Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[John317]

She herself stated that she was not a Prophet! However, that does not necessarily mean that God did not use her to speak to the Church!!!!!

No, she did not say she was not a prophet.

She actually said, "My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there." She said the reason she does not "assume the title" is that the name "prophet" has come into disrepute, just as the name "Messiah" had come into direpute in Christ's day. She was given about two thousand visions from God and was commissioned by Christ Himself to be His messenger, to write His messages to the church and to individuals in the church.

Here is what she said:

Quote:

No Boastful Claims

To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.

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{1SM 34.5}

When I was last in Battle Creek, I said before a large congregation that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Twice I referred to this matter, intending each time to make the statement, "I do not claim to be a prophetess." If I spoke otherwise than this, let all now understand that what I had in mind to say was that I do not claim the title of prophet or prophetess. {1SM 35.1}

I understood that some were anxious to know if Mrs. White still held the same views that she did years ago when they had heard her speak in the sanitarium grove, in the Tabernacle, and at the camp meetings held in the suburbs of Battle Creek. I assured them that the message she bears today is the same that she has borne during the sixty years of her public ministry. She has the same service to do for the Master that was laid upon her in her girlhood. She receives lessons from the same Instructor. The directions given her are, "Make known to others what I have revealed to you. Write out the messages that I give you, that the people may have them." This is what she has endeavored to do. {1SM 35.2}

I have written many books, and they have been given a wide circulation. Of myself I could not have brought out the truth in these books, but the Lord has given me the help of His Holy Spirit. These books, giving the instruction that the Lord has given me during the past sixty years, contain light from heaven, and will bear the test of investigation. {1SM 35.3}

At the age of seventy-eight I am still toiling. We are all in the hands of the Lord. I trust in Him; for I know that he will never leave nor forsake those who put their trust in Him. I have committed myself to His keeping. {1SM 35.4}

"And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry" (1 Timothy 1:12).--The Review and Herald, July 26, 1906. {1SM 35.5}

The Work of a Prophet and More

During the discourse, I said that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Some were surprised at this statement, and as

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much is being said in regard to it, I will make an explanation. Others have called me a prophetess, but I have never assumed that title. I have not felt that it was my duty thus to designate myself. Those who boldly assume that they are prophets in this our day are often a reproach to the cause of Christ. {1SM 35.6}

My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people.--Letter 55, 1905. {1SM 36.1}

I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend.--Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church.) {1SM 36.2}

Receiving and Imparting the Light

As inquiries are frequently made as to my state in vision, and after I come out, I would say that when the Lord sees fit to give a vision, I am taken into the presence of Jesus and angels, and am entirely lost to earthly things. I can see no farther than the angel directs me. My attention is often directed to scenes transpiring upon earth. {1SM 36.3}

At times I am carried far ahead into the future and shown what is to take place. Then again I am shown things as they have occurred in the past. After I come out of vision I do not at once remember all that I have seen, and the matter is not so clear before me until I write, then the scene rises before me as was presented in vision, and I can write with freedom. Sometimes the things which I have seen are hid from me after I come out of vision, and I cannot call them to mind until I am brought before a company where that vision applies, then the things which I have seen come to my mind with force. I am just as dependent upon the Spirit of the Lord in relating or writing a vision, as in having the vision. It is impossible for me to

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call up things which have been shown me unless the Lord brings them before me at the time that He is pleased to have me relate or write them.--Spiritual Gifts (1860), vol. 2, pp. 292, 293. {1SM 36.4}

Although I am as dependent upon the Spirit of the Lord in writing my views as I am in receiving them, yet the words I employ in describing what I have seen are my own, unless they be those spoken to me by an angel, which I always enclose in marks of quotation.--The Review and Herald, Oct. 8, 1867. {1SM 37.1}

[Sonny]

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

“A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, ‘We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.’ But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God's word for truth. ‘Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.’ Some have asked me if I thought there was any more light for the people of God. Our minds have become so narrow that we do not seem to understand that the Lord has a mighty work to do for us. Increasing light is to shine upon us; for ‘the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.’ --Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. CW 34, 35

[miz3]

It may be that Adam chose. I am not asserting any of this from the sinless state of things. I am saying that Adam's guilt was passed on to us by God's fiat. God could have given each human that came along a test just as He did Adam. If you or I did not have the sinful disposition we are born with and God tested us like He did Adam then that would be different. God chose not to do it that way. Instead God passed on to us Adam's guilt and the predisposition to do evil (what Paul calls the sinful nature or the flesh.

My point is that you and I were not given a chance to decide or to choose, we were declared lost even before we were born.

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5. We were shaped and conceived (the moment the sperm and egg united we were sin) in sin!!!!!! The plane clear English that needs no rewrite by Ellen White or anyone else!!!!!!

By the same token Romans chapter 5 states that again by fiat because of what Jesus Christ did God declared us Justified (that is we are not guilty of anything and are now saved).

Can God act by fiat? Does God have to give us a choice? The clear answer is that God can do whatever He wants to because He is God and we are nothing. God does not have to give us anything. God defines the terms. We humans too often think that God must act in ways that fit our definitions of what is fair, what is just, what is reasonable, etc. God is not bound by our definitions!!!!!! Who are we to be defining anything?

As Romans chapter 9 says, God can love Jacob and hate Esau. What is that to us or even to them if God wants to do that, when He wants to that? God can do as He likes regardless of whether we think it is fair, just, or anything else. We are not God's judges. God is not accountable to us, we are accountable to him!!!!!!!!!

[John317]

do you believe God wants us in Babylon?

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Here's one of my favorite authors on this subject:

...it is possible to be a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church and be part of Babylon. Where there is self, you belong to Babylon. So please don’t say that I am an Adventist and out of Babylon. Be careful. Where there is self, there you have Babylon.

Jack Sequiera, of course?

I've already said that simply being in the Remnant church-- having one's name on the church books-- does not mean one is truly a part of God's remnant people. Only a remnant of the Remnant will be saved in God's kingdom. However, that does not change the fact that God is calling people out of Babylon and into the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Of course Satan is also interested in getting some people into the SDA chruch. He loves to get unconverted people into the church where he can use them to bring in false doctrines and cause confusion. Ellen White writes of this and the Bible speaks of this as well, in the book of Acts and in the letters of Paul and in the book of Revelation. So no one is saying that everyone in the SDA church is perfect or is even doing the will of God.

But the point is that the SDA church has been raised up to give God's last-day message to a dying world and that those in the SDA church have greater access to the truth. If they don't take advantage of the available truth and practice it, that is their choice, but at least they have that opportunity. One can't be in the SDA Church and not hear the truth about the Sabbath, the state of the dead, the Investigative Judgment, health reform, the Three Angels' Messages, the Mark of the Beast, etc. These are the truths that God wants the world to hear and understand today. People in the fallen church hear nothing about these important truths. Most of them learn false teachings about Christ's return and false teachigns about God and salvation.

Here is one of my favorite authors:

Quote:

As God called the children of Israel out of Egypt, that they might keep His Sabbath, so He calls His people out of Babylon that they may not worship the beast nor his image. The man of sin, who thought to change times and laws, has exalted himself above God by presenting this spurious sabbath to the world; the Christian world has accepted this child of the Papacy, and cradled and nourished it, thus defying God by removing His memorial and setting up a rival sabbath. {3SM 406.1}

The theory of eternal torment is one of the false doctrines that constitute the wine of the abominations of Babylon, of which she makes all nations drink. That ministers of Christ should have accepted this heresy and proclaimed it from the sacred desk, is indeed a mystery. They received it from Rome, as they received the false Sabbath. True, it has been taught by great and good men; but the light on this subject had not come to them as it has come to us. They were responsible only for the light which shone in their time; we are accountable for that which shines in our day. If we turn from the testimony of God's word, and accept false doctrines because our fathers taught them, we fall under the condemnation pronounced upon Babylon; we are drinking of the wine of her abominations. {4SP 357.1}

Today, as in the days of Elijah, the line of demarcation

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between God's commandment-keeping people and the worshipers of false gods is clearly drawn. "How long halt ye between two opinions?" Elijah cried; "if the Lord be God, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him." 1 Kings 18:21. And the message for today is: "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen. . . . Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." Revelation 18:2, 4, 5. {PK 187.2}

"She made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Revelation 14:6-8). How is this done? By forcing men to accept a spurious sabbath.--8T 94 (1904). {LDE 198.2}

Not yet, however, can it be said that . . . "she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." She has not yet made all nations do this. . . . {LDE 198.3}

Not until this condition shall be reached, and the union of the church with the world shall be fully accomplished throughout Christendom, will the fall of Babylon be complete. The change is a progressive one, and the perfect fulfillment of Revelation 14:8 is yet future.--GC 389, 390 (1911). {LDE 198.4}

When do her sins reach unto heaven [Revelation 18:2-5]? When the law of God is finally made void by legislation.--ST June 12, 1893. {LDE 198.5}

God's Last Warning Message

God has given the messages of Revelation 14 their place in the line of prophecy and their work is not to cease

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till the close of this earth's history.--EGW'88 804 (1890). {LDE 198.6}

Revelation 18 points to the time when, as the result of rejecting the threefold warning of Revelation 14:6-12, the church will have fully reached the condition foretold by the second angel, and the people of God still in Babylon will be called upon to separate from her communion. This message is the last that will ever be given to the world.--GC 390 (1911). {LDE 199.1}

[Revelation 18:1, 2, 4, quoted.] This scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14 (verse 8), is to be repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given, in the summer of 1844. . . . These announcements, uniting with the third angel's message, constitute the final warning to be given to the inhabitants of the earth. . . . {LDE 199.2}

The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power--all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these.--GC 603, 604, 606 (1911). {LDE 199.3}

In this scripture the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel, [Revelation 14:8.] is repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the churches since 1844. A terrible condition of the religious world is here described. With every rejection of truth, the minds of the people have become darker, their hearts more stubborn, until they are entrenched in an infidel hardihood. In defiance of the warnings which God has given, they continue to trample upon one of the precepts of the decalogue, and they persecute those who hold it sacred. Christ is set at naught in the contempt placed upon his word and his people.

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As the teachings of Spiritualism are accepted by the churches, no real restraint is imposed upon the carnal heart, and the profession of religion becomes a cloak to conceal the basest iniquity. A belief in spiritual manifestations opens the door to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. The influence of evil angels is felt in the churches throughout the land. {4SP 421.2}

Of Babylon at this time it is declared, "Her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." [Revelation 18:5.] She has filled up the measure of her guilt, and destruction is about to fall upon her. But God still has a people in Babylon; and before the visitation of his judgments, these faithful ones must be called out, that they "partake not of her sins, and receive not of her plagues." Hence the movement symbolized by the angel coming down from Heaven, lightening the earth with his glory, and crying mightily with a strong voice, announcing the sins of Babylon. In connection with his message the call is heard, "Come out of her, my people." As these warnings join the third angel's message, it swells to a loud cry. {4SP 422.1}

Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that no man may buy or sell, save he that has the mark of the beast, and, finally, that whoever refuses to receive the mark shall be put to death. [Revelation 13:15, 17.] The word of God declares: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the

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cup of his indignation." [Revelation 14:9, 10.] But not one is made to feel the wrath of God until the truth has been brought in contact with his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. There are many in the churches of our country who have never, even in this land of light and knowledge, had an opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. The obligation of the fourth commandment has never been set before them in its true light. Jesus reads every heart, and tries every motive. The decree is not to be urged upon the people blindly. Every one is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently. The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty; for it is the point of truth especially controverted. {4SP 422.2}

Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. The prediction that Church and State would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God has been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been, the defender of religious freedom. But as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message produces an effect which it could not have had before. {4SP 423.1}

In every generation God has sent his servants to rebuke sin, both in the world and in the church. But the people desire smooth things spoken to them, and the pure, unvarnished truth is not acceptable. Many reformers, in entering upon their work, determined to exercise great prudence in attacking the sins of

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the church and the nation. They hoped, by the example of a pure Christian life, to lead the people back to the doctrines of the Bible. But the Spirit of God came upon them as it came upon Elijah, and they could not refrain from preaching the plain utterances of the Bible,--doctrines which they had been reluctant to present. They were impelled to zealously declare the truth, and the danger which threatened souls. The words which the Lord gave them they uttered, fearless of consequences, and the people were compelled to hear the warning. {4SP 423.2}

Thus will the message of the third angel be proclaimed. As the time comes for the loud cry to be given, the Lord will work through humble instruments, leading the minds of those who consecrate themselves to his service. The laborers will be qualified rather by the unction of his Spirit than by the training of literary institutions. Men of faith and prayer will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God gives them. The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of a union of Church and State, the inroads of Spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power,--all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands have never listened to words like these. In amazement they hear the testimony that Babylon is the church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from Heaven. The people go to their former teachers with the eager inquiry, Are these things so? The ministers present fables, prophesy smooth things, to soothe their fears, and quiet the awakened

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conscience. But many refuse to be satisfied with the mere authority of men, and demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord." The popular ministry, like the Pharisees of old, are filled with anger as their authority is questioned; they denounce the message as of Satan, and stir up the sin-loving multitudes to revile and persecute those who proclaim it. {4SP 424.1}

As the controversy extends into new fields, and the minds of the people are called to God's down-trodden law, Satan is astir. The power attending the message only maddens those who oppose it. The clergy put forth almost superhuman efforts to shut away the light, lest it should shine upon their flocks. By every means at their command they endeavor to suppress the discussion of these vital questions. The church appeals to the strong arm of civil power, and in this work, papists are solicited to come to the help of Protestants. The movement for Sunday enforcement becomes more bold and decided. The law is invoked against commandment-keepers. They are threatened with fines and imprisonment, and some are offered positions of influence, and other rewards and advantages, as inducements to renounce their faith. But their steadfast answer is, "Show us from the word of God our error,"--the same plea that was made by Luther under similar circumstances. Those who are arraigned before the courts make a strong vindication of the truth, and some who hear them are led to take their stand to keep all the commandments of God. Thus light is brought before thousands who otherwise would know nothing of these truths. {4SP 425.1}

Conscientious obedience to the word of God will be treated as rebellion. Blinded by Satan, the parent

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will exercise harshness and severity toward the believing child; the master or mistress will oppress the commandment-keeping servant. Affection will be alienated; children will be disinherited, and driven from home. The words of Paul will be literally fulfilled, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." [2 Timothy 3:12.]

As the defenders of truth refuse to honor the Sunday-Sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled, some will be treated as slaves. To human wisdom, all this now seems impossible; but as the restraining Spirit of God shall be withdrawn from men, and they shall be under the control of Satan, who hates the divine precepts, there will be strange developments. The heart can be very cruel when God's fear and love are removed. {4SP 425.2}

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third message, but have not been sanctified through it, abandon their position, and take refuge under the banner of the powers of darkness. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren. When Sabbath-keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them.

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{4SP 426.1}

The Lord's servants have faithfully given the warning, looking to God and to his word alone. They have not coolly calculated the consequences to themselves. They have not consulted their temporal interests, or sought to preserve their reputation or their lives. Yet when the storm of opposition and reproach bursts upon them, they are overwhelmed with consternation; and some are ready to exclaim, "Had we foreseen the consequences of our words, we would have held our peace." They are hedged in with difficulties. Satan assails them with fierce temptations. The work which they have undertaken seems far beyond their ability to accomplish. They are threatened with destruction. The enthusiasm which animated them is gone; yet they cannot turn back. Then, feeling their utter helplessness, they flee to the Mighty One for strength. They remember that the words which they have spoken were not theirs, but His who bade them give the warning. God put the truth into their hearts, and they could not forbear to proclaim it. {4SP 427.1}

[Sonny]

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5. We were shaped and conceived (the moment the sperm and egg united we were sin) in sin!!!!!! The plane clear English that needs no rewrite by Ellen White or anyone else!!!!!!

In other words we were born bent to self. That means everything we do be it sports, education, work, etc, is so that we can move up the ladder.

[John317]

On what constitutes Babylon:

Quote:

Among the Catholics there are many who are most conscientious Christians and who walk in all the light that shines upon them, and God will work in their behalf.--9T 243 (1909). {LDE 197.3}

In the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to

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be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith.--GC 383 (1911). {LDE 197.4}

Notwithstanding the spiritual darkness and alienation from God that exist in the churches which constitute Babylon, the great body of Christ's true followers are still to be found in their communion.--GC 390 (1911). {LDE 198.1}

This scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14 (verse 8), is to be repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given, in the summer of 1844. A terrible condition of the religious world is here described. With every rejection of truth the minds of the people will become darker, their hearts more stubborn, until they are entrenched in an infidel hardihood. In defiance of the warnings which God has given, they will continue to trample upon one of the precepts of the Decalogue, until they are led to persecute those who hold it sacred. Christ is set at nought in the contempt placed upon His word and His people. As the teachings of spiritualism are accepted by the churches, the

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restraint imposed upon the carnal heart is removed, and the profession of religion will become a cloak to conceal the basest iniquity. A belief in spiritual manifestations opens the door to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and thus the influence of evil angels will be felt in the churches. {GC 603.2}

Many of the Protestant churches are following Rome's example of iniquitous connection with “the kings of the earth;” the State churches, by their relation to secular governments, and other denominations by seeking the favor of the world. And the term Babylon—confusion—may be appropriately applied to these bodies, all professing to derive their doctrines from the Bible, yet divided into almost innumerable sects, with widely conflicting creeds and theories. {GC88 383.1}

The second angel's message of Revelation 14, was first preached in the summer of 1844, and it then had a more direct application to the churches of the United States, where the warning of the Judgment had been most widely proclaimed and most generally rejected, and where the declension in the churches had been most rapid. But the message of the second angel did not reach its complete fulfillment in 1844. The churches then experienced a moral fall, in consequence of their refusal of the light of the Advent message; but that fall was not complete. As they have continued to reject the special truths for this time, they have fallen lower and lower. Not yet, however, can it be said that “Babylon is fallen, . . . because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” She has not yet made all nations do this. The spirit of world-conforming and indifference to the testing truths for our time exists and has been gaining ground in churches of the Protestant faith in all the countries of Christendom; and these churches are included in the solemn and terrible denunciation of the second angel. But the work of apostasy has not yet reached its culmination. {GC88 389.2}

The Bible declares that before the coming of the Lord, Satan will work “with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness;” and they that “received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved,” will be left to receive “strong delusion, that they

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should believe a lie.” [2 Thessalonians 2:9-11.] Not until this condition shall be reached, and the union of the church with the world shall be fully accomplished, throughout Christendom, will the fall of Babylon be complete. The change is a progressive one, and the perfect fulfillment of Revelation 14:8 is yet future. {GC88 389.3}

Notwithstanding the spiritual darkness, and alienation from God, that exist in the churches which constitute Babylon, the great body of Christ's true followers are still to be found in their communion. There are many of these who have never seen the special truths for this time. Not a few are dissatisfied with their present condition, and are longing for clearer light. They look in vain for the image of Christ in the churches with which they are connected. As these bodies depart farther and farther from the truth, and ally themselves more closely with the world, the difference between the two classes will widen, and it will finally result in separation. The time will come when those who love God supremely can no longer remain in connection with such as are “lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.” {GC88 390.1}

Revelation 18 points to the time when, as the result of rejecting the threefold warning of Revelation 14:6-12, the church will have fully reached the condition foretold by the second angel, and the people of God, still in Babylon, will be called upon to separate from her communion. This message is the last that will ever be given to the world; and it will accomplish its work. When those that “believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness,” [2 Thessalonians 2:12.] shall be left to receive strong delusion, and to believe a lie, then the light of truth will shine upon all whose hearts are open to receive it, and all the children of the Lord, that remain in Babylon, will heed the call, “Come out of her, my people.” [Revelation 18:4.] {GC88 390.2}

Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. . . . {OFC 84.7}

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There is but one church in the world who are at the present time standing in the breach, and making up the hedge, building up the old waste places; and for any man to call the attention of the world and other churches to this church, denouncing her as Babylon, is to do a work in harmony with him who is the accuser of the brethren. . . .The whole world is filled with hatred of those who proclaim the binding claims of the law of God, and the church who are loyal to Jehovah must engage in no ordinary conflict. . . Those who have any realization of what this warfare means, will not turn their weapons against the church militant, but with all their powers will wrestle with the people of God against the confederacy of evil. {OFC 85.1}

Those who start up to proclaim a message on their own individual responsibility, who, while claiming to be taught and led of God, still make it their special work to tear down that which God has been for years building up, are not doing the will of God. Be it known that these men are on the side of the great deceiver. Believe them not. {OFC 85.2}

The Lord has not given you a message to call the Seventh-day Adventists Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her. All the reasons you may present cannot have weight with me on this subject, because the Lord has given me decided light that is opposed to such a message. . . . {LDE 51.2}

I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be.--2SM 63, 68, 69 (1893). {LDE 51.3}

I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body through whom He will work. . . . When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God's commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to

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pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track.--3SM 17, 18 (1893). {LDE 51.4}

Babylon is said to be “the mother of harlots.” By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing

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the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14 announcing the fall of Babylon, must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the Judgment, it must be given in the last days, therefore it cannot refer to the Romish Church, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation, in a message which is yet future, the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise, these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and his blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel, “Thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty; for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.” But they fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel,—the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. “Thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown.” {GC88 382.3}

Many of the Protestant churches are following Rome's example of iniquitous connection with “the kings of the earth;” the State churches, by their relation to secular governments, and other denominations by seeking the favor of the world. And the term Babylon—confusion—may be appropriately applied to these bodies, all professing to derive their doctrines from the Bible, yet divided into almost innumerable sects, with widely conflicting creeds and theories. {GC88 383.1}

Besides a sinful union with the world, the churches that separated from Rome present other of her characteristics. {GC88 383.2}

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A Romish work—the “Catholic Christian Instructed”— makes the charge: “If the Church of Rome was ever guilty of idolatry in relation to the saints, her daughter, the Church of England, stands guilty of the same, which has ten churches dedicated to Mary for one dedicated to Christ.” {GC88 384.1}

And Mr. Hopkins, in a treatise on the Millennium, declares: “There is no reason to consider the antichristian spirit and practices confined to what is now called the Church of Rome. The Protestant churches have much of antichrist in them, and are far from being wholly reformed from corruption and wickedness.” {GC88 384.2}

Concerning the separation of the Presbyterian Church from Rome, Dr. Guthrie writes: “Three hundred years ago, our church, with an open Bible on her banner, and this motto, ‘Search the Scriptures,’ on her scroll, marched out from the gates of Rome.” Then he asks the significant question, “Did they come clean out of Babylon?” {GC88 384.3}

“The Church of England,” says Spurgeon, “seems to be eaten through and through with sacramentarianism; but non-conformity appears to be almost as badly riddled with philosophical infidelity. Those of whom we thought better things are turning aside one by one from the fundamentals of the faith. Through and through, I believe, the very heart of England is honeycombed with a damnable infidelity which dares still go into the pulpit and call itself Christian.” {GC88 384.4}

What was the origin of the great apostasy? How did the church first depart from the simplicity of the gospel?—By conforming to the practices of paganism, to facilitate the acceptance of Christianity by the heathen. The apostle Paul declared, even in his day, “The mystery of iniquity doth already work.” [2 Thessalonians 2:7.] During the lives of the apostles the church remained comparatively pure. “But toward the latter end of the second century most of the churches assumed a new form, the first simplicity disappeared; and insensibly, as the old disciples retired to their graves, their

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children, along with new converts . . . came forward and new-modeled the cause.” [ROBINSON, IN HISTORY OF BAPTISM.] To secure converts, the exalted standard of the Christian faith was lowered, and as the result “a pagan flood, flowing into the church, carried with it its customs, practices, and idols.” [GAVAZZI'S LECTURES, P. 290.] As the Christian religion secured the favor and support of secular rulers, it was nominally accepted by multitudes; but while in appearance Christians, many “remained in substance pagans, especially worshiping in secret their idols.” [GAVAZZI'S LECTURES, P. 290.] {GC88 384.5}

Has not the same process been repeated in nearly every church calling itself Protestant? As its founders, those who possessed the true spirit of reform, pass away, their descendants come forward and “new model the cause.” While blindly clinging to the creed of their fathers and refusing to accept any truth in advance of what they saw, the children of the reformers depart widely from their example of humility, self-denial, and renunciation of the world. Thus “the first simplicity disappears.” A worldly flood, flowing into the church, “carries with it its customs, practices, and idols.” {GC88 385.1}

Angels were sent to aid the mighty angel from heaven, and I heard voices which seemed to sound everywhere, "Come out of her, my people." . . . The glory of God rested upon the patient, waiting saints, and they fearlessly gave the last solemn warning, proclaiming the fall of Babylon and calling upon God's people to come out of her that they might escape her fearful doom. Faith I Live By, chapter 11

God's work is to be carried forward with power. We need the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We need

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to understand that God will add to the ranks of His people men of ability and influence who are to act their part in warning the world. Not all in the world are lawless and sinful. God has many thousands who have not bowed the knee to Baal. There are God-fearing men and women in the fallen churches. If this were not so, we would not be given the message to bear: "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen." "Come out of her, My people." [Revelation 18:2, 4.] Many of the honest in heart are gasping for a breath of life from heaven. They will recognize the gospel when it is brought to them in the beauty and simplicity with which it is presented in God's word. . . . {GW 346.3}

[Sonny]

Only a remnant of the Remnant will be saved in God's kingdom.

And of course you belong to that special group, right?

Again, this is the spirit of Phariseeism.

[John317]

It may be that Adam chose. I am not asserting any of this from the sinless state of things. I am saying that Adam's guilt was passed on to us by God's fiat.

How is Adam's guilt passed on to us?

Originally Posted By: miz3

God could have given each human that came along a test just as He did Adam. If you or I did not have the sinful disposition we are born with and God tested us like He did Adam then that would be different. God chose not to do it that way. Instead God passed on to us Adam's guilt and the predisposition to do evil (what Paul calls the sinful nature or the flesh.

My point is that you and I were not given a chance to decide or to choose, we were declared lost even before we were born.

Our predispotion to do evil does not prevent us from being free moral agents. No one is condemned for being born with a sinful nature. If we are condemned, it is because of what we choose to do, not because of being related to Adam.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Only a remnant of the Remnant will be saved in God's kingdom.

And of course you belong to that special group, right?

Again, this is the spirit of Phariseeism.

Not necessarily. I could be lost. It depends on how I live my life for God or not. It depends on our choices. God has already made His choice. He wants me in His kingdom.

I have already made my choice, but it doesn't depend only on a choice I once made. We have to keep making that same choice for Christ every day, and not only in word but in action.

AS the Bible teaches, the Investigative Judgment will reeal who are really "in Christ" and who only say they are.

Is it true that only a remnant of the Remnant will be saved in god's kingdom?

[miz3]

Sonny is making some great points. John317 believes that he is part of a special group just like the pharisees of Christ's day who also refused to hear Jesus' plain and clear testimony. After all the Pharisees had it all figured out and there was no longer any need to question what they had already figured out from Scripture. They thus were hard, brittle, and blind.

Read again Psalm 51:5:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5.

The text is clear. We are sinful at the moment of conception when the sperm and the egg first meet. After that we shaped in iniquity. The Bible is not ambiguous. John317 is having a hard time because he is so wedded to his orthodoxy that he refuses to see the clear statements the Bible makes in plain English. Not difficult wording or difficult phrasing but clear and simple!!!!!!!!! Thus, we are born guilty, no let me correct myself, we are conceived guilty before any choice could ever be made!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell me John317 what does this text say?

[Sonny]

the Investigative Judgment will reveal who are really "in Christ" and who only say they are.

[John317]

Sonny is making some great points. John317 believes that he is part of a special group just like the pharisees of Christ's day who also refused to hear Jesus' plain and clear testimony.

This is false. I believe the Seventh-day Adventist church is the Remnant church just like the Bible and Ellen White teach. And, yes, I'm an active member of the SDA church.

It's no great point to deny that the SDA church is the Remnant church of prophecy.

I'm not saying anything like what the Pharisees taught, unless you want to say that Ellen White was a pharisee. What I'm saying can be found easily in the Bible and in her wiritngs.

Do you believe Ellen White was genuine prophet of God? Do you believe what she wrote in the Great Controversy?

[miz3]

Read again Psalm 51:5:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5.

The text is clear. We are sinful at the moment of conception when the sperm and the egg first meet. After that we shaped in iniquity. The Bible is not ambiguous. John317 is having a hard time because he is so wedded to his orthodoxy that he refuses to see the clear statements the Bible makes in plain English. Not difficult wording or difficult phrasing but clear and simple!!!!!!!!! Thus, we are born guilty, no let me correct myself, we are conceived guilty before any choice could ever be made!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell me John317 what does this text say?

[skyblue888]

John, just because Mrs. White was a genuine messenger and prophet of God does not make the professed church the remnant of God. The Jews were the professed people of God too and there was a remnant after A.D.34, the apostles and their converts.

If the professed church ("organized work") rejects the last offer of mercy, she too will be left behind and only those who receive the light will take part in giving the loud cry to the world. The remnant will be composed of those who will pass the scrutiny of the judgment of the living when the mission of the Gospel shall be completed and who will go through the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death.

sky

[John317]

Read again Psalm 51:5:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5.

The text is clear. We are sinful at the moment of conception when the sperm and the egg first meet. After that we shaped in iniquity. The Bible is not ambiguous. John317 is having a hard time because he is so wedded to his orthodoxy that he refuses to see the clear statements the Bible makes in plain English. Not difficult wording or difficult phrasing but clear and simple!!!!!!!!!

I have never denied that we are born with sinful natures. Of course we are.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Thus, we are born guilty, no let me correct myself, we are conceived guilty before any choice could ever be made!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The text doesn't say that. However, even if we were to say that we are born guilty of Adam's sin, that doesn't keep us from being free moral agents. Sinner are still free to choose to accept or rejct Christ. Whether we are guilty of Adam's sin also does not prevent us from resisting temptations and overcoming sin.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Tell me John317 what does this text say?

As for the meaning of the verse, it can be understood in different ways. It could mean that we are born in a sinful state. Or it could mean that we are guilty of sin from the moment of conception or birth. It could also simply mean that David was saying that the environment in which he was born or conceived was evil. Notice he doesn't say "I was evil or guilty of sin from the moment of my birth."

Check out the various translations and commentaries. You'll see that not all in perfect agreement as to its significance.

[skyblue888]

Read again Psalm 51:5:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5.

The text is clear. We are sinful at the moment of conception when the sperm and the egg first meet. After that we shaped in iniquity. The Bible is not ambiguous. John317 is having a hard time because he is so wedded to his orthodoxy that he refuses to see the clear statements the Bible makes in plain English. Not difficult wording or difficult phrasing but clear and simple!!!!!!!!! Thus, we are born guilty, no let me correct myself, we are conceived guilty before any choice could ever be made!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell me John317 what does this text say?

Robert, of course we were born sinful and sinful we remain until we receive a new body. But through the merits of Christ, the Holy Spirit is imparted to us to subdue all our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil and to impress Christ's character upon us until the full corn is in the ear. (Mark 4:26-29) Then He will come to take His people home.

sky

[Sonny]

I believe the Seventh-day Adventist church is the Remnant church just like the Bible and Ellen White teach.

It isn't the remnant....

[John317]

John, just because Mrs. White was a genuine messenger and prophet of God does not make the professed church the remnant of God.

What is the remnant church? Who are they?

Is the Seventh-day Adventist church part of Babylon?

And why are you a member today of the Seventh-day Adventist church?

[miz3]

Yes, John317 the fact that we are conceived sinfulmeans that we cannot be "free moral agents"because the bias of the sinful nature will not let us be "free to choose"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can you in the face of such obvious evidence continue to say otherwise?

[Sonny]

The text doesn't say that.

We stand condemned because of our position from Adam. We receive from him nothing but condemnation. Why? We are born bent to self. Our natures make us guilty before we even sin outwardly.

Ellen White: We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences ; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression. [FW 88]

[John317]

I believe the Seventh-day Adventist church is the Remnant church just like the Bible and Ellen White teach.

Originally Posted By: Sonny

It isn't the remnant....

Is it a part of Babylon?

What is the SDA church, in your opinion?

Are you a member? If so, why?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

John, just because Mrs. White was a genuine messenger and prophet of God does not make the professed church the remnant of God.

What is the remnant church? Who are they?

Is the Seventh-day Adventist church part of Babylon?

And why are you a member today of the Seventh-day Adventist church?

John, you don't get it. Was not the Jewish church the professed people of God? yes, of course. Yet that church sealed her rejection of God's mercy in A.D.34. Is not the Adventist church the professed people of God? Of course. But that does not mean that its members are automatically the remnant. The remnant are those who receive the final seal when the mission of the Gospel is completed.

sky

[Sonny]

...we cannot be "free moral agents" because the bias of the sinful nature will not let us be "free to choose"!!

It's true we are born bent to self, which is the opposite of agape. However, God can reach us in our depravity and as we begin to understand His love (through revelation) we can choose to accept Him. Once this is done God begins to bring the mind/heart around in a new direction. This is what it means to be born again. However, just because our mind has a new direction doesn't mean our natures do too.....We still retain those awful natures until we die. And so we struggle....

[Sonny]

Is it a part of Babylon?

[skyblue888]

John317, you know that shortly after 1844 Christ should have returned but He did not because of unbelief on the part of the Advent believers. Then God sent a most precious message between 1888 and 1901 but the light was resisted. In 1901 the Lord said we would have to remain in this world many more years because of insubordination. Fifty four years later the pillars of our faith were compromised in order to be recognized by the churches that constitute Babylon. And now if the last offer of mercy is resisted and the bearers of the message character assassinated, the "organized work" will be left behind and the Lord will finish the work with the bearers of the message and their converts just as He sent the last message of mercy to the Jewish people after the crucifixion but the message was rejected and followed by a great persecution which forced the disciples and their converts to turn to the Gentiles.

History will be repated.

sky