Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[Gerr]

Gerry and Others,

The texts you provided have already been dealt with and I will not bore everyone by repeating my clear an unambiguous answers which have included numerous Biblical texts. In some instances we have even gone verse by verse, sentence by sentence and phrase by phrase showing clearly that humans are NOT FREE MORAL AGENTS AND HAVE NEVER BEEN FREE MORAL AGENTS(Remember we are talking about humans ONLY after sin entered the earth through Adam and Eve.)

You have done no such thing. If you did, then everybody missed it. Please show me where you have done so. I am prepared to be bored with repetition if necessary.

1. What Bible references do you have to show that we are not free moral agents?

2. If we are not free moral agents, then why do some people choose life and go to heaven, while others choose death and go to hell?

3. If we are not free moral agents, then what are we? One cannot be accountable for their actions UNLESS they are free moral agents. No accountability, no heaven or hell.

Quote:

In addition, I have answered comprehensively the questions you are asking at the end of your post. [

Please show these "comprehensive" answers. Learning is done best after all by repetition.

We have been so conditioned that certain things are true that we take for granted that it is true. In such instances it is very easy for us as humans, let alone us as SDA, to never question or attempt to check our assumptions to see if they are really true! We do not study God's Word to test the voracity of our beliefs. I am amazed that so many SDA do not even have an elementary knowledge as to where in the Bible the support for their beliefs exist if they even exist at all.

You alone the thinker while the rest of us are just mindless followers? Your hubris amazes me.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

How am I doing that?

Analyze your post: pkrause, Gerry, the experience described in Romans 7 shows a man who is intellectually converted to the law of God and who is choosing to do right but quickly finds out that choosing to do right is not enough. That man has good intentions and makes strong resolutions to do what he knows to be rigth and yet time and time again he is confronted with the fact that good intentions and strong resolutions are not enough.

"Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless." S.C.18.

How can a man be said to be a free moral agent if education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, are all powerless in his search for moral freedom?

"It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. 'Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." S.C.18.

The only sense in which it can be said a man is a "free moral agent" is if he chooses to consent for Christ to do for him that which it is not in his power to do for himself.

Right?

sky

Okay, I see. I realize that it is a bit of a contradiction to say that man is not a free moral agent while at the same time he has been given the ability to consent or not to consent for Christ to do for him that which it is not in his power to do for himself. This ability to consent or not to consent implies freedom of choice. So he is a free moral agent after all. How is that Gerry?

sky :)

[Gerr]

Excellent!!!

[skyblue888]

:)

[miz3]

Gerry,

If you want to repeat what I have written start at the beginning and go through all 16 or so pages of the posts and reread what I have written. Repeat this activity over and over again until the Truth penetrates your mind and soul. READ AND REREAD EVERY WORD CAREFULLY!!!! DON'T BE SLOPPY OR AND SPEED READ!!!!!! TAKE YOUR TIME AND PRAY OVER WHAT YOU ARE READING!!!!!!If you do this the answers to your questions will be answered.

I am in total agreement that repetition is indeed vital to one's learning!!!!!

On that basis knock yourself out rereading and rereading my posts over and over again for it will be good for you to do this.

My confidence comes from knowing that I have prayerfully studied God's wonderful Word and the God I love has indeed fulfilled His promise to by giving me Wisdom and Knowledge that is beyond all human understanding. It is not me that has the genius but it is God in me that shines out. Praise God for He is beyond all that is!!!!!!!!

As God states in His Word He imparts Wisdom to the foolish and foolishness to the wise. I thank GOD constantly for the revelations of Truth I receive from Him daily. NO I AM NOT A PROPHET!!!!!!!!!!! I am a nothing who God has so richly blessed!!!!!!!!!!! I DO NOT RECEIVE VISIONS!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a nothing who God has so richly blessed!!!!!!!!!

[skyblue888]

miz3, was man given the ability to consent for Christ to do for him that which it is not in his power to do for himself or not?

Look at this statement for a moment, if you will:

"Nothing can take the place of simple faith and entire renunciation of self. But no man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work. Then the language of the soul will be: Lord, take my heart for I cannot give it. It is Your property. Keep it pure for I cannot keep it for You. Save me in spite of myself, my weak, unchristlike self. Mold me, fashion me, raise me into a pure and holy atmosphere where the rich current of Your love can flow through my soul." C.O.L.159.

Consenting for Christ to accomplish the work implies freedom to choose? Does it not?

sky

[miz3]

Sky,

If you go into the area of Ellen White to have this discussion we don't need use "implied" quotations to answer your question? We can use direct quotes as John317 and others have used to prove that humans are "free moral agents"!!!! Ellen White believed that humans are "free moral agents". That fact cannot be questioned!!!!!!

However, my point is that if we take the Bible and the Bible ONLY!!!!!!!!!! it is not possible to demonstrate in any way shape or form that humans are "free moral agents"!!!!!!!!!

Ellen White yes! The Bible no!

[Gerr]

Gerry,

If you want to repeat what I have written start at the beginning and go through all 16 or so pages of the posts and reread what I have written. Repeat this activity over and over again until the Truth penetrates your mind and soul. READ AND REREAD EVERY WORD CAREFULLY!!!! DON'T BE SLOPPY OR AND SPEED READ!!!!!! TAKE YOUR TIME AND PRAY OVER WHAT YOU ARE READING!!!!!!If you do this the answers to your questions will be answered.

I am in total agreement that repetition is indeed vital to one's learning!!!!!

On that basis knock yourself out rereading and rereading my posts over and over again for it will be good for you to do this.

My confidence comes from knowing that I have prayerfully studied God's wonderful Word and the God I love has indeed fulfilled His promise to by giving me Wisdom and Knowledge that is beyond all human understanding. It is not me that has the genius but it is God in me that shines out. Praise God for He is beyond all that is!!!!!!!!

As God states in His Word He imparts Wisdom to the foolish and foolishness to the wise. I thank GOD constantly for the revelations of Truth I receive from Him daily. NO I AM NOT A PROPHET!!!!!!!!!!! I am a nothing who God has so richly blessed!!!!!!!!!!! I DO NOT RECEIVE VISIONS!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a nothing who God has so richly blessed!!!!!!!!!

Your hubris is again showing. You are assuming you are the only one praying and studying the word of God!!! Rereading your posts is a near-exercise in futility because you have not proven your case nor answered the questions you were asked.

1. If we are not free moral agents, how do some choose to go to heaven and some to go to hell?

2. If you are not a free moral agent, what are you?

3. And where in the Bible does it say we are not free moral agents?

You don't want to repeat what you said because you have not said anything to prove your case.

[Gerr]

PS

I have not cited ONE word from EGW.

[miz3]

Gerry,

I did not say that I was the only one praying and studying the Word of God. For you to make such a statement like that shows and demonstrates that you do not read carefully what is written in plain English. You read and take from that reading only what suits your fancy. The rest you block out completely because it does fit your narrative. Such actions on your part demonstrate either sloppiness or they demonstrate deceitfulness. And you accuse me of "hubris"!!! Gerry you are the one with hubris and much more!

[Gerr]

In case you didn't notice, I quoted your statements I was responding to minimize the misunderstanding. I did not block out what I did not want. Read what you posted "in plain English" and see how it comes across.

[Gerr]

PS

Let's not get untracked from the subject under discussion. Please, just answer these:

Rereading your posts is a near-exercise in futility because you have not proven your case nor answered the questions you were asked.

1. If we are not free moral agents, how do some choose to go to heaven and some to go to hell?

2. If you are not a free moral agent, what are you?

3. And where in the Bible does it say we are not free moral agents?

You don't want to repeat what you said because you have not said anything to prove your case.

[miz3]

Gerry,

You may have quoted me but it is clear that you missed most of what was actually said.

In answer to your 3 questions I once again refer you to what I have written in all these posts. You either want to hide behind your facade or you are too lazy to go back and carefully study what I have written. Even the three questions you have currently posed has already been asked many posts ago and the answers have also been given long ago. You are going around in circles because it is you who have no case. You are lost and all you can do hop from one place to another hoping that you will get away from the tangled web you have woven.

I indeed have proven my case!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read it again, Gerry!!!!!!!

[Woody]

Quote:

You are lost

Being lost is in the eye of the beholder.

[miz3]

Woody,

Not always true!!!!!!!!!!!! Its not always subjective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Woody]

Woody,

Not always true!!!!!!!!!!!! Its not always subjective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay - U win. lol !!!!!

(but not always)

[John317]

Ellen White believed that humans are "free moral agents". That fact cannot be questioned!!!!!!

However, my point is that if we take the Bible and the Bible ONLY!!!!!!!!!! it is not possible to demonstrate in any way shape or form that humans are "free moral agents"!!!!!!!!!

Ellen White yes! The Bible no!

Ellen White was raised up in order to help people see Bible truth. She writes in plain English, and she is not contradicting the Bible when she says that humans are free moral agents. If she were contradictin g the Bible, she would be a false prophet.

Not only have you seen Bible evidence for it but you even know that the prophet of God plainly tells us that people are free moral agents. So in order for you to reject it, you have to reject both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy.

How can you make any sense of the events at the Flood or at the cross and at the Great White Throne Judgment if people are not free moral agents? What then are people if not free moral agents? We would then be a mere automation.

[John317]

I indeed have proven my case!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A participant in a discussion or debate is never the one to decide that he has proven his case. That is left up to impartial readers. They will make that decision.

But in the meantime, you haven't even shown you can make sense out of the major events of the Bible from the viewpoint that people are not free moral agents. Talk to us about the Flood, the destruction of Sodom, Deut. 28, the life and death of Christ, the Gospel Commission, the Three Angels Messages, the Investigative Judgment, the Second Coming, and the Great White Throne Judgment. I believe these things only make sense if humans are free moral agents.

What are these all about if people are NOT free moral agents?

[phkrause]

Ellen White was raised up in order to help people see Bible truth. She writes in plain English, and she is not contradicting the Bible when she says that humans are free moral agents. If she were contradictin g the Bible, she would be a false prophet.

Not only have you seen Bible evidence for it but you even know that the prophet of God plainly tells us that people are free moral agents. So in order for you to reject it, you have to reject both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy.

How can you make any sense of the events at the Flood or at the cross and at the Great White Throne Judgment if people are not free moral agnets? What then are people if not free moral agents? We would then be a mere automation.

Great point John. I wish I could understand what the problem is with EGW? I could understand if she were some kind of liar! Its funny, many ask I wish the Bible would fill in some of the details so that we could understand better, for instances: Creation, the Flood, what happen in Heaven with Satan, etc., etc., and so God provides someone, and we don't want to hear what she has to say???? I guess maybe a man would've been a better choice! Oh I just remembered he did but that man didn't want the job!! He probably said to himself, whoa Lord people will probably dislike me. All I can say is, she didn't turn the Lord down and didn't care what we would say about her.

[miz3]

Another point has been made by having this discussion.

1. Mormons stand on the Bible and Joseph Smith. They are not ashamed to state to the World that Joseph Smith is a "Prophet" just as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc. are prophets. They hold their views on that basis. They will freely admit that "such and such" is not in the Bible but that Joseph Smith has spoken about "such and such" and that is the basis of Mormon Doctrine and Belief.

2. SDA say they have a prophet but we are sooooo ashamed of her and we are afraid we will be laughed at and ridiculed so we call her the "lesser light" and we don't use her in public. Yet SDA quote her all time among themselves to settle any argument as if she is the "Last Word". Everyone sees our duplicity. We are not fooling anyone but ourselves.

3. SDA state they are a Bible and Bible only Church. That all our Doctrines are based solely on the Bible and the Bible only. Yet we then turn around and state that we have a unique message on the Sanctuary, the Investigative Judgment, and the Most Holy Place that comes entirely from who, Ellen G. White. The rest of the world knows that we got this Doctrine from Ellen White and not the Bible. Yet we are not honest in our statements .when we claim to be a Bible and Bible only Church.

4. Why cannot we be like the Mormons and stand up for our "Prophet" and be proud that God has honored us with such a great Gift. Why can we not honestly state to the rest of the world that our Prophet has given us further "inspired" light that is on a par with the Word of the Bible. Buddhists are not ashamed of Buddha, Islam is not ashamed of Mohammad, but SDA are ashamed of Ellen White.

5. We should be ashamed of ourselves. Yet we are not ashamed. We brazenly lie and are duplicitous about this within our community and we think we are fooling the rest of the world. No wonder we are having trouble keeping people in the Church (SDA)!!!! They see how we lie to ourselves. They see how we misuse the Word of God to grind our own axe. They see how we behave and our arrogance that we are a "people of destiny".

6. If we are indeed a "people of destiny" lets stand upright and state that Ellen G. White is a Prophet just as Moses, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc. are Prophets. Let's stand up and state that Ellen G. White is the Source of some of Doctrinal base. Let us stand up and state that the Bible did NOT give us "ALL" the Light. Let us stand up open and honest and state that Ellen White has given us more Light and we intend for everyone to know it and let use her openly and honestly with the rest of the world so that they may know the Truth.

7. We are not ashamed of the Biblical Prophets. We don't slink around saying be careful about releasing this point or that point from this or that Biblical Prophet. We stand tall and upright with the rest of Protestantism in affirming that these writers of God's Word not only have a message for all but are conveyors of Truth to ALL HUMANS!! Why don't we do this with all of Ellen White's writings and assertions?

8. What are we SDA afraid of?

[Gerr]

After writing that page, you could have answered my questions in less than a third of the time and space if you had any answers.

[doug yowell]

Please, just answer these:

Rereading your posts is a near-exercise in futility because you have not proven your case nor answered the questions you were asked.

1. If we are not free moral agents, how do some choose to go to heaven and some to go to hell?

2. If you are not a free moral agent, what are you?

3. And where in the Bible does it say we are not free moral agents?

your

Is there an echo in here?

[doug yowell]

Check out this link:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post433439

Compare those pictures with the one below, showing me as I am today:

John, Are you sure you're not James Dobson posing as John 3:17?

[John317]

You're kidding, right?

I didn't think I looked like James Dobson. I did see him once in Seattle, but he's a lot older than I am. But no, that's my picture, all right. My wife vouches for me, that it's me. LOL

[doug yowell]

You're kidding, right?

I didn't think I looked like James Dobson. I did see him once in Seattle, but he's a lot older than I am. But no, that's my picture, all right. My wife vouches for me, that it's me. LOL

Maybe a younger, better version posing with a visitor to Focus on the Family?