Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[John317]

John, the Advent Movement was of God, of course, but the question is, What has become of the people who were called to be the remnant?

Is the movement of God now?

I am not asking if the church is perfect or if the church has done many mistakes and sins. I am asking you if the church is still God's church or if it is a part of Babylon.

[Sonny]

Jesus as God took upon His sinless nature our sinful fallen nature. That's Ellen White. As God He is immortal - He is sinless. But taking upon His deity our fallen humanity, that life stood condemned, but not because He sinned.

2 Cor 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law [under the curse]

Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree")

Jones: Thus, when He was made under the law, He was made all that it means to be under the law. He was made guilty; He was made condemned; He was made a curse.

I noticed, John, that you completely ignored the above. Why?

The fact that you have a sinful nature deprives you of heaven. It makes you a sinner.

Christ as the Son of God is sinless, but as the Son of Man He was made sin. The Bible clearly brings this out. This doesn't mean that He ever sinned in His mind or heart. Still, because He associated Himself with us by taking upon His divine nature our fallen nature, that moment He stood condemned. He was made sin, made a curse.

[Gerr]

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was born with a sinful nature?

"Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh." Rom.1:3.

sky

If Jesus had a sinful nature, He would have needed a Saviour also.

BTW, how did a discussion of free moral agency to the nature of Christ?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

If we were all guilty of what Adam did

We aren't....That's original sin, which is a heresy.

Sez who?

ESV | Ro 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Quote:

If He had a sinful nature like His mother, He would have needed a Saviour himself, just like his mother.

[miz3]

There is a difference between God not able to ever going somewhere and having the ability to go there.

God may never lie because He delights in truth. However, the fact that God never lies is not because He is incapable of doing so.

God may never change because He delights in that. However, the fact that God never changes is not because He is incapable of doing so.

etc. etc.

God does not have some wall around Him preventing Him from going beyond it. There are just places God chooses not to go!!!!!!!!!! He could go but chooses to never go there and promises to never go there!

The KEY IS: THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOUNDARIES PREVENTING ACCESS AND ONE CHOOSING NOT TO ACCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[miz3]

Maybe I need to start a new thread on the Nature of Christ!

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Whatever God does is RIGHT even if to us it seems to be contradictory!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Very true, but the clarifier is the "seems".

Yes, doug, and it also is far different from saying that whatever God could do is right. Theoretically speaking, God could force our wills, but it would be wrong if He did so. Again, theoretically, God could control us so that we would not be free but would be compelled to do many things against our will, but God would not be right to do it.

Of course, I do not believe God could really do those things because they are opposed to His very nature, which is that of agape/love. But if He were to change and do those things, He would then be the same as the Devil. (This is one reason God assures us that He does not change, because any change on the part of a perfect God can only be to become less perfect, never to become more perfect.)

The whole point I am making here is that the Judgment will examine what has occcurred during the great controversy between Christ and Satan, and it will be determined that God was right-- not because God is all-powerful, but because God will be shown to be righteous and loving and merciful and worthy of being worshipped, admired and loved.

Rev. 19:1-2

After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out,

"Hallelujah!

Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

[2] for his judgments are true and just;

for he has judged the great prostitute

who corrupted the earth with her immorality,

and has avenged on her the blood of his servants."

You said what I was trying to say (or communicate),only in a clearer way.When we try to describe the theoretical God we are limited to only what we think we know about the nature of Divinity based upon a comparison with what we do know about the nature of fallen humanity.The revelation of HImself thru His various means,particularly thru the story of redemption,is a legitimate way humanity can put God in a place(a box)where they can begin to understand, pursue, and partake of the Divine Nature. "That they may know You,the only true God,and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." By the way, what does and [i/] represent?

[doug yowell]

There is a difference between God not able to ever going somewhere and having the ability to go there.

God may never lie because He delights in truth. However, the fact that God never lies is not because He is incapable of doing so.

God may never change because He delights in that. However, the fact that God never changes is not because He is incapable of doing so.

etc. etc.

God does not have some wall around Him preventing Him from going beyond it. There are just places God chooses not to go!!!!!!!!!! He could go but chooses to never go there and promises to never go there!

This may or may not be true. Do we know enough about the ontological nature of God to be able to be assured that this is the case? We all agree that God is constrained to do right and not be tempted to do evil because of His Nature. Whether His nature is determined by His choices is not clear from revelation.

One thing we can know for sure is His thoughts,actions, and motives all work in perfect consistency. His offer of Salvation applies to all human beings along with His reluctant willingness to eventually ask,"Is that your final answer?"

[miz3]

Once again you say God does not lie because that would be wrong as if lying is wrong apart from God. Lying is wrong not because it is inherently wrong. It is wrong because God says it is wrong.

God says: "I change not!" God didn't say this because "change" in and of itself is wrong. God just does not change because He delights to do so!!!!!!!!!!!

Taking the name of God in vain is wrong because God says it is wrong!

As I said before God is the "Definer" God is NOT DEFINED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[doug yowell]

Once again you say God does not lie because that would be wrong as if lying is wrong apart from God. Lying is wrong not because it is inherently wrong. It is wrong because God says it is wrong.

That's a scary thought. If God said that lying was right and good then lying would be right and God would still be God? Is that arbitrary declaration removed from the reality of what lying is and does?

[doug yowell]

God says: "I change not!" God didn't say this because "change" in and of itself is wrong. God just does not change because He delights to do so!!!!!!!!!!!

And He delights to do so because...???

[teresaq]

Once again you say God does not lie because that would be wrong as if lying is wrong apart from God. Lying is wrong not because it is inherently wrong. It is wrong because God says it is wrong.

God says: "I change not!" God didn't say this because "change" in and of itself is wrong. God just does not change because He delights to do so!!!!!!!!!!!

Taking the name of God in vain is wrong because God says it is wrong!

As I said before God is the "Definer" God is NOT DEFINED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you saying you don't see sin as a killer? God made up laws against things that would be ok otherwise?

[miz3]

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" Matthew 19:26.

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." Mark 10:27.

"For nothing is impossible with God." Luke 1:37.

"Jesus replied, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.” Luke 18:27.

It appears to me that God is unbounded. God can make anything, anything He wants too. Its in PLAIN ENGLISH no explanations or translations necessary!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[miz3]

Teresa,

God made everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anything if it exists was defined by God. That includes the "thing" and the consequences that go with it. Thus, God by fiat stated that lying is wrong (a sin punishable by death) and God stated that the consequences of lying would be all the bad stuff we know come from lying.

Lying or anything else does not exist nor its consequences without God's defining it and all that is attached to it. Lying does not exist as an eternal entity on its own. Lying is evil along with all of its appendages because God says so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Since nothing is impossible with God (see texts above) God and God alone determines what is evil and what the consequences are and whether those consequences are also bad.

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

John 1:3.

[teresaq]

So you don't see sin as a killer? God made up laws against things that would be ok otherwise?

In other words Lucifer, in becoming jealous of Christ and wishing to be equal with God, was ok? It was ok for him to go around making innuendos about God and Christ and causing the angels to wonder about the goodness of God?

And it was ok for Adam and Eve to eat of a tree that did not belong to them-which makes it stealing-and which they had been specifically asked to leave alone?

There was nothing harmful in, and of those things, only that God would "kill" them for doing it?

And somehow, that God can make torturing other humans not painful and evil, for example?

[miz3]

Sin is sin because God says so!!!!!!!!!!

The consequences of sin are the consequences of sin because God says so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God said if Adam and Eve eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they would die. God made the tree just like He made all the other trees. He defined this tree and He defined the consequences concerning this tree. Adam and Eve ate of the fruit and they indeed suffered the consequences just as God said. Could God have defined it differently of course but He did not. It delighted Him to define it as He did.

Remember nothing is impossible with God!!!!! That is a clear flat out statement from Scripture. Either the statement is true or it is not true. I accept and have Faith, Trust, and Belief that those texts in the Bible are true!!!!!!!!!!

[miz3]

Sin kills because God says so and defines so!!!!!!!!!

[teresaq]

You made this post while I was forming one...

Quote:

Lying does not exist as an eternal entity on its own.

You were making "superficial" sense until this statement. I believe most would agree with that statement without agreeing with your conclusions. Lying is a part of evil, and evil did not exist before Lucifer. Therefore evil is not an eternal entity on its own--and would have to be declared "good" somehow by God.

In other words, God would have to somehow make all the results of evil good, or declare that hurting ourselves and others was a good thing, as I see it.

[teresaq]

Well, I'm going to have to take my leave now, 'cause I just don't think this is a fruitful way of spending my time. But you have a good day. :)

[John317]

If He had a sinful nature like His mother, He would have needed a Saviour himself, just like his mother.

The reason Christ was perfect and sinless was not simply because of the way He was born, but because of His choices. Sin is primarily choice and not nature. If Satan could point to Christ's different nature as the reason for His victory over sin, Satan would triumph, because it would prove that God's law cannot be obeyed by normal human beings. It would only prove that God's law can be obeyed by someone who is exempt.

Did Christ inherit the same genes as his mother, who had a sinful nature just like the rest of humanity? If so, he inherited genes after thousands of years of sin. Was he really related to David and Rahab and Abraham? If so, then Jesus inherited their genetic makeup.

The reason Jesus didn't need a Savior is that whenever He was faced with a choice whether to obey God or not, Jesus always chose to resist sin and obey God.

[John317]

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" Matthew 19:26.

....It appears to me that God is unbounded. God can make anything, anything He wants too. Its in PLAIN ENGLISH no explanations or translations necessary!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus is assuming that people have common sense, so that when He said that 'wtih God all things are possible," He obviously meant "all good things" are possible. Lying would not be a good thing, nor would many other things, such as manipulating his creatures into believing He is something He is not.

If we take Jesus' words out of context, it could mean that God can will Himself into non-existence. But is that possible? Of course not. God cannot possibly cease to exist. Do you agree?

Can God be both self-existent and eternal at the same time that He is non-existent? If not, then all things are not possible with God. Yet Jesus' words are true because He never intended for us to believe that God can do anything we can imagine.

The context of Christ's words are that all things in harmony with His will and character are possible with Him.

That is why lying is not possible for God-- it is contrary to God's character of unselfish love and righteousness.

[miz3]

Why does sin have so much power?

Why does Satan have so much power?

In other words what is the source of their power? Is their power and their ability have life inherent in them?

[miz3]

John317,

I did not write the Words of Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ made these Word without qualification.

You just added to the Word of God by making a qualifier! Do you have the right to "qualify" the Words of God?

You can raise all paradoxes you want. Such paradoxes do not change the Word of God even though your post tried to change the Word of God by inserting your "common sense" and "your paradoxes"!!!!! Can you read God's mind so that you can translate to us what He actually meant as if God did not clarify Himself enough!!!!!! Are you in doing so asserting that God really is not perfect?

Shame on you!!!!!!

[John317]

Sin is sin because God says so!!!!!!!!!!

The consequences of sin are the consequences of sin because God says so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember nothing is impossible with God!!!!! That is a clear flat out statement from Scripture. Either the statement is true or it is not true. I accept and have Faith, Trust, and Belief that those texts in the Bible are true!!!!!!!!!!

Are you compelled to write this way? Or are you completely free to choose to write and say what you do?

Just wondering in light of your other posts which deny that humans are free moral agents.

Do you trust the entire Bible as fully as you trust the statement of Jesus that with God all things are possible?

If you do, then you must also fully trust the statement that God cannot possibly lie. Lying is absolutely impossible for God to do.

And since God IS (not HAS) agape/love, God cannot do anything contrary to agape/love. And since God is all-wise, God cannot possibly do anything unwise or foolish. Again, since God IS good, He cannot possibly do anything that is not good. It may at first appear to be "bad" to us, but ultimately it will be seen to be good.

[miz3]

What I said in my last post is typical of humans because they want to bring God down closer to themselves and by asserting that they are "free moral agents" humans are elevating themselves to be on a par with the God.

This is typical what the "sinful nature" does in the human entity.

When God truly comes into to the heart of humanity and changes the human to be truly Sanctified then and only then will the human realize the Truth about God and the Truth about themselves.