Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[doug yowell]

Doug,

It appears that you have set the Standard for Spirituality at certain numbers that are calculated by others (so that we know the numbers you cited are verified as true)and all the rest of us must measure up to that Standard you stated in your post to be Spiritually viable to comment or to know the Truth.

.

There you go again. You don't get it do you? I consider those afore mentioned Christian giants to be on a different (higher) spiritual level than me (and you)and I mention that even they disagreed on many Biblical issues.Now somehow you've managed to twist this to mean that I am attacking you personally. If you think you are at a greater spiritual level than the Protestant reformers and cannot be wrong or disagreed with then simply say so. If not then we are agreed. I'm simply stating that you are wrong on your interpretation of what the Bible teaches on free moral agency. You're the one who has stated that God can do whatever He wishes without having to answer to man. It is the thesis of your take on Rom. 9 and other verses, yet I see a major contradiction between what you claim and what the Bible records. I've given you several scriptural examples of God's subjecting Himself to human judgment but you have not explained how they are in harmony with your understanding of Rom.9.

[doug yowell]

Doug,

First of all Doug give a list with chapter and verses of where God says we are to Judge Him as to whether God has been fair. Now don't give me just one or two. You said they were strewn throughout the Bible. I expect dozens if your boast is true.

God only requires two or three witnesses to establish a fact. I've given at least 3. Do you demand more than God? Dozens?? Are you willing to subject your views on this subject to the same standard? But for your sake I will include more,if you'll respond to the three I've already provided. Boasting is not boasting if you can back it up,right? (Jer. 9:24)It's 11:30 and I've got to get up at 5:30 tomorrow so....I'm out.

[John317]

Doug, Doug, you are so rapped up in your ability to smash me that you do not speak your words carefully.

Speaking as moderator:

This calls for a reading of people's motives and thoughts, and as such has no place in the discussion.

[John317]

... THe strawman charge is that if one claims that they were somehow responsible for any response to the offer of help that that means they are trying to grab some of the credit for their salvation. The problem is that no one who has been saved has ever responded that way.

Good thoughts, doug. :-)

[miz3]

John 317,

Here it is:

"12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:12-19.

1. Notice verse 12 sin entered by one man to all of us, as a result we all sinned because Adam sinned.

2. Verse 14 death reigned even over those who did not sin. (punishing the good for what Adam did).

3. Verse 15 many died because of the sin of Adam not their own sins.

4. Verse 16 Judgment followed "ONE SIN" and brought condemnation. Adams sin not yours not mine.

5. Verse 18 again the result on trespass condemnation for ALL MEN!

6. Verse 19 disobedience of one made many sinners; obedience of one many made righteous.

Can't get much clearer than that.

NEXT:

" 6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:6-11.

1. Verse 6 we (all humans) Christ died for the ungodly. He did not die for the righteous.

2. Verse 8 notice while were yet sinners Christ died.

3. Verse 9 Christs death immediately and instantaneously made us JUSTIFIED (that means we were made righteous and oh! humans did nothing to made righteous before God. Imagine that!

4. Verse 10 because we have been JUSTIFIED we are now "reconciled" to God because of Jesus Christ. More than that it also states that we saved and made righteous because of His life. Again no human nothing. A beautiful gift and we humans did nothing to get it!

5. Verse 11 Paul tells us to rejoice and we should not because we did something but because God did it all for us.

See how easy it is to read the Word. You follow what it says not what you want it to say.

You asked for it and I delivered!

Where does "faith" come in. That is easy. Faith, Trust, Belief are all the same thing. Either you "believe" and "trust" what God has said or you don't. Whether you do or you don't God gave you the gift apart from anything you did or did not do. The deal was done without you that is why it is a gift. The question is do you "believe" God and Jesus Christ did what they said they did in Romans chapter 5. Some don't believe it because they love darkness rather than God's light (John chapter 3).

[miz3]

John 317,

First I apologize for breaking the rules. It was not my intention to break the rules. I felt that I had been personally attacked concerning my Spiritual standing in contrast to the men listed in the past. I felt that I needed to respond to such an attack.

Second: I too feel it is more than late and I will respond tomorrow. It is also better not to respond when one is tired.

I will talk to you and the others tomorrow. Good night John 317 and others.

[John317]

Which verse are you saying teaches that all humanity is held "guilty" of Adam's sin?

Please quote it and exegete the passage.

I'm very familiar with the chapter, since I've translated the whole book of Romans from the original language. (Below is my translation of chapter V.)

Where does Paul mention the "guilt" of all of us for what Adam did? I know we suffer and die because of what Adam did, but that is not the same as saying we are "guilty" of Adam's sin. Similarly, people suffer and die for what others do, but that certainly does not mean they are "guilty" for what other people do. That's a really important distinction.

-----------------

Romans 5

1) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (2) through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and boast in hope of the glory of God. (3) And not only [that], but we boast also in troubles, knowing that troubles produce endurance, (4) and endurance [produces] proven character, and proven character hope. (5) And hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through [the] Holy Spirit who was given to us. (6) For while we were still helpless [in our sins], at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. (8) But God demonstrates His own love to us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, having been justified now by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath by him. (10) For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (11) And not only [that], but we are also rejoicing in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now receieved the reconciliation. (12) Therefore, even as through one man sin entererd into the world, and death through sin, and this death passed throughout upon all men, because all had committed sin----

---(13) (For until [the] law, sin was in [the] world, yet sin is not charged to [the sinner's] account [when there] is no law. (14) Nevertheless, death ruled from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the coming One. (15) But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one, the many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift of grace, by that of the one man Jesus Christ, super-abounded to the many. (16) And the gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned. For, indeed, the judgment [was] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but the free gift [is] from many transgressions resulting in acquittal. (17) For if [by] the one [man's] transgression, death ruled through the one, much more those who receive the superabundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall rule in life through the one, Jesus Christ.)---

(18)---- .So, then, as [it was] through one transgression for all men resulting in condemnation, thus also [it is] through one [man's] [act] of righteousness for all men, resulting in justification of life. (19) For even as, by the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, thus, also, by the obedience of the one, the many shall be made righteous. (20) But [the] law came in beside, so that the transgression might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, (21) so that even as sin ruled in death, thus also grace might rule through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

=================

NOTE on verse 18---

Notice that verses 13 through 17 are one long parenthesis. Paul might well have started verse 18 by saying, "So, then, to return to my original point which I left off at the end of v. 12...."

Verse 18 could also be translated as,

(18)---- So, then, as through one transgression the result for all men [was] condemnation, thus also, through one righteous act for all men, [it will be] justification resulting in life.

A literal rendering of verse 18, without any words added by the translator, reads as follows:

"So therefore as through one offense to all men into condemnation, so also through one righteous act to all men into justification of life."

Compare KJV, NKJV, and the New Translation of verse 18--

KJV--Romans 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

NKJV-- Therefore, as through one man's offense [judgment came] to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one man's righteous act [the free gift came] to all men, resulting in justification of life.

The New Translation-- "To summarize: just as one [man's] sin brought condemnation upon everyone, so also one [man's] perfect righteousness resulted in making people right in God's eyes, bringing life for all."

[LifeHiscost]

[

You are also confusing the freedom to choose and the ability to carry out that choice. We can choose to do good, but only God can supply the power.

And that Power is the sustaining Power that offers nothing but Power, Power waiting for the choice to be made freely, without duress.

"In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike."Matthew 5:45 NLT

Is it the rain or sunlight that causes the just or unjust? Only the choice without coercion makes the just.

And the first freedom of choice, without interference by the Holy One;

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."Revelation 3:20 NLT

There would be no need to invite if there were no freedom to choose. And there would be no need to allure, if there were no freedom to reject.

"Therefore, behold, I will allure her [israel] and bring her into the wilderness, and I will speak tenderly and to her heart." Hosea 2:14 AMP

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHiscost,

Are you perfect? I envy you if you are. Must be nice not to have to deal with temptation and weakness that makes us give in to temptation. It must be nice to no longer have a sinful nature. You are indeed fortunate.

Moses, Elijah, and Enoch are free. They are no longer in bondage. God has made then free indeed.

So long as I make the choices Jesus reveals to me to be right, just that length of time I am free to be righteous. As soon as I choose to ignore His call to righteousness, just then does the old man of sin rise to life. Then I am again enslaved until such time as I freely choose to confess my sins, receive repentance from Jesus, and experience the cleansing flow of His blood promised by His Word.

"Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."Acts 5:31 NKJV

"If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]. "1 John 1:9 AMP parenthesis brackets theirs LHC

If you would accept His Word, the reality is yours as you receive the robe of His righteousness. The failures you are unaware of are not accounted to you as sin.

"Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it."James 4:17 NLT

God blesses!

[Gerr]

To Gerry and pkrause,

A "Free Moral Agent" is:

"A Free Moral Agent is a human entity that is able to take two or more diametrically opposite moral positions or moral entities and independently of any other entity or force decide within one’s own being which one is Morally Righteous and which one is Morally Unrighteous"

DEFINITION BY MIZ3

When I use the words "REJECT" OR "IGNORE" I am using the words of the Bible. Rejection is not part of being a "free moral agent" nor is it a choice. To have "free choice" as defined above you have to be able to choose between at least TWO ALTERNATIVES. When God sends His Light to each human as stated in John chapter one they have only "ONE ALTERNATIVE" that being "REJECT GOD AND THE HOLY SPIRIT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thus, No free choice, No free moral agency!

Noooooo, you don't have just one alternative!!! When the Holy Spirit comes knocking at your door, you have TWO diametrically opposed alternatives. Either you say "YES" and open the door, or "NO" and and refuse to open it!!! I am at a loss what part of YES & NO you don't understand. Yes & no are not one and the same choice!!!

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHiscost,

Its not about settling issues of fairness or satisfying questions of the created. There is nothing in Scripture says any of this stuff.

The opinions you have expressed indicates you are not an Adventist. Is that correct? While I could spend the time finding the Scriptures that give the answers that give more clarity to the issue, it is probably best to wait until a time when you are more open to the recognition that God is sovereign despite the fact that sin at this point reigns on this earth, and only those of us are subjugated to its' call who have yet to place Jesus on the throne of their heart.

God blesses!

[John317]

... 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Noitce that as it is translated here, it does not mean that all men are justified, or set right with God. Rather, it means that the result of Christ's sacrifice on the cross was life for all people. It doesn't refer to eternal life, of course, but to temporal life. The effect of Christ's sacrifice was to place man on a second probation, so that we were given a second opportunity to demonstrate whether we can be trusted with the gift of immortality.

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. Notice verse 12 sin entered by one man to all of us, as a result we all sinned because Adam sinned.

2. Verse 14 death reigned even over those who did not sin. (punishing the good for what Adam did).

3. Verse 15 many died because of the sin of Adam not their own sins.

None of the above is "guilt." Do we say a mother (or God) is "punishing" her child when it inherits a disease, defect or addiction from the parent?

Originally Posted By: miz3

4. Verse 16 Judgment followed "ONE SIN" and brought condemnation. Adams sin not yours not mine.

Yes, humans were condemned to die becasue of what Adam did, but this is not the same as being held "guilty" of Adam's sin.

[Gerr]

Doug,

We already covered this but there is no harm in covering it again.

Paul states that God can and does hold us accountable for what we had no choice in. The fact is that God by fiat passed on to us sin and death even before any of us were born. We did not "choose" to be born sinful. God made us to be sinful because of what Adam did.

I beg to differ. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that God made us to be sinful, if so, I'd like to see the reference. But it's true that in some way we suffer the consequences of Adam's sin/guilt. We are conceived in sin. There is not a part of us that is not infected by sin. We suffer the FIRST death solely because of Adam's sin that has been passed down to us. But Christ rectified that by dying for us so that NO ONE needs to die the second death UNLESS THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO. Dying the second death is the result of our choice and ours alone. It is a choice from TWO DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED ALTERNATIVES - LIFE or DEATH. Your definition of free moral agent is faulty. You say we don't have a choice because there is ONLY ONE alternative, when in fact we have TWO. Your syllogism runs thus:

1. To be a free moral agent, one must have at least two diametrically opposed alternatives.

2. We only have one alternative.

3. Therefore, we are not free moral agents.

It sounds logical, but the conclusion is wrong because statement #2 is WRONG!!!

Quote:

Again, God is acting by fiat. As the text states in verse 16 it does not depend on "man's desire or effort but on God's mercy". Paul then covers your question (verses 19-21)of why blame us if we had no part in "choosing" sin?

You are correct in your quote of Paul that God extending mercy has nothing to do with our desire or choice. That is God's sovereign decision alone. HOWEVER, Paul makes it clear that this mercy, this justifying death of Christ, the righteousness that He gives as a gift is to be RECEIVED by faith. Reception of that give requires conscious choice - a choice from TWO DIAMETRICALLY opposed alternatives,i.e. 1) ACCEPT IT 2) REJECT IT. THEREFORE WE ARE FREE MORAL AGENTS.

[LifeHiscost]

God can and does what He jolly wants to.

Couldn't agree with you more.

"But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love. "1 John 4:8 NLT

"Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.

It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].

It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.

Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]."1 Corinthians 13:4-7 AMP

God blesses!

[Gerr]

Which verse are you saying teaches that all humanity is held "guilty" of Adam's sin?

John, I have to agree with miz3 on this. Paul says: ESV | Ro 5:18 "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

con•demn \kən-ˈdem\ verb transitive

[Middle English, from Anglo-French condempner, from Latin condemnare, from com- + damnare to condemn — more at DAMN] 14th century

1 : to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation 〈a policy widely condemned as racist〉

2 a : to pronounce guilty : CONVICT

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

We share in Adam's sin/guilt/condemnation because as a result of his sin, we are all conceived in sin. Every particle of our being is infected with the principle of sin. We die the first death on account of Adam's sin. But as a result of one act of righteousness that leads to justification in which we had no part, no one needs to die the second death. Chrit's act of righteousness cancels Adma's act of disobedience. Dying the second death, therefore, is our choice and ours alone.

[miz3]

I am in agreement with everything Gerry just said except for the last sentence.

[miz3]

Gerry,

Let explain my definition of "free moral agent".

Since we are born slaves to the "sinful nature" we cannot be "free moral agents" because our slavery dictates that in all situations we will do evil. It is impossible for the sinful nature to ever do good (see Romans chapter 8).

" 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

Romans 8:5-8.

Notice how we are either controlled by the "sinful nature" or controlled by the Spirit. Notice also:

1. The mind of sinful man is death

2. The mind of sinful man does not submit to God's law

3. The mind of sinful man cannot ever submit to God's law. It has no capacity to do so!

4. Those CONTROLLED by the sinful nature CANNOT please God.

Because we are born slaves to the sinful nature the alternative to do Righteous anything is off the table. We do not have two alternatives but rather we have only ONE ALTERNATIVE and that is to sin.

This is why I continue to hold that it is not a "choice" because we have only one path open.

An illustration (which is not proof because illustrations are intended only as clarifying vehicles).

On this earth I have only one alternative way to move around (assuming I do not use any vehicles at all) and that is to walk, crawl, hop, or use my body in some way as to propel me where I want to go. This alternative is slow and arduous. However, I have no choice but to do it because any other alternative is not open to me (again assuming that we do have vehicles that are not human such as a car, truck, airplane, etc.). It is impossible for me to anything else. My circumstances limit me.

Then along comes God unasked and says here miz3 I am now giving you a new way to travel. You can now fly faster than the speed of light because I have changed your mind and you now belong to me. Your mind will now be different. Now I have alternatives.

It may a be clumsy illustration but it shows how one-sided sin has made us. The Scripture in Romans chapter 8 above is much stronger in making the point. In fact Romans chapter 8 can leave no doubt!!

[Gerr]

I am in agreement with everything Gerry just said except for the last sentence.

So how does one end up in heaven or hell?

[miz3]

Gerry,

The reason I balked at your "last sentence" is because I want to think about it more. I am not sure yet how to respond.

I do know that those who go to heaven 'will know God and Jesus Christ' see John 17:3, and Matthew 7:21-23. Also those who go to hell will go for the reasons already stated.

I think much of the confusion in this "free moral agent" thing is that we often confuse the two great processes of Salvation. They would be "justification" and "Sanctification".

Justification as we read in Romans chapter 5 God has already done for us apart from anything any human did or did not do.

Sanctification on the other hand is more complex because the Bible clearly expects us to be an intimate part of this process. God has given us clear unambiguous commands as to what He wants us to do in this process. It is in this process that the action words come into play.

Action words like: repent, come to me, drink the water of life, eat the bread of life, forgive, pray, confess, love one another, seek, obey, etc.

It is in the Sanctification process that God goes about the work of freeing us from the sinful nature. Sanctification can be at times a very dirty and arduous process. It is like street to street, house to house, room to room war. The sinful nature does not want to die and it will fight tooth and nail to stay alive and keep you its slave. However, God wants you too. The human entity is caught in this war between the two masters for your life. Unlike Justification where God just did it and it was over, Sanctification peels away layer by infinite layer of garbage. This is what brings us so much stress.

However, the more like Jesus Christ we become (the goal of Sanctification is for us to be like Jesus Christ) the more options and the more power we have. The more power we have (which is the Holy Spirit in us) the more free we become and the more we can do.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

Let explain my definition of "free moral agent".

Since we are born slaves to the "sinful nature" we cannot be "free moral agents" because our slavery dictates that in all situations we will do evil. It is impossible for the sinful nature to ever do good (see Romans chapter 8).

As I said before, you are confusing the choosing and doing. We can not do good. "Without Me you can DO nothing." Paul makes it clear, ESV | Ro 7:18 "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."

NASB95 | Ro 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

ESV | Ro 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

The willing/desiring/choosing is ALWAYS THERE (except perhaps when one has grieved the Spirit away completely), but the doing is NEVER in the sinful nature.

Quote:

" 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

Romans 8:5-8

Notice how we are either controlled by the "sinful nature" or controlled by the Spirit. Notice also:

1. The mind of sinful man is death

2. The mind of sinful man does not submit to God's law

3. The mind of sinful man cannot ever submit to God's law. It has no capacity to do so!

4. Those CONTROLLED by the sinful nature CANNOT please God.

So how does one come under the control of the Holy Spirit?

Quote:

Because we are born slaves to the sinful nature the alternative to do Righteous anything is off the table. We do not have two alternatives but rather we have only ONE ALTERNATIVE and that is to sin.

This is why I continue to hold that it is not a "choice" because we have only one path open.

NO, you have TWO PATHS open - the way to LIFE and the way to DEATH. Two paths that are as distinct and diametrically opposed as one can get. Light/darkness. Right/wrong. Love/hate.

ESV | Ga 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

ESV | Ga 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Jn 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Before Christ, only the will is free. After Christ, we are not only free still to choose, but now we are also free to do.

ESV | Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

ESV | Php 4:13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

The reason I balked at your "last sentence" is because I want to think about it more. I am not sure yet how to respond.

I do know that those who go to heaven 'will know God and Jesus Christ' see John 17:3, and Matthew 7:21-23. Also those who go to hell will go for the reasons already stated.

I think much of the confusion in this "free moral agent" thing is that we often confuse the two great processes of Salvation. They would be "justification" and "Sanctification".

The righteousness that justifies is imputed. It is the righteousness OF GOD and FROM GOD. It is CHRIST'S ROBE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. There is not ONE THREAD of human devising in it. But as Paul says in Rom 3, it has to be RECEIVED by faith (a conscious choice).

Sanctification is walking with Jesus; and walking with/by the Spirit. A conscious, daily choice.

Action words like: repent, come to me, drink the water of life, eat the bread of life, forgive, pray, confess, love one another, seek, obey, etc.[/quote

Look at all those action words you mentioned. None are done reflexively. These are done by CONSCIOUS effort resulting from CONSCIOUS CHOICES.

[miz3]

Gerry,

You said,

"Before Christ, only the will is free. After Christ, we are not only free still to choose, but now we are also free to do."

The statement you made is the crux of what those who believe in human "free moral agency" adhere to!!!!!!

In essence you are saying there is a "pristine" place in the human entity that is not touched by sin or any other entity including God whereby the human entity can make decisions without being coerced one way or the other by any outside influence whatsoever.

This is why I ask the question: Show me where in the Bible where this "pristine" place exists? The Bible no where states that such a "pristine place exists. This is my original question at the very start of all these posts.

[miz3]

You said,

"Before Christ, only the will is free. After Christ, we are not only free still to choose, but now we are also free to do."

The statement you made is the crux of what those who believe in human "free moral agency" adhere to!!!!!!

In essence you are saying there is a "pristine" place in the human entity that is not touched by sin or any other entity including God whereby the human entity can make decisions without being coerced one way or the other by any outside influence whatsoever.

This is why I ask the question: Show me where in the Bible where this "pristine" place exists? The Bible no where states that such a "pristine place exists. This is my original question at the very start of all these posts.

[John317]

... Paul says: ESV | Ro 5:18 "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

con•demn \kən-ˈdem\ verb transitive

[Middle English, from Anglo-French condempner, from Latin condemnare, from com- + damnare to condemn — more at DAMN] 14th century

1 : to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation 〈a policy widely condemned as racist〉

2 a : to pronounce guilty : CONVICT

Let's look at the Greek word. katakrima (Strongs#2631), which is only used three times in the NT. Romans 5: 16, 18, and 8: 1. It means doom, punishment, condemning sentence.

The Greek-English Lexicon by Bauer, Gingrich says, "probably not 'condemnation,' but the punishment following sentence, punishment, doom... there is no doom for those who are in Christ Jesus Rom 8: 1; (led)to punishment or doom for all men Ro. 5: 18" (page 413).

The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, Moulton, Milligan, says, "This word does not mean condemnation, but the punishment following sentence, so that the 'earlier lexicographers' mentioned by Deissmann were right. This not only suits Romans 8: 1 admirably, as Deissmann points out, but it materially helps the exegesis of Romans 5: 16, 18. ... katakrima, the permenant imprisonment for a debt we cannot pay: Matt. 18: 34 paints the picture of this hopeless state," (page 328).

[miz3]

John317,

I guess you have a dilemma. It now becomes a battle over which translator is more accurate. It appears also that MOST translators see it differently than the ones you arr quoting since the Bibles use something different than what they are saying. It is your prerogative to go with whoever you want so that it fits your view.

I can't be bludgeoned by those who try and get fancy by going to the "original Greek or the original Hebrew" as if their view of things is more correct than a whole slew of translators.

Either we accept the Bible as translated the way it is or we don't. God's Word is not only for the educated but also for the uneducated. God does not give more Truth to the educated as opposed to the uneducated.

If that were true then Christ would never have chosen the disciples He did. Ellen White would never have been viable either given her educational background. On that basis I reject your attempt to make this an argument that can only be settled by the "big bad brains" of those "Greek and Hebrew Scholars". Christ constantly spoke to the uneducated of His day giving them the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven while the so-called educated didn't know even the least little thing about what He was saying.

Sorry, John317!