Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[miz3]

Doug,

I am not Calvinist, Reform, or any other such entity. I am just reading the Scripture and taking the Holy Writ for what it is saying. I let the Word talk to me and the Word tells me what the Word means. I have not read the works of Calvin and I don't care what Calvin thinks it means. I am only concerned about what God is saying in His Word. When I read the Word I don't want what someone else thinks about the passage to clutter what it actually says. I also want no preconceived ideas to enter into what the Word says.

The preconceived ideas is the most dangerous threat to knowing the Truth!!! Without desiring it, it is very easy for preconceived ideas to enter into our thoughts. In fact it is so dangerous that it can happen without our really being aware of it. This is why prayer to God is such an important and vital part of Bible Study. Without constant prayer over our Bible Study our preconceived ideas can easily crowd out God's voice. The Pharisees of Christ's day had this disease and many never got over it.

I fear many of us today suffer from this crippling and blinding disease.

[skyblue888]

Spiritually speaking no man can become a "free moral agent" until Christ dwells in his heart by faith. Look at the man of Romans 7. The will to do good is not lacking. That man is intellectually convinced that the law is holy and the commandment holy and just and good (Rom.7:12) but no matter how he wills to do good he always ends up doing evil. "For to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good." Rom.7:18-22.

So this man is far from being a free moral agent. He is a would-be Christian. He may have been baptized with water and he may have been a church member for many years, and yet he has not yet become a free moral agent.

That man has not yet found that liberty by which Christ makes the sinner free of the law of sin and death. He knows nothing yet of "the glorious liberty of the children of God." Rom.8:21.

But when that man, urged on by the Holy Spirit, looks to Jesus, trusting wholly in the merits of His infinite sacrifice for his acceptance with God, he hears a voice speaking to him from the oracles of God's Word, saying "Stand fast in the liberty by which Jesus Christ has made you free." Gal.5:1.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit," (5 T 744) and "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Cor.3:17.

That man has become a free moral agent as long as he continues in the faith, for the Holy Spirit brings the righteousness of Christ into his life and "Christ's righteousness accomplishes everrything," as it is "made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." Faith & Works, p.27; Testimonies to Ministers, p.92.

sky

[Gerr]

Gerry,

Of course not. Follow what I have written. I covered this question sometime ago.

All were justified at the Cross but not all are saved. Why the discrepancy? What is it that makes the difference?

Quote:

Read Hebrews chapter 2.

" 1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." Romans 2:1-4.

Verse three states that many "ignore" God's great Salvation. In some versions it uses the word, "reject". Thus, even though God made provision for all to be saved and as Romans chapter five states explicitly that "all have been Justified" (saved) not all will be saved.

If this is not enough,

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." John 3:19.

Humans reject the Light because they love darkness. The Light is the Light that lights every human (see John chapter 1).

The bottom line is there is no justification or reason for sin. No amount reason or excuse can be given. Sin is irrational! No one if they were indeed rational "free moral agents" would ever choose sin to God's gift. It is precisely because we are irrational that we REJECT God's grace given to us by God's fiat.

"Drift", "ignore", "reject," "love darkness," what do all these words mean to you? Are these not choices? You admit we have choices but not free moral agents? An oxymoron!!! We have choices but not free moral agents because the choice is made under some kind of of duress and therefore not really free? Was Lucifer under duress to make the wrong choice? A & E? Martin Luther going against Rome? Manasseh to turn away from a life of idolatry?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Gerry,

Of course not. Follow what I have written. I covered this question sometime ago.

All were justified at the Cross but not all are saved. Why the discrepancy? What is it that makes the difference?

Quote:

Read Hebrews chapter 2.

" 1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." Romans 2:1-4.

Verse three states that many "ignore" God's great Salvation. In some versions it uses the word, "reject". Thus, even though God made provision for all to be saved and as Romans chapter five states explicitly that "all have been Justified" (saved) not all will be saved.

If this is not enough,

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." John 3:19.

Humans reject the Light because they love darkness. The Light is the Light that lights every human (see John chapter 1).

The bottom line is there is no justification or reason for sin. No amount reason or excuse can be given. Sin is irrational! No one if they were indeed rational "free moral agents" would ever choose sin to God's gift. It is precisely because we are irrational that we REJECT God's grace given to us by God's fiat.

"Drift", "ignore", "reject," "love darkness," what do all these words mean to you? Are these not choices? You admit we have choices but not free moral agents? An oxymoron!!! We have choices but not free moral agents because the choice is made under some kind of of duress and therefore not really free? Was Lucifer under duress to make the wrong choice? A & E? Martin Luther going against Rome? Manasseh to turn away from a life of idolatry?

Excellent points Gerry.

[Gerr]

Spiritually speaking no man can become a "free moral agent" until Christ dwells in his heart by faith. Look at the man of Romans 7. The will to do good is not lacking. That man is intellectually convinced that the law is holy and the commandment holy and just and good (Rom.7:12) but no matter how he wills to do good he always ends up doing evil. "For to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good." Rom.7:18-22.

You are also confusing the freedom to choose and the ability to carry out that choice. We can choose to do good, but only God can supply the power.

[miz3]

To Gerry and pkrause,

A "Free Moral Agent" is:

"A Free Moral Agent is a human entity that is able to take two or more diametrically opposite moral positions or moral entities and independently of any other entity or force decide within one’s own being which one is Morally Righteous and which one is Morally Unrighteous"

DEFINITION BY MIZ3

Next:

“free will

–noun

1.

free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.

2.

Philosophy . the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.”

Dictionary.com Unabridged

Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.

Next:

“World English Dictionary

free will

— n

1. a. the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined

b. Compare determinism the doctrine that such human freedom of choice is not illusory

c. ( as modifier ): a free-will decision

2. the ability to make a choice without coercion: he left of his own free will: I did not influence him”

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition

2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins

Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009

Cite This Source.

Next:

Encyclopedia

“free will in humans, the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints. Free will is denied by those who espouse any of various forms of determinism. Arguments for free will are based on the subjective experience of freedom, on sentiments of guilt, on revealed religion, and on the universal supposition of responsibility for personal actions that underlies the concepts of law, reward, punishment, and incentive. In theology, the existence of free will must be reconciled with God's omniscience and goodness (in allowing man to choose badly), and with divine grace, which allegedly is necessary for any meritorious act. A prominent feature of modern Existentialism is the concept of a radical, perpetual, and frequently agonizing freedom of choice. Jean-Paul Sartre, for example, speaks of the individual "condemned to be free" even though his situation may be wholly determined.”

Encyclopedia Britannica, 2008. Encyclopedia Britannica Online

Does that help you understand what it means to be a "free moral agent". I am shocked that one does not understand what being a "free moral agent" means. "Free moral agency" has been a long standing SDA position. As I pointed out in my initial post the 27 or 28 Fundamentals state that the Church believes in "free moral agency" but the book gives not texts to support this view. In all of my study of God's beautiful Word I find no text or group of texts that use the term (or even a synonym) let alone support the concept.

pkrause cites Lucifer. This was brought up in an earlier post. Lucifer first is not human, second Lucifer had no sinful state before he sinned, third like Adam and Eve in the Garden unlike you and I today they had no "sinful nature" or "flesh" before their fall as Paul refers to our bias in his Epistles. I don't know if Adam and/or Eve and/or Lucifer before the fall were "free moral agents". The Bible does not tell us. They may very well have been. Nobody knows so any assertion of their state of being is pure speculation.

We do know, however, that you and I have a deep, deep sinful bias that causes us all kinds of problems and constantly affects all we do. Sorry no oxymoron here!

If such a "doctrine" or "belief" is important which it is because it goes right the center of the "Nature of the Human Entity" then one would think the Church (SDA) would be all over this text after text demonstrating that the term and/or concept exists. SDA can believe what they want (I am an SDA also) but don't say it is Biblical until you can conclusively and definitively back it up with the CLEAR, UNAMBIGUOUS WORD OF GOD (the Bible and the Bible only).

Everyone is also free to have any source they want to be their "Authority". For example the Catholic Church uses the Pope as the last word among other things. Mormans use the Book of Mormon. My ultimate "Authority" is the Bible and the Bible only.

When I use the words "REJECT" OR "IGNORE" I am using the words of the Bible. Rejection is not part of being a "free moral agent" nor is it a choice. To have "free choice" as defined above you have to be able to choose between at least TWO ALTERNATIVES. When God sends His Light to each human as stated in John chapter one they have only "ONE ALTERNATIVE" that being "REJECT GOD AND THE HOLY SPIRIT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thus, No free choice, No free moral agency!

[LifeHiscost]

We are born in sin and we only know how to produce sinful "fruit"

That is true only so long as we are still in bondage.

"This dear woman, a daughter of Abraham, has been held in bondage by Satan for eighteen years. Isn’t it right that she be released, even on the Sabbath?”"Luke 13:16 NLT

As soon as we receive the healing touch of Jesus, we are no longer slaves except as we shall freely choose to be a slave.

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."Galatians 5:1 NKJV

If we still cannot make a choice of our own volition, this text below would not be true.

"Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."John 8:36 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

The Bible as I have quoted it states in the clearest of language that it is not you but God in you doing the work that makes you a different person. As a different person it is also clear that you now produce different fruit. Instead of producing thorns you are now producing fruit. You would not and could not in any way produce good fruit if it were not for God's work in you.

Give no glory or credit to yourself but instead give it to God.

Yes, I happen to agree enequivically with you, miz3. However it is a yielding to our Father's power that fulfills the requirement demanded by satan, that vindicates God when He is accused by the enemy of our salvation, that we are given preferential treatment over and above what he was given; therefor concluding that it is really God's fault that he, the devil, is going to be lost and not his own choice as we have been given.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."2 Corinthians 5:15 NKJV

And that would include exchanging the old bondage and enslavement, for the new and fresh Friendship with our elder Brother and Savior.

"We pleaded with you, encouraged you, and urged you to live your lives in a way that God would consider worthy. For he called you to share in his Kingdom and glory."

1 Thessalonians 2:12 NLT

God blesses!

[miz3]

LifeHiscost,

Are you perfect? I envy you if you are. Must be nice not to have to deal with temptation and weakness that makes us give in to temptation. It must be nice to no longer have a sinful nature. You are indeed fortunate.

As long as one has to deal with any weakness at all they are in slavery. It is only when we are perfect and God and the Holy Spirit are in full control of us that we are truly free!!!! When God and the Holy Spirit are in full control we no longer have the sinful nature to exert its control. Most of us humans are in transition which is when both God and the sinful nature have varying degrees of control.

The work of Sanctification is the work that is intended to make us Perfect. As long as we are sill overcoming something we are not perfect and we are not free.

To be a slave you only need to be slave to one thing. As long as at least that one thing exists you are not free, you are in slavery just as much as if it were a hundred million things. It takes only one thing to pollute your root as well as pollute your whole being. Just ask Adam and Eve! It was only a little taste but it had huge consequences. It polluted the whole creation and still pollutes the creation to this day. To be Free you must be a slave to nothing.

Moses, Elijah, and Enoch are free. They are no longer in bondage. God has made then free indeed.

[miz3]

LifeHiscost,

The texts you just used are indeed encouraging. They demonstrate that although we may not have achieved that perfect state yet God is intent on getting us there. Good job in citing them.

However, God is not accountable to Satan or to anything at all. He would not be God if he was. Whoever or whatever holds God accountable then would be God because god then would have to give an accounting. The Bible states there is only one Judge and it is God. God is not on trial. Everything else is accountable to God. We humans are not God's judges. We are accountable to Him and to Him alone. God can do what He wants. When Satan tried to challenge God for the body of Moses, God rebukes Satan and then went and did what He wanted Jude chapter one verse nine. After that there was nary a peep from Satan because God does not care about what Satan thinks or wants. God is not accountable to Satan or to anything else. God is only interested in His own plans.

God set the price for Salvation. No one else set the price. God decided what would satisfy Himself. God was not obligated to things in only a certain way so as to satisfy others and whether others thought God was fair. How absurd! God is not a human, or some created entity that He must satisfy others. It is not Biblical to make out that God is forced to prove anything. Romans chapter nine Paul asks us who we think we are to question God. He then states that God does what He wants. He gives mercy to who wants to give mercy and doesn't give mercy to those He doesn't want to give mercy to.

Its all about what God wants and not about what any other entity wants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its not about settling issues of fairness or satisfying questions of the created. There is nothing in Scripture says any of this stuff.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Gerry,

You obviously have not read Romans chapter 9 where Paul covers this very concept. He states that God can and does hold us accountable for what we had no choice in.

Could you please point out the parts of Romans 9 where you believe it teaches that God holds people accountable for what we have no choice in?

Miz,you haven't yet answered this question. Coincidentally, my latest journey at reading thru the Bible has me exactly at Rom.9 (as of Sabbath). I've read this chapter thru hundreds of times and cannot find a single hint at the concept you're referring to. Nowwhere does Paul even suggest that he's addressing what he already addressed in chapters 4&5. Either you just made this up or you made a mistake in identifying the correct chapter where Paul does seem to address this.Chapter 9 clearly goes no further back in human history than Abraham. Did you mean to highlight chapter 5 instead?

[doug yowell]

Doug,

I am not Calvinist, Reform, or any other such entity. I am just reading the Scripture and taking the Holy Writ for what it is saying. I let the Word talk to me and the Word tells me what the Word means. I have not read the works of Calvin and I don't care what Calvin thinks it means. I am only concerned about what God is saying in His Word. When I read the Word I don't want what someone else thinks about the passage to clutter what it actually says. I also want no preconceived ideas to enter into what the Word says.

The preconceived ideas is the most dangerous threat to knowing the Truth!!! Without desiring it, it is very easy for preconceived ideas to enter into our thoughts. In fact it is so dangerous that it can happen without our really being aware of it. This is why prayer to God is such an important and vital part of Bible Study. Without constant prayer over our Bible Study our preconceived ideas can easily crowd out God's voice. The Pharisees of Christ's day had this disease and many never got over it.

I fear many of us today suffer from this crippling and blinding disease.

I didn't say you were a Calvinist. I said that what you are propagating was the exact same Bible interpretation as Calvinism so your non-preconceived ideas have been conceived by others before you. The important thing is that those ideas have been previously thought thru by Bible believers much more prayerful and Biblically grounded than you or I. Great men of God do not always see things the same this far away from the Cross.Rom.9 is a perfect example of how good people who try to give God all the glory can inadvertantly turn His true glory into a glory that mirrors human standards.Some of your lines of argument do just this. The misunderstanding of Rom.9 is a prime contributer to this stumble.

[miz3]

Doug,

We already covered this but there is no harm in covering it again.

Paul states that God can and does hold us accountable for what we had no choice in. The fact is that God by fiat passed on to us sin and death even before any of us were born. We did not "choose" to be born sinful. God made us to be sinful because of what Adam did.

"12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:12-21.

Because of Adam we are condemned and because of Jesus Christ we are Justified. No choice just fiat on the part of God. Highlight verse 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next:

" 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [Paul quotes Exodus 33:19]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" Romans 9:14-24

Again, God is acting by fiat. As the text states in verse 16 it does not depend on "man's desire or effort but on God's mercy". Paul then covers your question (verses 19-21)of why blame us if we had no part in "choosing" sin?

As Paul states emphatically "who are we to challenge God as to what He does". God can and does what He jolly wants to. After all He is God. We are not God's equal that we can demand that He operate in a certain way that seems "fair" and "just" by our definitions. God is not bound by our views of what is right, or what is just, or what is fair. God and God alone decides what is and what is not. God is not bound by anything. If God were bound by anything then He would not be God. The thing that binds Him would then be God because He would be subject and bound to do and decide based on that thing. Is that where you want to go?

I have given you text after text and all you can do is use human logic, human definitions of fairness, texts that have nothing to do with "free moral agency". Is this the basis on which your Truth lies?

[miz3]

Doug,

Who are you to judge whether others are more "prayerful and Biblically more grounded" than I am? You can speak for yourself but you can't speak for me. You don't know me that well. How do you know that you and I are on the same plane Spiritually? Your arrogance is showing and it also demonstrates that you are weak in refuting my Scripture.

You continue to give me your human assessments but are too little in refuting me from Scripture.

Read Romans nine again and respond to my previous post just before this one.

[doug yowell]

The bottom line is there is no justification or reason for sin. No amount reason or excuse can be given. Sin is irrational! No one if they were indeed rational "free moral agents" would ever choose sin to God's gift. It is precisely because we are irrational that we REJECT God's grace given to us by God's fiat.

THis is an unbiblical claim and a misconception of the nature of sin. Perfect,sinless free moral agents can choose to make irrational choices to sin."Truly,this only have I found:That God made man upright(Adam and Eve-Gen.1:31)but they have sought out many schemes."------"You were the anointed cherub who covers;I established you...You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,till iniquity was found in you." Do you accuse God of creating irrational,sinful beings and telling us they were perfect? Does God's fiat also allow Him to punish those who (whom?) He created incapable of obedience and then call Himself just and merciful?

[John317]

John 317,

You missed it. Read Romans chapter 5 where Paul states that because of Adam's sin we are all made sinners and because of Adam's sin we are being held over for death. Paul states we are all slated to die because of Adam's sin, not our sin!!!!!! In like manner we are all slated to live and be Justified because of what Christ did!!!!!! Nothing about about what you or I do!

Romans 9:14 asks the question is God unfair because he makes us humans accountable for what Adam did? Then beginning with verse 19 Paul brings up what humans will ask. Read further to get Paul's immediate answer.

You're confused. Paul is not saying we are guilty of Adam's sin. He is saying we reap the consequences of Adam's sin. Those are two very different things.

It's like the child of a drug addict reaping the consequences of his mother's sins. The baby will only be held responsible for his own sins, not his mother's, yet in this world we reap the consequences of the sins of others all the time.

[miz3]

Doug,

Are you going to answer my recent posts concerning Romans chapter nine or are you going to duck the issues.

I will answer your post about "sin's irrationality" when you catch up with dealing what I have already written.

1. Did you read what I wrote on Romans chapter nine just a few minuets ago?

2. What are your comments about that? Agree or Disagree and why!

3. Did you read my post concerning your arrogance and your judgmental attitude concerning my spirituality? Have you anything to say about this?

I await your response.

[miz3]

John 317,

You are the one who is confused. Paul specifically states that it because of Adam that guilt passed to you and I. Adam's guilt!!!!!! The same is true for Jesus Christ. Because of Jesus Christ's Righteousness we are Righteous. Have you not heard that we are clothed with Christ's Righteousness? It does NOT say we are clothed with the "Consequences of Christ's Righteous" and then we are judged by "our own righteousness".

I am sorry John 317 but you are the one who is confused.

[doug yowell]

Doug,

Who are you to judge whether others are more "prayerful and Biblically more grounded" than I am? You can speak for yourself but you can't speak for me. You don't know me that well. How do you know that you and I are on the same plane Spiritually? Your arrogance is showing and it also demonstrates that you are weak in refuting my Scripture.

You continue to give me your human assessments but are too little in refuting me from Scripture.

Read Romans nine again and respond to my previous post just before this one.

If you pray for 4-6 hours a day in prayer and then spend 2-4 more hours in Bible study then perhaps your self confidence on being able to measure up to the Spiritual standard of Calvin,Luther,Wesley, Whitfield, Edwards and a multitude of others will be self evident.I am not arrogant as I said nothing of your having to measure up to me. If you hadn't been so insecure in who you were you may have noticed that I included myself amongst those who don't have all the answers to every Bible question. I do, however, know the Scriptures and I know your arguments.I mentioned that I've read Rom.9 hundreds of times in order to understand it's meaning. Your basic premise is grounded in your belief that God is God and He answers to no one. Am I correct? You use Rom. 9 to support that assertion. Am I right? Do you believe that God has the right to "hate" someone who has DONE nothing wrong and "love" someone who has DONE nothing right?

[John317]

John 317,

We all pasts filled with horrid sinfulness. Paul states that in many places of his writings. We however, can thank God and God alone that we are no longer under the power of sin. Romans chapter 7 Paul talked about freedom from the sinful nature and in Romans chapter 8 Paul celebrates that freedom because of what God does through His Holy Spirit.

There are millions of people who believe that the way I was living before was not sinful at all. Many people believe that I was born that way and that I had no choice in the matter of my sexuality.

But I disagree and believe that we do have a choice whether to obey God or not. Even if some are born "gay," there is no sin that Christ is unable to help us overcome.

Yes, God deserves all the praise and glory for sinners turning to Christ, but sinners do make a choice whether to accept Christ's offer of salvation. God will not make that choice for us.

It is somewhat like the situation of a man drowning in a river. Someone sees him and throws him a life-line, a rope. It's the man's choice whether to grab that life-line. The man on the shore can't make that choice for him. But when he gets to shore, will the man say that he had no choice to make? NO. Yet at the same time he won't claim credit for saving himself by that choice to grab and hold on to the rope. He will give the credit of his salvation to the man on the shore and no doubt also to God.

But by saying he chose to grab the rope, is the man denying that the man on the shore saved him? Of course not.

God gives us the intelligence to know to grab the rope and he also gives us the strength and will to hold on to it until we reach the shore, but God won't take the power of choice out of our hands.

God invites us to be saved; He doesn't force us.

Originally Posted By: miz3

It was not you that caused the change. You are different today from what you were because of what God did in you. God changed you, you did not change yourself. ....Why do you want to take the credit for your change and rob God of His glory?

Here is where you go wrong. I am not claiming the credit for what God has done. All I am saying is that humans also have the responsibility to choose Christ. It is similar to the choice the drowning man has to grab the rope.

God gives us the desire for Christ, but we have to decide to abide in the Vine. We can't produce the fruit on our own but we do make the choices whether to abide in the Vine. Many people do not.

Until you see these very important differences, you will continue to be "bugged" by the issue of free will.

[doug yowell]

Doug,

" 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [Paul quotes Exodus 33:19]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" Romans 9:14-24

Again, God is acting by fiat. As the text states in verse 16 it does not depend on "man's desire or effort but on God's mercy". Paul then covers your question (verses 19-21)of why blame us if we had no part in "choosing" sin?

As Paul states emphatically "who are we to challenge God as to what He does". God can and does what He jolly wants to. After all He is God. We are not God's equal that we can demand that He operate in a certain way that seems "fair" and "just" by our definitions. God is not bound by our views of what is right, or what is just, or what is fair. God and God alone decides what is and what is not. God is not bound by anything. If God were bound by anything then He would not be God. The thing that binds Him would then be God because He would be subject and bound to do and decide based on that thing. Is that where you want to go?

I have given you text after text and all you can do is use human logic, human definitions of fairness, texts that have nothing to do with "free moral agency". Is this the basis on which your Truth lies?

Yes you have given me text after text but you have neglected to include the instructions of God that He gave to mankind, both by writ and also by example,by which man is to be able to judge what constitutes fairness,justice and mercy.Most would term those requirements as Godliness-Godlikeness. Every human being is asked by God to judge Him as to whether or not He has been fair. You well know that the Bible is full of God's appealing to mankind to judge Him.On what basis? On the basis of what He has revealed about the principles of his Being.This is human logic that is acceptable to God. "Come now let us reason together..."Judge between Me and My vineyard"..."Should not the Judge of the entire earth do what is right?"..."That You may be justified in Your words and may overcome WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED..." ect...ect...ect...Your claim that God is not bound by anything is your version of human logic that I categorically reject based upon what He has revealed throughout the history of mankind. "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to all our children forever..."

[miz3]

Doug,

It appears that you have set the Standard for Spirituality at certain numbers that are calculated by others (so that we know the numbers you cited are verified as true)and all the rest of us must measure up to that Standard you stated in your post to be Spiritually viable to comment or to know the Truth.

I guess your Standard is not Jesus Christ but the conclusions and assessments of "Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Whitfield, Edwards and a multitude of others". Your Standard is not what God's Word (the Bible) says, it is what these men have concluded and assessed to be the Truth that counts.

I am sorry Doug, it is you who are insecure because you cite me your logic, your judgment of my Spiritual level, and your words that you have read Romans chapter 9 "hundreds" of times. Yet you are so intent on destroying my statements and clear references to what the Scripture actually states that you are beside yourself with frustration.

Since you cannot counter my clear "thus saith the Lord" you attack me personally and you attack my Spirituality. Have you no more than this? I feel sorry for you Doug because your pride does not allow you to see clearly.

I can only quote the Scripture:

" “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”Romans 9:15.

Paul cites this passage which he took from Exodus 33:19. Thus God's arbitrariness is written in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Romans 9:15 is directly connected to the previous verses which say:

"Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[taken from Malachi 1:2,3]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!" Romans 9:10-14.

Then following the mercy statement Paul cites the hardening of Pharoah's heart.

In light of Paul's statements as to whether God is just or not, you tell me is God just for being so arbitrary toward His own creation. Cannot God do what He wants with what is His. Does God have to conform to what Doug thinks is fair, just, and righteous? Who defines the terms? Does God decide what the definition of "Love" is or does God have to conform to what Doug or some other human thinks the definition should be? Do you get to decide whether God lives up to your expectation of what Love should be and how God acts in relation to that Dougism?

You call me "unbiblical"! I am sorry Doug it is you who are unbiblical! You say you have read and read yet you don't even know the most elementary concepts.

[doug yowell]

[it is somewhat like the situation of a man drowning in a river. Someone sees him and throws him a life-line, a rope. It's the man's choice whether to grab that life-line. The man on the shore can't make that choice for him. But when he gets to shore, will the man say that he had no choice to make? NO. Yet at the same time he won't claim credit for saving himself by that choice to grab and hold on to the rope. He will give the credit of his salvation to the man on the shore and no doubt also to God.

This is a great example,John, one which I've formulated in a slightly different version (rescued at sea). THe strawman charge is that if one claims that they were somehow responsible for any response to the offer of help that that means they are trying to grab some of the credit for their salvation. The problem is that no one who has been saved has ever responded that way. It defies even the sinful human response to a lifesaving.Apply this same scenerio to a person who passed by a drowning man because they felt no obligation to save them and then try to refer to them as merciful, compassionate,longsuffering, and loving (with a straight face).

[John317]

John 317,

You are the one who is confused. Paul specifically states that it because of Adam that guilt passed to you and I. Adam's guilt!!!!!!

Please quote the verse which says that all humans are "guilty" of Adam's offense.

Originally Posted By: miz3

The same is true for Jesus Christ. Because of Jesus Christ's Righteousness we are Righteous. Have you not heard that we are clothed with Christ's Righteousness?

Yes, I have, and it is through faith that this righteousness is received. All humanity, however, is not clothed with Christ's righteousness. This seems to be where (IMHO) you are confused. What you are saying would necessarily mean that I was already justified by God and had the robe of Christ's righteousness around me even while I was practiciing homosexual "love." Is this what you want me to believe?

Notice that the man without the wedding clothes in the parable of the wedding feast is thrown out becaase he doesn't have on the robe of Christ's righteousness. Obviously this shows that not all humanity is justified and clothed with Christ's righteousness.

Nevertheless, having ssid that, it is true that even while I was living that way, I was reaping the benefits of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Even the wicked live because of Christ's death and life. In fact, even the animals are alive and well because of what Christ did on the cross. But of course that doesn't mean the animals are "saved" or justified by Christ's sacrifice, and neither can we say this of all humanity. Romans 5, correctly exegeted, teaches no such thing.

Romans 5: 1 clearly states that we are "justified by faith." That means we are justified-- put in right relationship with God-- by God's unmerited favor, through faith in Christ.

Christ died for us before we were born, but God does not justify us before we accept God's gift. You are misreading Romans 5. But there are many people who do. The gift of Christ's righteousness is made available to all mankind, but in order for it to be applied to individuals, each person must accept it personally by putting all his faith in Christ.

Read Romans 3: 21-26:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— [22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

NOTE particularly the part in red.

[miz3]

Doug,

First of all Doug give a list with chapter and verses of where God says we are to Judge Him as to whether God has been fair. Now don't give me just one or two. You said they were strewn throughout the Bible. I expect dozens if your boast is true.

Second, here is a text for you to chew on as to what it means:

" 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways,”

declares the LORD.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways

and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isaiah 55:8,9.

Tell me are you on a par with God that you can tell Him something He doesn't already know. How can you judge something that is so far above you and has thoughts that you can never ever know. When God asks us "reason" with Him, He is asking us to come and learn from Him. God can never learn from us. Maybe you think that you Doug can truly judge the Lord. Do have access to information or evidence that even God does not know so that you are qualified to His judge?

Doug, Doug, you are so rapped up in your ability to smash me that you do not speak your words carefully.