Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[Gerr]

You are confusing the freedom to choose and the ability to carry out that choice.

[skyblue888]

How am I doing that?

[John317]

John317,

We have yet to establish from the Bible that humans are "free moral agents".

Speaking of the that marvelous woman Ellen G. White, I did not bring her up to use her as an instrument to "TRUMP" the Bible and close the deal. This is a typical tactic used by those who cannot make their point from the Bible.

The point has already been made from the Bible. The reason God raised up Ellen White was to tell the truth in plain English so people would be without excuse.

I'm not using her to "TRUMP" the Bible-- I am showing those who believe in her prophetic ministry what she wrote on the topic. It's important to know what she believed and wrote.

People who don't accept what she writes will likely go on the rest of their lives needlessly being "bugged" by the same old questions.

[Sonny]

Ellen is the lesser light. Ellen didn't die having all truth. Truth is progressive. We must ultimately make the Bible the test of truth. No "buts"....

[John317]

Yes, the Bible is the rule of faith and doctrine. For SDAs who believe that Ellen White was God's prophet, it is also very important to understand what she wrote.

My point here would be that it has already been shown from the Bible that human beings are free moral agents.

I've noticed that you yourself don't have a problem quoting Ellen White when it is something you agree with. Jack Sequiera quotes her often in his books as an authority. Most of the time on the Forum, people don't like her to be quoted when she says things they disagree with. Otherwise they're OK with it.

[phkrause]

Yes, the Bible is the rule of faith and doctrine. For SDAs who believe that Ellen White was God's prophet, it is also very important to understand what she wrote.

My point here would be that it has already been shown from the Bible that human beings are free moral agents.

I've noticed that yourself don't have a problem quoting Ellen White when it is something you agree with. Jack Sequiera quotes her often in his books as an authority. I find that most of the time on the Forum, people don't like her to be quoted when she says things they disagree with.

[John317]

When we're slaves of Satan, we're not free to fulfill God's will in our lives. But once we choose to accept Christ and the gospel, He restores our freedom. He sends us the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's what Romans 7 and 8 are all about.

But if the wicked weren't free moral agents, God could not justly condemn and punish them for their sins. What are we saying about God when we argue that humans are not free moral, agents? We are repeating the very kinds of accusations against God that Satan has made.

Being a free moral agent doesn't necessitate that people be absolutely free in every way. It doesn't mean that there is no cause and effect relationship. Nor does it mean that there are no influences or predispositions in our lives. That's where there seems to be some confusion about what it means to be a free moral agent.

The bottom line of what is required to be a free moral agent is that one must able able to reason about right and wrong and to choose between two or more alternatives and be able to act on his choice. An insane person obviously is unable to do these things because he's not capable of reasoning from cause to effect, and therefore he is not considered a free moral agent. Animals also aren't free moral agents because, unlike humans, they're driven primarily by instinct rather than by reason or conscience.

[skyblue888]

So John, you agree that fallen man is a free moral agent in that he can choose to consent for Christ to do for him that which it is not in his power to do for himself.

Right?

sky

[John317]

Yes, exactly. I wasn't free to do God's will until I accepted Christ completely into my life. Until that point, I made moral choices, but my choices were motivated mostly by love of sin and my love of self. Christ comes to us by His Spirit and gives us freedom to live for Him.

I remember as a teen-ager when I began to choose to do what I knew to be wrong, but I didn't care because it was what I wanted to do, and I didn't care about anything else at that point. I was a free moral agent choosing to do what I knew was wrong. If I had died at that time, I couldn't have honestly said that I hadn't been free to make those choices. I got to the point where I didn't feel able to control my desires and my thoughts, but I was always able to control my actions and my choices. My decision to accept Christ was a deliberate choice. I was a prisoner of Satan at the time, but even slaves of Satan are able to cry out to God for help. And God answers the sincere cry.

[miz3]

Gerry and Others,

The texts you provided have already been dealt with and I will not bore everyone by repeating my clear an unambiguous answers which have included numerous Biblical texts. In some instances we have even gone verse by verse, sentence by sentence and phrase by phrase showing clearly that humans are NOT FREE MORAL AGENTS AND HAVE NEVER BEEN FREE MORAL AGENTS(Remember we are talking about humans ONLY after sin entered the earth through Adam and Eve.)

In addition, I have answered comprehensively the questions you are asking at the end of your post.

I think it is a shame that either you can't honestly see the clear Truth as I have presented it, or that you are purposely being evasive, going in circles, and/or stalling hoping that somehow you will be able to bail yourself out of the hole you have created for yourselves.

We have been so conditioned that certain things are true that we take for granted that it is true. In such instances it is very easy for us as humans, let alone us as SDA, to never question or attempt to check our assumptions to see if they are really true! We do not study God's Word to test the voracity of our beliefs. I am amazed that so many SDA do not even have an elementary knowledge as to where in the Bible the support for their beliefs exist if they even exist at all. I am amazed that humans over the age of 40-45 will cite our dear Ellen White and not the Bible as their reason for believing what they do. I am further amazed that most SDA below the age of 40 don't even care about Ellen White and her enormous contribution to our Church. In addition I also stand amazed that SDA almost 100% of the time when cornered by the Bible which seems to not support their view will say, "Well Ellen White says, ........". Thus, again shamefully using her as a trump card to God's clear unambiguous Word (the Bible). I appreciate that in this current discussion the last assertion I just made has not really been directly used. In other words I appreciate for the most part we have indeed on all sides used the Bible and the Bible only. For that I am thankful.

Doing a simple Biblical word search of the words, "choose", "will", "free", etc. and then post those texts especially without the least bit of thought as to the relevance to the question of "free moral agency" and the nature of humans is at best sloppy Biblical Study. Not only that, but it is very sloppy at minimum to expect that in doing such that others would give even the slightest respect for your Biblical Analysis. It is this very thing that makes some who are not SDA believe we are a "cult". For others not SDA they believe we are only giving lip service to the Bible and what it says and as such we have no real credibility. It demonstrates that we shallow thinkers and shallow Bible students. It also tells others that we are just playing a game and that God and His Word are not really vital to Human life. Most important it gives the enemies of God and the Truth great ammunition against the Truth and causes these enemies to grow in number.

We should never bring disgrace upon God and His Name by ever being sloppy or shallow about Him and about His Word!!!!!!!!!!

[miz3]

John317,

Where in the Bible are these accusations of Satan? I don't recall the Bible directly quoting Satan as accusing God of denying freedom to Humans. Yes I know that Genesis states that Satan said God was withholding things from Adam and Eve when Eve was at the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. However, the statement Satan(the snake) made was indeed true. God was withholding something from them. What was it? God was withholding from Adam and Eve the knowledge of Evil. God had such a knowledge but wanted to withhold such knowledge from Adam and Eve. That is the only accusation I know of from the Bible. Are there others? Please enlighten us. If specific accusations from and of Satan against God exist we should without question know them along with the Biblical References. I don't know everything and so I am willing to learn on this point.

No Ellen White quotes on this please!

[John317]

How do you make any sense out of the great controversy between Christ and Satan when you assume that humans are not free moral agents? I can see why the subject has buggged you for so long if you don't think you or anyone is free. What's the sense in living, then, right?

Let's assume, then, that you and I and all other humans-- including Jesus Christ-- are not free moral agents. Then what are you left with?

Speaking of being a free moral agent, you are free to read or not to read the following statements about Satan's accusations against God:

Quote:

In the beginning Satan’s purpose was to separate the human family from God. And in every age he has carried out this same purpose. The same method of deception, the same logic that he used to deceive the holy pair in Eden, he has used in all succeeding ages. His plan of work has ever been one of deception. He claims to be religious. He has a synagogue in which there are worshipers. . . . He sways all classes. {CTr 291.3}

Constantly Satan works among people of all ages. At times he assumes a cloak of piety, purity, and holiness. Often he transforms himself into an angel of light. He has blinded the eyes of men and women so that they cannot see beneath the surface and discern his real purposes. {CTr 291.4}

God is omnipotent, omniscient, immutable. He always pursues a straightforward course. His law is truth—unchanging, eternal truth. His precepts are consistent with His attributes. But Satan makes them appear in a false light. By perverting them he seeks to give human beings an unfavorable impression of God. Throughout his rebellion he has sought to represent God as an unjust, tyrannical being. {CTr 291.5}

But Satan’s hypocrisy has been unmasked by Christ’s life, trial, and death. Christ took upon Himself human nature, and by His perfect life demonstrated the falsity of the claims of him who constantly accuses those who are trying to obey God’s law. And the blood of Christ shed on the cross is the everlasting, incontrovertible testimony that God’s law is as immutable as is His own character. The crucifixion of Christ was a murder instigated by Satan and carried out by people who had separated themselves from God. In the day of judgment, when the death of Christ upon the cross is seen in all its reality, every voice will be hushed. Everyone will see that Satan is a rebel.—Manuscript 1, 1902. {CTr 291.6}

The controversy is repeated over every soul that is rescued from the power of evil and whose name is registered in the Lamb's book of life. Never is one received from the family of Satan into the family of God without exciting the determined resistance of the wicked one. Satan's accusations against those who seek the Lord are not prompted by displeasure at their sins. He exults in their defective characters. Only through their transgression of God's law can he obtain power over them. His accusations arise solely from his enmity to Christ. Through the plan of salvation, Jesus is breaking Satan's hold upon the human family and rescuing souls from his power. All the hatred and malignity of the archrebel is stirred as he beholds the evidence of Christ's supremacy, and with fiendish power and cunning he works to wrest from Him the remnant of the children of men who have accepted His salvation. {CCh 350.4}

He leads men into skepticism, causing them to lose confidence in God and to separate from His love; he tempts them to break His law, and then he claims them as his captives and contests the right of Christ to take them from him. He knows that those who seek God earnestly for pardon and grace will obtain it; therefore he presents their sins before them to discourage them. He is constantly seeking occasion against those who are trying to obey God. Even their best and most acceptable services he seeks to make appear corrupt. By countless devices, the most subtle and the most cruel, he endeavors to secure their condemnation. {CCh 351.1}

Man cannot meet these charges himself. In his sin-stained garments, confessing his guilt, he stands before God. But Jesus our Advocate presents an effectual plea in behalf of all who by repentance and faith have committed the keeping of their souls to Him. He pleads their cause and vanquishes their accuser by the mighty arguments of Calvary. His perfect obedience to God's law, even unto the death of the cross, has given Him all power in heaven and in earth, and He claims of His Father mercy and reconciliation for guilty man. To the accuser of His people He declares: "'The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan.' These are the purchase of My blood, brands plucked from the burning." Those who rely upon Him in faith receive the comforting assurance: "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." {CCh 351.2}

All that have put on the robe of Christ's righteousness will stand before Him as chosen and faithful and true. Satan has no power to pluck them out of the hand of Christ. Not one soul that in penitence and faith has claimed His protection will Christ permit to pass under the enemy's power. His word is pledged: "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." Isaiah 27:5.

[miz3]

John317,

Did you not read, where I expressly asked for Bible documentation!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also purposefully asked you NOT! NOT! NOT! prove your point from Ellen White.

1. Again, I ask you to give me a list FROM THE BIBLE ONLY of Satan's accusations.

2. I now further ask you, to give me a list FROM THE BIBLE ONLY whereby the "Great Controversy is given as:

a) explicit phrase. DO NOT make any references about the War in Heaven and NO

references to the Temptation of Christ.

a concept.

Be honest and don't try and give a weaselly answer that has nothing to do specifically with what I asked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As you have done in the past because you are so intent on proving you beliefs which you think are true. Please do not insult my intelligence or any others because this does not reflect well on you or on your beliefs.

[John317]

... I am amazed that humans over the age of 40-45 will cite our dear Ellen White and not the Bible as their reason for believing what they do. I am further amazed that most SDA below the age of 40 don't even care about Ellen White and her enormous contribution to our Church. In addition I also stand amazed that SDA almost 100% of the time when cornered by the Bible which seems to not support their view will say, "Well Ellen White says, ........". Thus, again shamefully using her as a trump card to God's clear unambiguous Word (the Bible). ....It is this very thing that makes some who are not SDA believe we are a "cult". For others not SDA they believe we are only giving lip service to the Bible and what it says and as such we have no real credibility. It demonstrates that we shallow thinkers and shallow Bible students. It also tells others that we are just playing a game and that God and His Word are not really vital to Human life.

....We should never bring disgrace upon God and His Name by ever being sloppy or shallow about Him and about His Word!!!!!!!!!!

Don't you see a difference between talking among fellow SDAs and talking with non-SDa?

It's not as if we haven't presented Bible evidence on this discussion. In fact, there's been a lot of evidence from the Bible presented, and no doubt there will be much more from the Bible presented.

It's fine if you want to ignore what Ellen White says, but SDAs should be able to come on the Adventist Forum and post her statements without running into the kind of things you wrote above.

[John317]

You're free to choose to ignore Ellen White's statements. But members are also free to choose to post her statements.

Did you write your last post as a free agent or were you compelled to do it by some outside influences or force? Or perhaps by some irresistable urges?

What would you think if I told you that I could not help myself, and that is why I posted the Ellen White quotes? Would you accept such an explanation? If not, why not?

[miz3]

John317,

Everyone is "free" (pun is not intended) to post whatever they want. I am only restricting the space because it is too easy to go to Ellen White to prove things that are not actually stated in the Bible.

As to the SDA speaking to an SDA, I think to often we have these in house dialogues that only affirm our own specific bias just as the Mormons do in there community. We do not advance ourselves or the Truth by such dialogue. The SDA Church states in its 27 and/or 28 Beliefs that ALL (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) OUR BELIEFS ARE BASED ON THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE ONLY!!!!!!!!!! The SDA CHURCH has affirmed such all of its existence in many other forums both written and verbal. Should I use Ellen White herself to make my point that she believed in the Bible and the Bible only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and so stated in her writings!!!!!!!!!!!

That means Ellen White cannot and should not be the only Source or even the LAST and TRUMP SOURCE to settling differences of view. Thus, your SDA vs. SDA is invalid.

By using Ellen White you are breaking faith with the SDA CHURCH's explicit Doctrine and you are breaking with ELLEN WHITE herself and her writings which you so revere that you are willing to use her to trump everything including the WORD OF GOD (BIBLE)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to advance your views.

[John317]

I have a question for you that has been bugging me for years. No one has yet been able to give me a credible answer.

Where in the Bible does it say that humans have a "free will" and/or "freedom of choice" and/or are "free moral agents"? I find no where in the Scriptural Record either these terms or even an indirect allusion that such exists.

.... if it does not exist in Scripture then where did SDA's get this doctrine?

I think you're looking for the wrong evidence. The Bible is not going to argue directly that humans are "free moral agents." Similarly the Bible does not argue for the existence of God. These things-- both the existence of God and the free moral agency of man-- are assumed in the Scriptures. Nothing in the Bible would make sense if God does not exist or if man is not free to choose. That is , the entire Bible assumes that people are accountable and responsible for what they do and what they say.

You deny people are free moral agents, yet a while ago you seemed kind of upset at me for posting quotes of Ellen White's writigns after you told me not to. Your clear assumption was that I had chosen to do something you had asked me not to do-- and in that way, you showed that you operate on the assumption that people are free moral agents.

May I suggest that you try reading the Bible-- and discussing it--- from the viewpoint that no one in the world is a free moral agent.

[John317]

John317,

Everyone is "free" (pun is not intended) to post whatever they want. I am only restricting the space because it is too easy to go to Ellen White to prove things that are not actually stated in the Bible.

As to the SDA speaking to an SDA, I think to often we have these in house dialogues that only affirm our own specific bias just as the Mormons do in there community. We do not advance ourselves or the Truth by such dialogue. The SDA Church states in its 27 and/or 28 Beliefs that ALL (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) OUR BELIEFS ARE BASED ON THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE ONLY!!!!!!!!!! The SDA CHURCH has affirmed such all of its existence in many other forums both written and verbal. Should I use Ellen White herself to make my point that she believed in the Bible and the Bible only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and so stated in her writings!!!!!!!!!!!

That means Ellen White cannot and should not be the only Source or even the LAST and TRUMP SOURCE to settling differences of view. Thus, your SDA vs. SDA is invalid.

By using Ellen White you are breaking faith with the SDA CHURCH's explicit Doctrine and you are breaking with ELLEN WHITE herself and her writings which you so revere that you are willing to use her to trump everything including the WORD OF GOD (BIBLE)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to advance your views.

Wow.

Are you honestly telling me that you believe that when we quote Ellen White, we are breaking faith with the SDA church's doctrines and even breaking it with Ellen White herself?

We've been writing quite a few pages and presenting Bible evidence. It is not as if the quotes of Ellen White were posted at the very beginning.

[John317]

I think it is a shame that either you can't honestly see the clear Truth as I have presented it, or that you are purposely being evasive, going in circles, and/or stalling hoping that somehow you will be able to bail yourself out of the hole you have created for yourselves.

We have been so conditioned that certain things are true that we take for granted that it is true. In such instances it is very easy for us as humans, let alone us as SDA, to never question or attempt to check our assumptions to see if they are really true! We do not study God's Word to test the voracity of our beliefs. I am amazed that so many SDA do not even have an elementary knowledge as to where in the Bible the support for their beliefs exist if they even exist at all.

It's pretty obvious to me that you should spend more time reading on the forum. Once you do, you won't make these kinds of assumptions about the people on it.

You're writing as if you know the people you're talking to but of course you don't.

[miz3]

John317,

We might be making progress. You now admit that any Doctrine of "free moral agency" in regard the human entity is "assumed" and explicit in the Bible. As such there will be no explicit texts that out rightly use the term "free moral agent" and in addition do not ever reference such as a concept. Therefore the Bible just assumes that "free moral agency" in humans is a fact just as it is a fact that the "grass is green".

If what I now just said is a a true rendition of your position then we have made progress and you now admit that the Bible does not explicitly express the concept or the fact that humans are "free moral agents". The only explicit sources of such a view(that humans are "free moral agents)exists in the thoughts of humans, in the writings of Ellen White, etc. but DO NOT EXIST IN THE BIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No direct Biblical references that humans are "free moral agents"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(your words)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree so far if I am rendering you words and expressions correctly.

The part I have trouble with is:

1. That the Bible assumes that "free moral agency" is assumed. I do not believe that the Bible does any such thing. In fact the Bible explicitly and implicitly states that humans are slaves to sin and the sinful and such are capable of only evil. It is only imposition of God and the Holy Spirit that changes everything.

2. That the "existence of God is assumed in the Bible". The existence of God is not assumed. The explicitly in the strongest of terms throughout the entire Bible states as a fact the God exists. There is no assumption about it. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning GOD"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is not an assumption that is a blatant statement of FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[miz3]

Everyone,

I need to go now. I will be back tomorrow to what you all have posted. John317 I am very interested in your next response.

Bye. (Till tomorrow, God willing).

[John317]

OK, great. See you tomorrow.

Show us how you understand these passages when read from the viewpoint that no one is a free moral agent:

1) The Flood narrative.

2) The Story of the destruction of Sodom. Gen. 19.

3) Deut. 28-- the blessings and the curses.

4) The Book of Job

5) Matt. 28: 19---The Gospel Commission to all the world

5) Rev. 14: the Three Angels Messages, the Mark of the Beast, the Seal of God, and the Seven Last Plagues

6) Rev. 20:7-15 The Great White Throne Judgment

[John317]

..If what I now just said is a a true rendition of your position then we have made progress and you now admit that the Bible does not explicitly express the concept or the fact that humans are "free moral agents".

I thought it was obvious to you that the Bible does not contain the expression "free moral agent."

But I do believe that the Bible contains the concept that man is free to make moral choices.

The concept that man is a free moral agent is found in the following texts:

Lev. 25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout [all] the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

Ps. 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

1 Cor 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

1 Cor. 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

2 Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

Gal. 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal. 5: 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2: 12--- So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

1 Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

1 Cor. 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame.

Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Eph. 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

[doug yowell]

I've got about 10 minutes b4 I go to work so here's 2 off the top that are expressly spoken to unbelievers and not to the already converted: Gen.Gen.3:15,21 4:6,7 John 6:28,29 Matt.23:37 Rom.1-3 describes the work of the human conscience------God's calling is God's enabling and man is free to choose to respond to it.

[Gerr]

How am I doing that?

Analyze your post: pkrause, Gerry, the experience described in Romans 7 shows a man who is intellectually converted to the law of God and who is choosing to do right but quickly finds out that choosing to do right is not enough. That man has good intentions and makes strong resolutions to do what he knows to be rigth and yet time and time again he is confronted with the fact that good intentions and strong resolutions are not enough.

"Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless." S.C.18.

How can a man be said to be a free moral agent if education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, are all powerless in his search for moral freedom?

"It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. 'Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." S.C.18.

The only sense in which it can be said a man is a "free moral agent" is if he chooses to consent for Christ to do for him that which it is not in his power to do for himself.

Right?

sky