Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[doug yowell]

Gerry,

It is in the Sanctification process that God goes about the work of freeing us from the sinful nature. Unlike Justification where God just did it and it was over, Sanctification peels away layer by infinite layer of garbage. This is what brings us so much stress.

However, the more like Jesus Christ we become (the goal of Sanctification is for us to be like Jesus Christ) the more options and the more power we have. The more power we have (which is the Holy Spirit in us) the more free we become and the more we can do.

Hmmmmm. I'm thinking about this analysis and I think I might see a problem.

[doug yowell]

Doug,

"12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:12-21.

Because of Adam we are condemned and because of Jesus Christ we are Justified. No choice just fiat on the part of God. Highlight verse 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which part the first or the second part of v.19? Seems to me that Paul is plainly saying that the consequences of Adam's fall, including (or particularly)the bondage of the will, was canceled out by God Himself,thru Christ.If anything he notes that grace much more abounds.Doesn't Paul himself in the first part of this letter already state that "although they knew God,they did not...so that they are without excuse"... Isn't this a direct result of God's promise that He would "put enmity"? When Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, did He come as a free moral agent?

[John317]

Another point has been made by having this discussion.

1. Mormons stand on the Bible and Joseph Smith. They are not ashamed to state to the World that Joseph Smith is a "Prophet" just as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc. are prophets. They hold their views on that basis. They will freely admit that "such and such" is not in the Bible but that Joseph Smith has spoken about "such and such" and that is the basis of Mormon Doctrine and Belief.

Yes, they teach that Joseph Smith was given in order to correct the Bible. They believe the Bible is full of error.

We do not teach or believe this. The Mormons are clearly wrong.

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. SDA say they have a prophet but we are sooooo ashamed of her and we are afraid we will be laughed at and ridiculed so we call her the "lesser light" and we don't use her in public. Yet SDA quote her all time among themselves to settle any argument as if she is the "Last Word". Everyone sees our duplicity. We are not fooling anyone but ourselves.

You're confused. I'm not in the least ashamed of Ellen White.

She called herself the "lesser light." That isn't something SDAs made up. God didn't give Ellen White to the modern church in order for her writings to be put out in front. That position belongs to the Bible, and for very good reason.

Quoting Ellen White among ourselves is not duplicity or trying to fool anyone. It is the simple fact that Ellen White is not an authority among non-SDA. It would be like a Mormon quoting Joseph Smith to me. I don't recognize Smith's writings as of any real value.

Please speak for yourself. If you feel that way, please don't project your feeling and your viewpoint on me or on other members of the church. You seem to have come to the Forum with a lot of ideas that you picked up somewhere and for some reason you think they apply here when they don't. Get to know the people here before you start telling them how they feel or what they think.

[John317]

8. What are we SDA afraid of?

You're SDA? Are you active in a church?

You don't apparently believe the doctrines of your church.

If I didn't, I sure wouldn't be in the church. Especially if I didn't believe Ellen White was a prophet of God. It would be like being a Mormon and believing Joseph Smith was a liar and a fake. There are some SDAs like that, but I ain't one of 'em. If Ellen White was not a true prophet, I'm in the wrong church. I'm looking for the church that

1) keeps the commandments of God, i.e., all the moral law of God summarized in the Ten Commandments;

2) and keeps the faith of Jesus;

3) has the Spirit of prophecy manifested among them;

4) arose not very long after 1798;

5) and is giving the Three Angels' Messages to the entire world.

Do you know where I can find such a group of people? Who does this description fit?

[Sonny]

Do you know where I can find such a group of people? Who does this description fit?

No denomination fits!

When the Bible applies the word "remnant" to the last generation of Christians, it is talking about those who will endure the great tribulation or the time of trouble - a people whose faith does not falter even though they feel forsaken by God as Christ did at the cross.

In other words, these believers will manifest the faith of Jesus and, therefore, vindicate the power of the gospel, which is able to totally delivered us from the problem of self, the fundamental principle of sin.

[Sonny]

If Ellen White was not a true prophet, I'm in the wrong church.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

If Ellen White was not a true prophet, I'm in the wrong church.

Do I hear denominational pride, John? Are you, being an SDA, more worthy than your brothers and sisters in the other denominations? I hope not.

No. I am simply saying that I am looking to be in the true church, which is what I believe God wants people to be in.

If there is a "true church,"--- and I believe the Bible teaches that there is---, then I believe that's where God wants us to be. Or do you believe God wants us in Babylon, the churches that have fallen away from the truth?

Why would anyone knowingly choose not to be in God's last-day church?

[John317]

Do you know where I can find such a group of people? Who does this description fit?

Originally Posted By: Sonny

No denomination fits!

When the Bible applies the word "remnant" to the last generation of Christians, it is talking about those who will endure the great tribulation or the time of trouble - a people whose faith does not falter even though they feel forsaken by God as Christ did at the cross.

In other words, these believers will manifest the faith of Jesus and, therefore, vindicate the power of the gospel, which is able to totally delivered us from the problem of self, the fundamental principle of sin.

What you evidently don't see is that we could very well be the last generation. There's no reason why we couldn't be.

If you wait until the last moment to prepare for Christ's return, you won't be ready. The preparation time is now, not later.

Are you describing yourself in those words-- "people whose faith won't falter even though they feel forsaken by God"? If not, why not? We shouldn't put off training for that time NOW.

The remnant are the last-day church from about 1798 to the end of time. It is characterized by the identifying marks I already gave.

Do you know of any other group of believers who have all of those marks? You say no denomination fits the description, but there you are dead wrong. I know that Jack Sequiera would not agree with you. What church has he decided to be a part of?

[LifeHiscost]

John317,

We have yet to establish from the Bible that humans are "free moral agents".

That is in your mind and it would seem you wish not to acknowledge that what God enjoins, He provides power to freely accomplish. Assuredly it is not alone as revealed in John 15:5, however the promise is nonetheless free to act upon.

"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!"Matthew 10:8 NLT

"And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us."1 Corinthians 2:12 NLT parenthesis theirs LHC

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And if humans are not free moral agents, what are they?

That would be robots Gerry! What else could they be? If we are not free moral agents to make our own choice's than we are just robots, plain and simple.

That or still in bondage to the evil one.

God blesses!

[Sonny]

...do you believe God wants us in Babylon, the churches that have fallen away from the truth?

Which churches are those, John?

[Sonny]

The remnant are the last-day church from about 1798 to the end of time. It is characterized by the identifying marks I already gave.

The remnant hasn't been formed yet....

[John317]

...do you believe God wants us in Babylon, the churches that have fallen away from the truth?

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Which churches are those, John?

Babylon consists of the "mother church" and all her daughter churches. They're "fallen" because they have rejected the truth and won't change. In other words, the people in spiritual Babylon won't find the truth from those churches. They basically teach that faith releases us from obedience to the law of God, and they also teach that the soul is immortal. They teach doctrines that are spirtually intoxicating, causing people to be disoriented. So God is calling His honest and sincere people out of those churches and into His true church, which keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and has the Spirit of prophecy. He calls His people together, first in order to learn and practice the Three Angels' Messages, and second, to proclaim and teach these heaven-sent Messages to everyone with whom they come in contact.

[John317]

The remnant are the last-day church from about 1798 to the end of time. It is characterized by the identifying marks I already gave.

Quote:

The remnant hasn't been formed yet....

The Bible shows clearly that it has. But you have to be blind not to be able to see it. All the identifying marks are there, and in order to deny it, you must work hard to suppress the truth. You have to deny the prophetic ministry of Ellen White, which you once knew so well and appreciated, and which Jack Sequiera himself believes in strongly. There was a time when you did see it, and I pray that you will see it again.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is the Remnant spoken of in Rev. 12: 17 and 14: 12. But not all the Remnant will be saved. Only a remnant of the Remnant will be ultimately saved. That is how it has always been. It is the way it was in Israel. Only a remnant of Israel accepted Christ. So to that extent I agree with you, but the point here is that the Remnant church was raised up by God at this time in order to give the Three Angels Messages. Millions will respond but many more millions will leave and be lost.

[miz3]

Wow. The discussion is still going. Good back and forth.

When I made my list of eight things regarding Ellen White that John317 has so strongly responded to I was not singling out any particular one person on this list, I was most definitely speaking in general about SDA. What I have said in that list is true now and has been true for most of our SDA history. If everyone you know is not like that than you are most fortunate. It would be a very unusual group.

SDA have for too long played fast and loose with Ellen White and her role as a Prophet??? I put question marks to show the despicable way she is viewed and the way she is used. Remember I am speaking in GENERAL and not calling out any specific person or persons. I am speaking organizationally in general a well.

She herself stated that she was not a Prophet! However, that does not necessarily mean that God did not use her to speak to the Church!!!!!

I have seen across the SDA landscape from top to bottom from side to side and in general I see two huge nasty camps and one small camp. Again so we understand each other perfectly, I am speaking in general terms rather than indicting any particular person or persons.

The nasty camps:

1. Are those that criticize her and try to minimize her and her work at every turn. These ones have been there since her ministry began and they are still here today. These ones look for every opportunity to criticize her and her work. They want to silence her voice.

2. This nasty camp is very different. These ones have within their own souls deified (made her a god like figure) her so that she is made into some pristine perfect person who sits next the throne of God. This camp has two parts to it.

a. One part does this because they are zealous and they want to make sure that no criticism can ever be leveled at her or the standard that she wrote about. These same go around clubbing everyone they see who in their mind is out of line with their views of what the Church should be. They intend that Church have a pristine appearance even if underneath it is rotting wood. They are interested only in the veneer.

b. One part does not care one way or the other whether she is a true servant of God. They use Ellen White to gain personal advantage and personal power. Some of these are those "gray haired old men" who have led this church. However, this group is not confined to these "gray hairs". (It should be noted that being a gray haired old man in and of itself does not constitute evil. Only some gray haired old men just as some flaxen haired young women fit this category). Some may have been in her own family. Some are the ones who forced her into exile in Australia so she would not interfere with their power grabbing plans. The lust for power and advantage is very strong and many succumb and become a slave to power.

Sometimes you get both a. and b. rolled into one package.

3. One Small Group

This group believe in Ellen White and genuinely want to please God. They want to be truthful about Ellen White and her mission. They know that Ellen White like the Prophets of old are not perfect (like Moses, David, Peter, Paul). In fact some of them did some very nasty things. Also Ellen White had no advantage over you and I on the path to Salvation. These people know that a prophet can serve God and still be lost (like Balaam). Whether Ellen White is among the saved----No one knows but God. However, Ellen White is clearly God's instrument who did and said many marvelous things. Without her service the SDA Church would not have survived. Regardless of whether she copied from others or not it is clear that God directed her work. These persons know that Ellen White is not some fantasy personality who oozed perfection 24/7. However, these people know that when they see her work alongside the Biblical work they are blessed by God. Is everything she wrote or did the result of Direct Power from God? Of course not. None of the Prophets of the Bible had to meet such a high standard. They had opinions and aspirations that were not sourced in God any more than you or I. It is strange but we today know more about Ellen White as a person than we know about any of the Prophets of the Bible. The Bible Prophets were known in their day like we know Ellen White. In fact it is recorded in the Bible itself how Paul upbraided Peter for being two faced when dealing with the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians. Peter admitted he was wrong. Is it right that we would expect Ellen White have been born on a higher plain? Of course not!!!!!!!!!! We need to be realistic and truthful.

It is a shame that the nasty groups have had such a strong influence over the years and decades of how SDA have viewed this remarkable servant of the Living God. What a marvelous privilege and opportunity has been wasted by the SDA Church in general. How sad it is to know that so much has been squandered. It makes you want to cry.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: John317

...do you believe God wants us in Babylon, the churches that have fallen away from the truth?

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Which churches are those, John?

Babylon consists of the "mother church" and all her daughter churches. They're "fallen" because they have rejected the truth and won't change.

What churches are those John? Baptist, Methodist, etc?

[Sonny]

So God is calling His honest and sincere people out of those churches and into His true church, which keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and has the Spirit of prophecy.

You don't keep the faith of Jesus, John. The faith of Jesus is something you experience. If you had the faith of Jesus (as opposed to faith in Jesus) you would walk as He did, but the facts is no one is, why?

Ellen White has some good statements in this area:

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish."

“Their earthliness [self-love, self-interest] must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.”

Unless all self-seeking, self-interest has been removed in your life you are not part of the commandment keeping church you claim.

[Sonny]

do you believe God wants us in Babylon?

Here's one of my favorite authors on this subject:

...it is possible to be a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church and be part of Babylon. Where there is self, you belong to Babylon. So please don’t say that I am an Adventist and out of Babylon. Be careful. Where there is self, there you have Babylon.

Pride, denominationalism, claiming to be the remnant & a keeper God's law - all these have one thing in common: "Self". It's the flesh lifting its ugly head up.

Both Job and Paul were in Babylon, if you will, before their conversion. Both claimed to be blameless both were proud, arrogant men. But after conversion we see humbled men. They had come out of Babylon.

[Sonny]

Pride, denominationalism, claiming to be the remnant & a keeper God's law - all these have one thing in common: "Self". It's the flesh lifting its ugly head up.

Let's keep all this in perspective:

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised [and keep the law - see Acts 15:1,5]; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

To glory in someone is to have pride in them due to their performance. When Adventist brag - when they claim to be God's true, one church they are essentially in Babylon.

Gal 5: 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised , Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised , that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you , whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The Jews were big on keeping the law. They also claimed to be God's true church. But all they did was used as bragging rites. They were in spiritual Babylon.

[miz3]

Babylon as stated in Revelation is not a physical place or a physical condition or merely a belief system,or worldview.

Babylon is a Spiritual Condition!!!!!!

[doug yowell]

Are Babylonians free moral agents?

[miz3]

Also the remnant are not a physical entity like a Church Denomination or Organization.

The remnant are humans who are Spiritually linked to God!!!!!!!!!!

We don't know who they all are because "man looketh on the outward appearance, but God looketh on the heart"!!!!!!!!!

Only God knows who is Spiritually in the remnant and who is Spiritually in Babylon.

One could on the outside look to be the best SDA ever but inside where we cannot see they full of Babylon dead wood and garbage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It all depends on the Spiritual not on the physical!!!!!!!

[doug yowell]

" 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [Paul quotes Exodus 33:19]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" Romans 9:14-24

An attempt to look at Rom.9 and what Paul is saying should always be done with the idea that no one Scripture stands alone as it's own best expositor. Even the inspired Peter admits that Paul sometimes is difficult to understand.So I think the best approach to any passsage is to include several presuppositions:1) The Bible is consistent in it's message 2)God is consistent in His thoughts and actions towards mankind. God is Love therefore everything that He does must testify to that fact(I Cor.13). God cannot act out of character. Therefore everything that God does is as important as everything that God says.3)Every teaching will have some corresponding Biblical text that can be made to teach the opposite of the truth therefore one must go on the revealed weight of evidence rather than the individual verses alone.4) The context of the discussion must be considered so to avoid misplaced applications. It is in this light that I understand Paul's message in Rom. 9.

[doug yowell]

The Book of Romans is perhaps the most comprehensive treatise on the way of salvation in the entire Bible. It's context is particularly pointed to the seemingly new approach of God in His saving those who were not formerly Jews. The traditional Jews had great difficulty with this and tried to impose this misunderstanding of how God saves on their theology and practice. Most of Paul's first 11 chapters are devoted to the correction of this "Jewish only" idea.It is within this train of argument that Paul writes in Rom.9.And he begins in vs.1 (as well as many other places) by swearing to his dedication to the salvation of those Jews who were unconverted. This statement should not be ignored when reading the rest of the chapter.It's ramifications are powerful and pertinent to his following argument.He is here reflecting not merely his own personal agenda but also the agenda of the One Who lives within him.

[teresaq]

...The fact is that God by fiat passed on to us sin and death even before any of us were born. We did not "choose" to be born sinful. God made us to be sinful because of what Adam did.

"12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:12-21.

Because of Adam we are condemned and because of Jesus Christ we are Justified. No choice just fiat on the part of God. Highlight verse 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!