Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[John317]

We stand condemned because of our position from Adam. We receive from him nothing but condemnation. Why? We are born bent to self. Our natures make us guilty before we even sin outwardly.

But we are not condemned simply because we are born as human beings related to Adam. No one but Adam will have to answer for what Adam did.

If we were all guilty of what Adam did, we would be judged for committing Adam's sin. But that is not the case. You and I are only accountable to God for the sins we ourselves choose to commit.

We are certainly born with a sinful, fallen nature, but so was Christ. He was born with the same nature that His mother Mary had. She was not born sinless, as some would have it.

[Woody]

Quote:

It was raised by God to restore the everlasting gospel. Now, which gospel? There's at least 5 different gospel within SDA church. Will the real SDA please stand up.

Yes and that will always be. The wheat and the tares grow together till the Harvest.

[wayfinder]

If we are in Christ, we are no longer free.

Galatians 2:20 NAS

"I have been crucified with Christ ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Romans 6:18 NAS

and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

[skyblue888]

There were wheat and tares in the Jewish church but in A.D.34 when the disciples of Christ and their converts were forced to turn to the Gentiles with their message, the Jewish church had sealed her final rejection of God's mercy by stoning Stephen.

What if the church today rejects the last message of mercy? What if she rejects the latter rain message for the second time? If she does she will seal her rejection of God's mercy and the bearers of the message and their converts will be forced to go to the world with their message and it will swell into a loud cry. The wheat and the tares will be comingled during the loud cry to the world but they will be separated by the great final test when the mission of the Gospel is completed. Only those who pass this final test will receive the final seal and enabled to go through the time of Jacob's trouble. These alone will constitute the remnant.

sky

[Sonny]

If we were all guilty of what Adam did

[John317]

John, you don't get it. Was not the Jewish church the professed people of God? yes, of course. Is not the Adventist church the professed people of God? Of course. But that does not mean that they are automatically the remnant. The remnant are those who receive the final seal when the mission of the Gospel is completed.

I'm not asking about who is the professed people of God. Anyone can profess anything. The Investigative Judgment will reveal who is just talking and who is serious and sincere.

I'm asking you if the SDA church is the church which God raised up to give the Three Angels Mesages, and if you are a part of that church.

Is the SDA church the remnant church spoken of in Rev. 12: 17?

[miz3]

The "sinful nature" is not some little, itty-bitty part of the human entity. The sinful nature owns and covers every aspect of the human entity. It is massive. The sinful nature is darkness. Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit penetrates that darkness and begins to change the human entity little by little. Thus, our nature is changed little by little. Humans have chosen to call this work by the Holy Spirit "Sanctification" because the Bible uses the word "Sanctify". God takes us over little by little and in each particular victory sets up His kingdom in us. Now we have two masters. Each master owning a part of us. Each master at war with the other master. The sinful nature will fight back. As God wins territory within us we become freer and freer. We also begin to appreciate that God is better than the sinful nature. When that happens we then begin to go to God "seemingly" on our own (we are now open to the promptings of the Holy Spirit)to ask Him to give us victory in more and more areas. Thus the Spiritual nature keeps gaining more and more power. God does not ask permission to come in because He has "bought us" and as the rightful owner He begins to change His property. The sinful Nature fights back because it does not want to die. This is the story that Paul tells in his Epistles. The sinful nature keeps telling us that we are "free moral agents" and that we should choose for ourselves and not let God choose for us. The sinful nature does this because then it can keep us as its slave! This is why Paul makes such a big deal about the Sinful Nature and its stranglehold on us. Fortunately for us God's grace and the Holy Spirit are stronger than the Sinful Nature unless we REJECT the Holy Spirit and its work in us. Paul says that because of Sinful Nature and its hold on us we cannot choose God let alone KNOW GOD

! If it were not for God imposing Himself upon us without our consent we would have no idea that He even existed. This why John chapter one when it talks about the Light penetrating the darkness is so vital to our Salvation and our Sanctification.

Unfortunately, some humans REJECT the work of the Holy Spirit and if the rejection continues at some point the Holy Spirit leaves and never comes back and that person now is taken completely over by the Sinful Nature.

[skyblue888]

John, the Advent Movement was of God, of course, but the question is, What has become of the people who were called to be the remnant?

Was not the second coming delayed because of our unbelief? See G.C.457,458.

Did we not resist the light that was to lighten the whole earth in 1888? (1 S.M.234,235) Did we not reject Gospel Order in 1903? Did not the Lord say that we had put God aside and accepted the devisings of men? (T.M.481) Did we not compromise the pillars of our faith between 1955 and 1957 in order to gain the friendship and approval of the WCC?

And what are we doing now with the 1888 message of the righteousness of Christ offered to us one more time through faith in the merits of Christ and what are we doing with the 1901 reformatory steps to re-organize, steps that were reversed in 1903?

sky

[Sonny]

The "sinful nature" is not some little, itty-bitty part of the human entity.

Good point....

Ellen White seems to agree:

Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. [MAR 91]

[Sonny]

Is the SDA church the remnant church spoken of in Rev. 12: 17?

Absolutely, positively not! The making of the remnant is future. It's not a denomination...

[miz3]

John317,

I am shocked that you would say that Jesus Christ was born with a "sinful nature".

That is absolutely FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JESUS CHRIST WAS CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus Christ was the second Adam! Adam was born (created) with a sinless nature.

oivay!!!!!

[b]Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ was born with a "sinful nature"?

I know that Ellen White gives us mixed view on the subject of the Nature of Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The "sinful nature" is not some little, itty-bitty part of the human entity.

Good point....

Ellen White seems to agree:

Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. [MAR 91]

Of course, but the sinful nature is to be completely subdued by the divine nature.

sky

[doug yowell]

Can God act by fiat? Does God have to give us a choice? The clear answer is that God can do whatever He wants to because He is God and we are nothing. God does not have to give us anything. God defines the terms. We humans too often think that God must act in ways that fit our definitions of what is fair, what is just, what is reasonable, etc. God is not bound by our definitions!!!!!! Who are we to be defining anything?

As Romans chapter 9 says, God can love Jacob and hate Esau. What is that to us or even to them if God wants to do that, when He wants to that? God can do as He likes regardless of whether we think it is fair, just, or anything else. We are not God's judges. God is not accountable to us, we are accountable to him!!!!!!!!!

You're right but you're not giving the whole picture,miz.Without clarification of what the fiat involves one can easily conclude that God is claming right by might (just because He said so). God can only do what He likes if what He likes is what He has claimed that He likes. God's claim is that His being right is what gives Him the might, not His might which gives Him the right.

As the greatest Servant of All He meekly (not weakly)subjects Himself to universal scrutiny and He must be judged worthy of being Who He has claimed He is.So first God reveals what is fair and just and then lives it out before the universe.He requires of Himself what He requires of others.In the specific sense it is wrong to say that God owes man nothing. He owes man His best, not because man has done anything worthy of even His least but because if He refused these great acts of love and compassion He wouldn't be the God He claimed to be.The Bible is one giant story of this truth in action.

[skyblue888]

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was born with a sinful nature?

"Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh." Rom.1:3.

sky

[miz3]

Doug I almost agree. Unless I misunderstood you. I believe that God can and does rule by fiat both because He is MIGHT and because He is RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is not a question of either or. I find it amazing and good that God is strong as seen in the infinite magnificent glory of the Father in Heaven and God is strong even when He is humble and lowly as in Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God is everything! God is not bounded by any parameters. If He was then He would not be God; the parameters that bind him would be god. This why we struggle so much when we try and talk about God. Our finite language is trying in such a puny way to understand what God is. Thus we stumble around and seem to be babbling when talking about God!!!!!

Most humans picture of God is far too small to even begin to approach who and what God really is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is why most humans think God is just a super glorified human who is bounded like we are. Thus they create boundaries for God. These same ones say God can't do this or can't do that because it would be against his character or against some other such boundary. Others bind God by saying God has to respect our "free moral agency". As if God has to work around our ability to do what we want. We have too little conception of the our own slavery to sin and too high opinion of our freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why do you think God refers to us as His lambs. It is because like lambs we are incapable of choosing anything but stupid!!!!!!!!!!!! See all the parables and references in the Gospels that refer to lambs or sheep. Lambs and Sheep have to be the dumbest or near the dumbest animals upon the earth. They are also HELPLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If not for the SHEPHERD MAKING EVERY LITTLE DECISION FOR THEM they would indeed become lost and die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And then we are so arrogant in our own self as to think with all this Biblical evidence that we have the power to anything on our own let alone have the ability to be "free moral agents". It would be laughable if it were not so tragic!!!!!!!!!

[miz3]

Whatever God does is RIGHT even if to us it seems to be contradictory!!!!!!!!!!!!

[doug yowell]

Doug I almost agree. Unless I misunderstood you. I believe that God can and does rule by fiat both because He is MIGHT and because He is RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But where does the right spring from? God often does what is right when not exercising His might.Right?

[doug yowell]

Whatever God does is RIGHT even if to us it seems to be contradictory!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very true, but the clarifier is the "seems".

[doug yowell]

God is everything! God is not bounded by any parameters. If He was then He would not be God; the parameters that bind him would be god. This why we struggle so much when we try and talk about God. Our finite language is trying in such a puny way to understand what God is. Thus we stumble around and seem to be babbling when talking about God!!!!!

Not exactly accurate.There are parameters that bind God. He cannot lie.He cannot deny Himself. He cannot change.He cannot be impervious to human suffering.He cannot return evil for evil,He cannot turn away from the desparate cry of a lost sinner, He cannot ignore evil,ect... Know what I mean?

[miz3]

Doug,

It is not that God cannot do all those things you have listed. It is that God just does not do them. God is not bound by any of those things He just does not do them. There is a difference between not engaging in something and not being able to do that something. Since God is "free" to do as He pleases it pleases Him to not lie. It pleases Him to turn at the desperate cry of the lost sinner. It pleases God to deal with sin and kill it. It pleases God to say and do what He said when He does not change.

It is not because these are boundaries it is because God delights in being this way!!!!!!! God could lie but He does not delight in that in fact God hates lying. God can delight and hate any way He wants. God is not bound by something that makes Him delight and hate this or that. God delights and hates because He does!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is why God told Moses at the burning bush tell them "I am" sent you. None of us can say we "I am" only God can. God says "I am listening when you call on me". God says, "I am a hater of lying". God says, "I am this or I am not this" etc.

God states who He is and who He is not. God defines Himself nothing else defines Him. If God could not do this or do that then that would define who God is. I repeat God and God alone defines who He is!!!!!!!!!!!God is never, ever bound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[doug yowell]

Doug,

God states who He is and who He is not. God defines Himself nothing else defines Him. If God could not do this or do that then that would define who God is. I repeat God and God alone defines who He is!!!!!!!!!!!God is never, ever bound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Except that you just defined who God was.Why does God set boundries on Himself? If He could choose to lie but chooses not to, is He not imposing boundries on Himself? Is it not fair to say then that God has some boundries whereby all created beings can confine Him in? Doesn't that make HIm more trustable, instilling confidence and direction in knowing His will and freeing Him to respond more effectively to human requests and helping humans discern right from wrong?

[John317]

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was born with a sinful nature?

"Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh." Rom.1:3.

Exactly. He was not exempt. Satan would have triumphed to see God make Christ exempt from the natures of all other humans.

Hebrews 2:17

Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Romans 8:3

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Philip. 2:7

but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form,

NOTE: Jesus was sent in the "likeness of sinful flesh," not unlikeness. If "likeness of men" means a real man, then "the likeness of sinful flesh" means real sinful flesh, not merely the appearance or illusion of it.

Christ assumed sinful flesh, not a sinful mind. Those are two very different things.

[John317]

Whatever God does is RIGHT even if to us it seems to be contradictory!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Very true, but the clarifier is the "seems".

Yes, doug, and it also is far different from saying that whatever God could do is right. Theoretically speaking, God could force our wills, but it would be wrong if He did so. Again, theoretically, God could control us so that we would not be free but would be compelled to do many things against our will, but God would not be right to do it.

Of course, I do not believe God could really do those things because they are opposed to His very nature, which is that of agape/love. But if He were to change and do those things, He would then be the same as the Devil. (This is one reason God assures us that He does not change, because any change on the part of a perfect God can only be to become less perfect, never to become more perfect.)

The whole point I am making here is that the Judgment will examine what has occcurred during the great controversy between Christ and Satan, and it will be determined that God was right-- not because God is all-powerful, but because God will be shown to be righteous and loving and merciful and worthy of being worshipped, admired and loved.

Rev. 19:1-2

After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out,

"Hallelujah!

Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

[2] for his judgments are true and just;

for he has judged the great prostitute

who corrupted the earth with her immorality,

and has avenged on her the blood of his servants."

[John317]

God is not bounded by any parameters. If He was then He would not be God; the parameters that bind him would be god.

This is false. There are indeed things that even God cannot possibly do.

God cannot possibly lie.

And there are other things God cannot possibly do.

God also sets His own prameters, and He is bound by them as much as if they were laws.

[John317]

John317,

I am shocked that you would say that Jesus Christ was born with a "sinful nature".

That is absolutely FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JESUS CHRIST WAS CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus Christ was the second Adam! Adam was born (created) with a sinless nature.

Don't be shocked. I'm not saying Christ sinned. Christ was without sin.

Read the book by Ralph Larson, which contains every relevent statement in the Bible and in the Spirit of propehcy, as well as in the writings of the most prominant pioneers.

Are you unfamiliar with the statement in Bible Readings for the Home, 1914 edition?

I used to believe that Christ assumed the nature of unfallen Adam, but I changed my mind when I researched the topic thoroughly.

My father was an SDA minister, and I sometimes got into discussions with him about it. We disagreed. Now I agree with him. I was persuaded by the evidence I found in the Bible and in the Spirit of prophecy, i.e., the writings of Ellen White.

Ever heard of, or read, a book called, Face To Face With the Real Gospel?

I've studied books and the Bible from both viewpoints. I believe that the strongest and most consistent position is that Christ assumed a fallen nature.