eating of the Tree of Life no one knows because the Bible is for the most part "SILENT" on that point. Regardless of whether a sinless human would have had to continue to eat of the Tree of Life or not it was still necessary that God appropriate His power initially and continuously. The only inkling the Bible gives is when the Pair are barred from eating the Tree of Life. Your conjecture is clearly false and has no merit. You should do better than that.

4. I agree the death God was stating would be the outcome of disobedience and was indeed the "Second Death". However, the reason Adam and Eve did not die immediately as threatened was the moment they sinned the Salvation of God kicked in to save them.

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." Revelation 13:8.

Did you catch that last phrase, Dr. Rich? That's right, the one that says, "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." So you see Jesus Christs sacrifice was valid even before Adam and Eve because their creation came after the process had started. This fact is something you should have been aware of.

Something else you should understand is that with God the "promise" is the same as the "act". Only for God this is true. Revelation 13:8 confirms this to be true.

5. My dear Dr. Rich I am surprised at how ignorant you are of Scripture and what it actually says. I expected better. The book of Genesis states clearly that Adam and Eve's natures did change.

"And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:22, first part.

The word translated here "knowing" means not just knowing intellectually but knowing intimately by nature. Paul confirms this in the Book of Romans when he speaks about Adam's sinful nature being passed on to the rest of us. See earlier when we proved that Adam and Eve had "sinless natures" and now in Genesis and in Romans at minimum we demonstrate that Adam and Eve had "sinful natures". Whether you realize it or not even the simplest among us know that means Adam's nature changed from sinless to sinful. How can you miss so many easy concepts.

As for the baby you are again mistaken. The baby does not come with a "clean slate". The Bible does not teach that and human experience knows that. The laws of genetics concerning this are even known to a sophomore high school student. Maybe given the sad state of Education that may not be true anymore but it once was. The science on this issue clear. You are trying to further the conjecture of John Locke. Of course such a conjecture is not Biblical. Besides if you know anything about newborns not only are they helpless but they are among the most SELFISH, SELF-CENTERED creatures on earth. They want what they want and they not only want it now but they wail the daylights out because you did not anticipate their desire ahead of time and have everything ready at the correct moment. Even as pre-schoolers children are very unreasonable in their desires unless the parent has shown who is in charge. If the parent fails to show they are in charge I guarantee the child will be in charge. No scientific study needed as proof because it is self-evident all around us.

Please Dr. Rich you need to be more careful when stating things about and in the Bible. This is far too sloppy for someone with a Doctorate (whether medicine or otherwise)!!!!!!

[WayneV]

miz3,

If your point is that no one born today makes their choices from a neutral position, you are correct when viewed from the typical Western understanding of original sin and man's moral depravity. However, There are other perspectives on original sin that do place man as a free moral agent. I am not passing judgment on any particular view, just pointing out that they exist.

Personally, I can see points within each view that are reasonable and can be drawn into a biblical understanding which, leaves man enabled as a free moral agent.

Agape`

[John317]

John317,

You can't put blinders back on when they are already on. Because they are already on that is what makes you blind. How many times did Jesus call the Jews "blind guides"!!!!!!!

But people who have had the blinder removed can choose to refuse to walk in the light. People do lose their crown and salvation.

Do you believe the following quote?

Quote:

The tempter can never compel us to do evil. He cannot control minds unless they are yielded to his control. The will must consent, faith must let go its hold upon Christ, before Satan can exercise his power upon us. But every sinful desire we cherish affords him a foothold. Every point in which we fail of meeting the divine standard is an open door by which he can enter to tempt and destroy us. And every failure or defeat on our part gives occasion for him to reproach Christ. {DA 125.2}

[Gerr]

John317 and Musicman1228,

You are correct that humans can REJECT all the work God has done for them both in the Justification work and the Sanctification work at anytime along the way.

The ability to REJECT does not make the human a "free moral agent". If the human is made perfect by God in every way but one thing that human is still a slave to the sinful nature over that singular item. As such their slavery does not allow them to be free until the exact moment that God frees them from that singular item. A human could be delighted that God has freed them on every item and issue but that singular one. They may cherish that singular item of sinfulness so much that they REJECT God's work on it. That REJECTION although singular is enough to keep one from Heaven. One is all it takes.

You are talking riddles. Please, speak more plainly so my simple mind can understand.

It is not enough to claim that what somebody says/said is not supported by the Bible. Show your evidence. If we are not free moral agents, what are we? A sinner, born with all the propensities to sin, and then proceeds to cultivate many of them, then with all the powers of hell arrayed against him, should have NO chance of choosing to follow God. Yet he does so. On the other extreme is Adam, created in the image of God, perfect, with no evil propensities, with nothing to compel him, chose to disobey.

[miz3]

WayneV,

My position is not taken from "Western" understandings or any other understandings. My position is taken from the Bible. I do not care what other so-called authorities might say or purpose. I am interested only in what the Bible states as True!!!!!!!!!

[John317]

God even gives believers in Christ the power to change hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong.

Quote:

Conversion Changes Inherited Tendencies.--A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. The religion of God is a firm fabric,

146

composed of innumerable threads and woven together with tact and skill. Only the wisdom which comes from God can make this fabric complete. There are a great many kinds of cloth which at first have a fine appearance, but they cannot endure the test. They wash out. The colors are not fast. Under the heat of summer they fade away and are lost. The cloth cannot endure rough handling.--Lt 105, 1893. (6BC 1101.) {1MCP 145.4}

Not to Be Enslaved by Inheritance.--The question for us to consider is, Have we the attributes of Christ? Excuses are valueless. All circumstances, all appetites and passions, are to be servants to the God-fearing man, not rulers over him. The Christian is not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habits or tendency.--SpT Series A, No. 9, p 56, 1897. (TM 421.) {1MCP 146.1}

Angels Help Fight These Tendencies.--Angels are ever present where they are most needed. They are with those who have the hardest battles to fight, with those who must battle against inclination and hereditary tendencies, whose home surroundings are the most discouraging.--RH, Apr 16, 1895. (ML 303.) {1MCP 146.2}

Faith Purifies Inherited Imperfections.--Those who through an intelligent understanding of the Scriptures view the cross aright, those who truly believe in Jesus, have a sure foundation for their faith. They have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul from all its hereditary and cultivated imperfections.--6T 238 (1900). {1MCP 146.3}

[miz3]

John317,

You are correct that some who have had the blinders removed do return once again to blindness. They do this by REJECTING the work God has done for them.

However, this is not a "free moral agent" event. The "sinful nature" is not fully dead and many succumb once again. For example:

Let us say a person who steals finally realizes because of God's work in them that stealing is wrong. They never would have known in the first place that stealing is wrong except for God's Light telling them so. This is the first step. God's Light has fallen on them. Then like the "man of Romans chapter 7" they find they cannot perform what they now know to be true. They cry out for help in petitions to the Throne of God. The Holy Spirit is the power that prompts them to call on God. If it were not for God it would never dawn upon them that stealing was wrong and in addition that they should call on God for victory over stealing.

In our example here the person could REJECT any of these steps at anytime. However, the next step is sometimes easy and sometimes extremely difficult. As God comes into the persons life after they have called upon Him for victory, victory comes! At this point the temptations continue to come but because of the work of God in giving victory the sinful nature on this particular point and on no other point loses. Eventually, the sinful nature on this point no longer even exists because a Spiritual Nature on this point now owns them and they are slaves to God and Jesus Christ.

This same individual may still have many other issues in which they are still slaves to the Sinful Nature but on this particular point they are now FREE, praise God. This process is called Sanctification. Remember that Paul states that "while we were yet sinners" Jesus Christ Justified all humanity. Justification is a done work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thus humans do not "choose" victory any more than they "choose" Justification. God does this for them. However, in the victory process (Sanctification) the individual because of the work of the Holy Spirit learns to pray (that is call on God), they learn not just to pray for victory but they learn to pray in thankfulness to God and many other things about prayer. God through the Holy Spirit teaches them these things. Jesus Christ told His Disciples that the Holy Spirit would teach them all things. They also learn to Praise God in fact because of the Holy Spirit it is almost, if not, the first spontaneous reaction to being healed (that is victory).

The reason sometimes this road is so bloody and sometimes long is because the Sinful Nature does not want to die even on a singular point or even the smallest scintilla of a point. It fights hard to keep us in slavery, total salvery. Thus, the battle wages inside. Hopefully the person does not grow weary or for any other reason REJECTS God. REJECTION IS NOT A SINGULAR LOSS IN THIS FIGHT. REJECTION is when the person outright tells God to go fly a kite and leave them alone. The person listens only to the Sinful Nature which is easy because that is the way were are. REJECTION is an order for the Holy Spirit to stop telling them what to do and also telling the Holy Spirit to stop working in them. REJECTION is also not doing what the Holy Spirit prompts us to do and to instead do what the Sinful Nature stipulates. As the Bible states we cannot serve two masters. Both masters are very powerful and intend to overwhelm us and make us their slave.

God did not "ask us permission to come into our lives" because He needs none. Paul states that God has "bought" us with the Blood of Jesus Christ and so we are not our own. If we are not our own then we do not have control. Something else is always in control. Humans are always in Slavery to one master or the other master. We can REJECT a master but this is not a "free choice". In order to REJECT one of the masters we need power from the opposing master to do it. The opposing masters are both only too willing to exercise their power in order to enslave us and to keep us enslaved.

[WayneV]

WayneV,

My position is not taken from "Western" understandings or any other understandings. My position is taken from the Bible. I do not care what other so-called authorities might say or purpose. I am interested only in what the Bible states as True!!!!!!!!!

You imply that your position is based only on Scripture. I appreciate your dedication to the Word, but that is impossible. Each of us bring preconceptions and prior theological learning to our interpretation of the Bible, including me, you, and those authorities who have 'discovered' these other perspectives. That's right, they each used the Bible as their 'only' authority, too. So too, I have noted, do all of those who are arguing an opposing view on this thread.

You state that you "do not care what other authorities might say or purpose (sic)". Might I suggest that by standing on the shoulders of giants you can see farther than by trying to ignore them. However, if you like inventing the wheel from scratch just so you can drive the car your way, that is your prerogative. I was only trying to help.

Agape`

[Dr. Rich]

miz3,

1) What is sin? How can one be sinless or not if sin had not yet existed? Did sin exist before the fall of Adam? What was the nature of mankind before Adam was formed in the dust?

2) Would you believe me IF I said that Jesus talks to me and gave me revelations and he met me on the way to Las Angeles and told me things? Ha? well, if you wouldn't believe me, then why do you believe Saul/Paul? It's nonsense -- totally nonsense when you put it all together especially when Saul was alive during the time of Jesus and Jesus could have chosen him them! Wake up before it's too late!

3) As with the tree of life, tell me what it is doing in the earth made new? Huh? Adam was flesh and blood. That means he was mortal and was going to die anyway. Just because John317 ASSUMES something does not mean it is right. You and I were not there so everything is a theory anyway.

4) Can't argue with that--as that is exactly what happened. God's plan for restoration was in the works and it still is.

5) As for being ignorant of "Scripture", please define the words "scripture". Jesus called the Law and the Prophects scripture. Interestinly, Jesus didn't even call His words scripture but called them instead, "The Testimony of Jesus". There was no such thing as a "bible" during the time of Jesus and Paul.

5B) Define the word Nature? Just because someone gains knowledge and wisdom does not necessarly change their 'nature'. Look, I don't understand 'gay' people or pedefiles because that is not my 'nature'. How someone could get sexually stimulated by the same type sex partner is totally freeky to me! Same for sex with a child! Personlly, just thinking about it makes me want to puke. Well, the same thing goes for people who are evil. I just cann't stand them! Period! People who believe in lies are just fooling themselves and can't even be honest with themselves.

As for the word "knowing" please prove your case by presenting the evidence backing up your word. Just because you didn't know something one day and then learned another day does not change your "nature". Just because they found out they were naked didn't change their "nature" either.

As for babies, they are not born with the knowledge of good and evil. They must learn it just as they must learn how to talk and walk. But they all are free to choose to obey the Covenant and the testimony of Jesus, or not.

Therefore, show me ONE lie that I believe in--please? If it is proved to be a lie then I will repent and not believe it anylonger.

[miz3]

WayneV,

You cannot possibly know that my position is not based on the Bible only! You are correct that biases do creep into people's understanding of things. However, you cannot possibly know whether that bias bends the Truth unless you yourself know the absolute Truth yourself. I know that you cannot know the absolute truth because you just admitted that your biases influence your point of view. However, that does not mean that I do not understand areas that are absolutely Truth.

If we take your position then not even the Bible writers are free from error or a bending of the Truth. Thus, the Bible then must be flawed.

I reject your position because I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and as such is the absolute Truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I further believe that it is possible with God and the Holy Spirit as your guides and teachers for humans to also know the absolute Truth about many things when they get their information from the Bible or as Moses did directly from God (face to face). I also believe that God has many vehicles through which He conveys Truth to humans (visions, nature, impressions on the mind, etc.).

As to the authorities that you so much admire (I assume that you are referring to authorities that did not write the Bible or are in any way communicating in any way through Scripture. That is authorities outside of the Biblical Record itself.) such as Martin Luther, John Tyndale, etc. as well as those "big brain theologians who know so much Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, History, Anthropology, Sociology, Geology, Archeology, etc. they generally are more interested in promoting themselves and their theories. I do agree that Luther, and Tyndale etc. have much good to say about them. Having said that, these Protestant Reformers clearly did not have all the Light in regard to Scripture. Even some of these Reformers were interested in self-promotion for themselves and their Doctrine.

God, Scripture, and any other clear communication from God is the only reliable Truth!!!!!

You and others are free to believe, as you say, any thing that you view as unbiased authorities. But it is abundantly clear that your authorities are different from mine.

[Musicman1228]

The ONLY reliable 100% accurate standard against which to measure truth (absolute or not) is the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as He gave it to His eyewitness disciples, and the Words of God in Old Testament Scripture (Law and Prophets). Why such a strict outlook and understanding? Because God and Jesus are the only infallible and inerrant source, against which no human being can compare. ANY other words by any other person (either living or dead) is by it's very nature (human nature) suspect and flawed.

God is GOD and therefore cannot lie, mislead, deceive, obfuscate, disorient, misdirect or in any way be involved with anything other than the TRUTH.

Jesus is GOD (as in the Son) so ditto the above.

There are two spirits in the world; the Spirit of Truth/Holy Spirit, and the spirit of lies/unholy spirit of Satan. Satan has spent thousands of years successfully convincing people that his spirit is the Holy Spirit. Satan is not called the 'Great Deceiver' because he is NOT good at it. By its very nature a deception looks just like the original. What does a 'wolf in sheeps clothing' look like? A SHEEP. It does not look like a wolf; if it did then it would not be a deception.

Jesus told His disciples that it was up to them to 'not be deceived'. Matt. 24:4. So how do you know which spirit is speaking to your heart? Satan can bring to bear mighty and powerful feelings that people believe come from God. You know which spirit is speaking to you by what the spirit says. If it does not speak according to everything Jesus (Himself) said while He was here on earth (the testimony of Jesus-John 18:37, Rev. 12:17) then it is not of God but of the Devil. Yet many are deceived into believing a lie as if it were the truth, and they do this 'by faith' so 'don't bother me with the facts'.

The only safe way to KNOW without a single doubt that what you believe is the absolute truth is to compare it with what Jesus said to His own eyewitness disciples. If it matches then it is true, if it doesn't then it is not.

This is why I call myself a Bondservant/follower of Jesus Christ and not a Christian. I am also persuaded that because of these differences an SDA can no longer term themselves 'Christian', because they are, in point of fact, NOT Christian.