Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[miz3]

I have a question for you that has been bugging me for years. No one has yet been able to give me a credible answer.

Where in the Bible does it say that humans have a "free will" and/or "freedom of choice" and/or are "free moral agents"? I find no where in the Scriptural Record either these terms or even an indirect allusion that such exists.

Given the above, where do SDA's get that humans are "free moral agents" and/or have a "free will" and/or have "freedom of choice"? The SDA book stating the 27 beliefs on page 85 states clearly that SDA's believe humans are free moral agents, have free will, and freedom of choice. Yet they give no scripture to back up their statement. On page 87 they again state what was said on page 85. Again no Scripture is given to back their assertion. A third assertion that humans are free moral agents is made on page 89 but the referenced texts have nothing to do with "free moral agency", "free will", or "free choice".

So again I ask, where in the Biblical Record does the doctrine of "free moral agency", and/or "free will", and/or "freedom of choice" exist? In addition, if it does not exist in Scripture then where did SDA's get this doctrine?

[Gerr]

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Dt 30:19). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Jos 24:15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Heb 11:24–25). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

7 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009 (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.) (Re 22:17). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

[Sonny]

We have the power of choice when it comes to accepting God. We don't have the power of choice to say no to our love of self. Only God, if given permission, can produce such a change.

[Rhett]

My understanding is this; our first parents where made perfect and given free will. God placed a test of loyalty and obedience before them in the garden (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). They failed the test and fell into sin. Mankind has been on probation ever since. Being born of sin (Psalms 51:5 & Romans 5:12) we can still exercise our free will to choose the solution to our fallen state which is "Christ in us the hope of glory", "Christ and him crucified". We are all on probation until we die and daily we must choose whom we will serve. We are free to step out of our saving relationship with Christ at any time and choose to serve self, a poor use of our free will. The probation for all human kind will end when Michael stands up (Daniel 12:1) and probation closes (Revelation 22:11 & 15:8. All alive at that point will have chosen one side or the other. Christ comes in victorious glory and the just will be restored back to their original state before the fall of Adam but still retain free will, the wicked will be destroyed.

[miz3]

Thank you to those who have responded. I am however troubled by your answers. Let me point out a few things in regard to your responses.

Definition of "Free Choice", "Free Will", and/or "Free Moral Agent".

“free will in humans, the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints. Free will is denied by those who espouse any of various forms of determinism. Arguments for free will are based on the subjective experience of freedom, on sentiments of guilt, on revealed religion, and on the universal supposition of responsibility for personal actions that underlies the concepts of law, reward, punishment, and incentive. In theology, the existence of free will must be reconciled with God's omniscience and goodness (in allowing man to choose badly), and with divine grace, which allegedly is necessary for any meritorious act. A prominent feature of modern Existentialism is the concept of a radical, perpetual, and frequently agonizing freedom of choice. Jean-Paul Sartre, for example, speaks of the individual "condemned to be free" even though his situation may be wholly determined.”

Encyclopedia Britannica, 2008. Encyclopedia Britannica Online.

Those that believe that humans are Free Moral Agents believe they have a pristine place or entity that allows them to have Free Choice. This pristine entity is not influenced in any way shape or form by any other entity or force and that this Free Choice is their power to decide what is Righteous and what is Unrighteous.

Take Deuteronomy 30:19 for instance. Many look at that text and say, “here it is in clear black and white, the word is ‘choose’ and that’s a fact”. However, Israel neither by group, nor by individual is not in a neutral position where they then must choose between two entities. To be a Free Choicer the entity making the “choice” must be in a neutral position. If they are not in neutral then they are by default in one way or the other tipping one way or the other. Depending on which way they are tipping the advantage goes to the way they are tipping. Thus by definition it is not a Free Choice at all. In fact this is true of ALL the texts in the Bible that seem to be calling on humans to make a “Choice”. Secondly, I would like to point out that the human default position is not free but is in fact slavery to “sin” and to “hatred of God”. The Bible is very emphatic about this. In fact, the Bible states that humans are in this “hatred of God and all He stands for” to such an extent that they can only do “evil”!!!!!!!! The Bible never, ever by direct or any type of indirect means states that humans are in the “neutral” position. How then can humans ever be “Free Choicers or Free Moral Agents” since the Bible states that our default position is hatred for God and all His ways? See also Romans chapter where we are told that no one is Righteous and thus incapable of "choosing" good.

The Bible including Deuteronomy 30 and the others are not talking about humans having "Free Choice" or being "Free Moral Agents". I remain still puzzled!

[olger]

yes,

G

(answer is to the original question).

[olger]

"Let whosoever will come and take of the water of life freely".

I think your question is a valid one. I do think that you are giving pre-eminence to the verses that define our fallen nature by setting them in opposition to the many verses that define choices.

See Ezekiel 33 for instance..

[miz3]

Olger and Gerry, where in the Bible does it say we are "Free Moral Agents"? Deuteronomy chapter 30 does not say so, Joshua chapter 24 does not say so, Hebrews chapter 11 does not say so, and Revelation 22 does not say so!

There appears to be no place in the Bible where the Doctrine of Free Moral Agency exists. Any "choices" made in the texts cited in the previous paragraph are not free and unbiased. All the humans in those cases had a mixed bias,and/or total bias toward both good and/or evil.

Is there some place in the humans entity that is "pristine"? If so where in the Bible does it state that such a "pristine" unbiased place exists so that the human entity can make a "choice"?

[olger]

Ezekiel 33 describes a setting where a wicked man "turns" from his evil way and is saved. The story makes no sense if humans do not have the machinery to "turn." Ie, repent. Repentance involves a choice..no?

As to your rhetorical question, where in the Bible does it say to not beat your wife with a radiator hose? Nowhere. You study and discover many verses and principles that condemn such things.

[miz3]

Olger,

The machinery to "turn" comes from God. Humans have no capacity within themselves to "turn". The unfortunate thing is that many humans REJECT the power from God to "turn".

John chapter 15 verses 1-5 state that without God (Jesus Christ)"we can do nothing"! Nothing means nothing. It does not mean you do a little and God does a lot.

See also Romans chapter 11 and Ephesians 2 the first 10 verses. These texts state that it is God's work not human work or human "choice" or human "turn". This way only God can boast. If we are able to by the "machinery of free choice" and/or the machinery of "free moral agency" than we can boast that we did something even if that something is the smallest of small.

I need more and it must be clear and unambiguous. Thanks for you help.

[olger]

Agreed that every good and perfect gift comes from God. Bible tells us that. If the power to choose is a gift from God, that doesn't automatically mean that there is a line of control going back to the Giver.

If I give my son a $100 and say "you can't spend it, only I can" - I haven't given him anything at all.

blessings,

[miz3]

Olger,

First, you are giving illustrations not Biblical facts.

Second, your illustration breaks down because you assume that your son is an independent entity. The Bible states (Read the Book of Romans)that humans are not independent entities. They are dependent on whomever is their master. As Paul states we are either governed by the "sinful nature" or we are governed by the Holy Spirit. As Ephesians chapter 2 states we were once slaves to sin but now are slaves to Jesus Christ. That is why we cannot boast. Your son in your illustration is not your slave. Thus your illustration breaks down.

If were independent entities you might have something. Again, John 15:1-5 states that we are not independent but totally dependent. To have and be a "Free Moral Agent" and/or to have "Free Choice" we have to be independent operators or have some part of our being be "free and independent" of any other entity whatsoever!

My question still is where in the Bible is this "independent" entity stated as existing and/or where in the Bible does it state that we humans have the power of "choice", "free moral agency", or "free choice"?

I can't see it or find it.

[Gerr]

Olger and Gerry, where in the Bible does it say we are "Free Moral Agents"? Deuteronomy chapter 30 does not say so, Joshua chapter 24 does not say so, Hebrews chapter 11 does not say so, and Revelation 22 does not say so!

That's like asking, where in the Bible does it say that one cannot smoke! Of course, the Bible nowhere states that "you are free moral agents!!!" If you have multiple options and you are allowed to choose any one of those options, you have free choice, a free moral agent.

[miz3]

Thank you Gerry! That settles it. There is no where in the Bible that states humans are "free moral agents".

First, there is no Biblical prohibition on smoking. We do not smoke because we don't want to get cancer and die. In addition smoking and all tobacco activities are really filthy and ugly. Most people even those who smoke, chew, etc. agree with the filth part and also the cancer part. We do not smoke, chew or whatever because of what we know about tobacco not because the Bible says so. Is tobacco use a sin? I don't know that! Such questions must be answered by referring to Romans chapter 14. I would never use tobacco and if I were to try and convince someone not to use tobacco I would never, ever use the Bible to say so. I would only cite what we know about tobacco which is that it leads to cancer on a very high probability scale and that it is filthy and ugly.

Second, when humans have options they do not take one option as opposed to another option because they are "free moral agents". They decide based on what they are. If they are slaves to the sinful nature they will take the option that the sinful nature dictates. If they are slaves to Jesus Christ the will take the option that the Holy Spirit dictates they take. It is all about who is your master. Jesus Christ, Himself, stated that a human cannot serve two masters. That means the human entity is either serving the master Jesus Christ or the human entity is serving the master the Sinful Nature. Paul in the Book of Romans is constantly making the slave-master Principle the center of the gospel. He always described himself as the "slave of Jesus Christ".

Thus it is never a matter of choice but a matter of who is your Master!!!!!!!!

[Gerr]

Thank you Gerry! That settles it. There is no where in the Bible that states humans are "free moral agents".

BBBBUUUUUUT.... when God through his prophets says, "I set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore CHOOSE life..." What does that tell you? That you have NO choice?

Quote:

First, there is no Biblical prohibition on smoking.

BBBUUUT.... does not the Word say, our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit? And that defiling that temple is a no no? The Bible gives us principles, not detailed statements for every possible scenario.

Quote:

Thus it is never a matter of choice but a matter of who is your Master!!!!!!!!

And how does one become the slave of one or the other?

[skyblue888]

You guys ever read the debate betwen Dr. Eck (catholic doctor) and Carlstadt (reformer) on the subject of free will, from D'Aubigne's History of the Sixteenth Century?

sky

[Gerr]

No.

[skyblue888]

You should. :)

[Gerr]

I know what the Bible says about choice.

[miz3]

Gerry,

We already covered what Deuteronomy 30 is. Go back and see that it is not talking to people who are "free moral agents". Are there choices? Yes of course there are choices. The fact that one has a choice does not in of itself make one a "free moral agent". As we have already established we decide based on what we are a slave to.

Second the fact that your body is the temple of God (Holy Spirit) does not dictate that smoking is a sin. Do you hurt your body when you eat all that sugar at Sabbath pot luck? Do you hurt your body when you do not get enough sleep? Do you hurt your body eating this or that? Do you keep a micrometer list so that you take in exactly only the "good" stuff your body requires? We could make an endless list. Just how good are you at keeping your body in perfect shape to be the temple of God? In this regard I suspect that all humans have their hypocrisy showing. So we cannot use this text to state that smoking or doing drugs or whatever is a sin. We can only speak for ourselves as to whether or not it is a sin (see Romans chapter 14)!We can however point out the damage that is true fact to those who do such things will face.

One becomes a slave of the sinful nature simply by being conceived. Paul in Romans and in his other writings explicitly states so. One becomes a slave of Jesus Christ by not REJECTING THE HOLY SPIRIT who will indeed come to us as a gift from God into you to make changes (see John chapter 3 and Romans 7 & 8 and Ephesians 2:1-10). See also 1Corinthians 6:19-20 which states that the Holy Spirit is already in us. See also 2Corinthians 1:22 and 1Corinthians 7:23. As Ephesians chapter 2 states it is God's work alone so that no one can boast. Read it for yourself.

[LifeHiscost]

Where in the Bible does it say that humans have a "free will" and/or "freedom of choice" and/or are "free moral agents"?

So again I ask, where in the Biblical Record does the doctrine of "free moral agency", and/or "free will", and/or "freedom of choice" exist? In addition, if it does not exist in Scripture then where did SDA's get this doctrine?

"Speak to the Israelites, that they take for Me an offering. From every man who gives it willingly and ungrudgingly with his heart you shall take My offering."Exodus 25:2 AMP

God Blesses!

[skyblue888]

Here is an interesting excerpt of the debate between them on the subject of free will from D'Aubigne's book Volume 5, chapter 4:

“Man’s will, before his conversion,” said Carlstadt, “can perform no good work: every good work comes entirely and exclusively from God, who gives man first the will to do, and then the power of accomplishing.” This truth had been proclaimed by Scripture, which says: It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure; and by Saint Augustine, who, in his dispute with the Pelagians, had enunciated it in nearly the same terms. Every work in which the love of God and obedience towards Him do not exist is deprived in the eyes of the Almighty of all that can render it good, even should it originate in the best of human motives. Now there is in man natural opposition to God — an opposition that the unaided strength of man cannot surmount. He has neither the will nor the power to overcome it. This must therefore effected by the Divine will.

This is the whole question of free will — so simple, and yet so decried by the world. Such had been the doctrine of the Church. But the schoolmen had so explained it that it was not recognizable.

Undoubtedly (said they) the natural will of man can do nothing really pleasing to God; but it can do much towards rendering men meet to receive the grace of God, and more worthy to obtain it. They called these preparations a merit of congruity: “because it is congruous,” said Thomas Aquinas, that God should treat with particular favor him who makes good use of his own will.” And, as regards the conversion to be effected in man, undoubtedly it must be accomplished by the grace of God, which (according to the schoolmen) should bring it about, but not to the exclusion of his natural powers.” These powers (said they) were not destroyed by sin: sin only opposes an obstacle to their development; but so soon as this obstacle is removed (and it was this, in their opinion, that the grace of God had to effect) the action of these powers begins again. The bird, to use one of their favorite comparisons, that has been tied for some time, has in this state neither lost its ability nor forgotten the art of flying; but some hand must loose the bonds, in order that he may again make use of his wings. This is the case with man, said they. Such was the question agitated between Eck and Carlstadt.

At first Eck had appeared to oppose all Carlstadt’s propositions on this subject; but finding his position untenable, he said: “I grant that the will has not the power of doing a good work, and that it receives this power from God” — “Do you acknowledge then,” asked Carlstadt, overjoyed at obtaining so important a concession, “that every good work comes entirely from God?” — “The whole good work really proceeds from God, but not wholly,” cunningly replied the scholastic doctor. — “Truly, this is a discovery not unworthy of the science of divinity,” exclaimed Melancthon. — “An entire apple,” continued Eck, “is produced by the sun, but not entirely and without the co-operation of the plant.”

Most certain it has never yet been maintained that an apple is produced solely by the sun. Well then, said the opponents, plunging deeper into this important and delicate question of philosophy and religion, let us inquire how God acts upon man, and how man conducts himself under this action. “I acknowledge,” said Eck, “that the first impulse in man’s conversion proceeds from God, and that the will of man in this instance is entirely passive.” Thus far the two parties were agreed. “I acknowledge,” said Carlstadt, “that after this first impulse which proceeds from God, something must come on the part of man, — something that St. Paul denominates will, and which the fathers entitle consent.” Here again they were both agreed: but from this point they diverged. “This consent of man,” said Eck, “comes partly from our natural will, and partly from God’s grace.” — “No,” said Carlstadt, “God must entirely create this will in man.” —

Upon this Eck manifested anger and astonishment at hearing words so fitted to make man sensible of his nothingness. “Your doctrine,” exclaimed he, “converts a man into a stone, a log, incapable of any reaction!” — “What!” replied the reformers, “the faculty of receiving this strength which God produces in him, this faculty which (according to us) man possesses, does not sufficiently distinguish him from a log or a stone?” — “But,” said their antagonist, “by denying that man has any natural ability, you contradict all experience.” —

“We do not deny,” replied they, “that man possesses a certain ability, and that he has the power of reflection, meditation, and choice. We consider this power and ability as mere instruments that can produce no good work, until the hand of God has set them in motion. They are like a saw in the hands

of a sawyer.”

The great doctrine of free will was here discussed; and was easy to demonstrate that the doctrine of the reformers did not deprive man of his liberty as a moral agent, and make him a mere passive machine. The liberty of a moral agent consists in his power of acting conformably to his choice. Every action performed without external constraint, and in consequence of the determination of the soul itself, is a free action. The soul is determined by motives; but we continually observe the same motives acting differently on different minds. Many men do not act in conformity with the motives of which, however, they acknowledge the full force. This inefficacy of motives proceeds from the obstacles opposed to them by the corruption of the understanding, and of the heart. But God, by giving man a new heart and a new spirit, removes these obstacles; and by removing them, far from depriving him of his liberty, He takes away, on the contrary, everything that prevented him from acting freely, from listening to the voice of his conscience, and, in the words of the Gospel, makes him free indeed. (John 8:36).

sky

[karl]

Where in the Bible does it say that humans have a "free will" and/or "freedom of choice" and/or are "free moral agents"?

So again I ask, where in the Biblical Record does the doctrine of "free moral agency", and/or "free will", and/or "freedom of choice" exist? In addition, if it does not exist in Scripture then where did SDA's get this doctrine?

John 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Where in the Bible does it say that humans have a "free will" and/or "freedom of choice" and/or are "free moral agents"?

So again I ask, where in the Biblical Record does the doctrine of "free moral agency", and/or "free will", and/or "freedom of choice" exist? In addition, if it does not exist in Scripture then where did SDA's get this doctrine?

John 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The Scriptures are full of such indications. "...for to will is present with me...Rom.7:18

"...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..." Joshua 24:15

"How long will you halt between two opinions...?" IKings 18:20-24

"...if anyone wills to do His will..." John 7:17

ect...

[miz3]

Sky,

The debate is interesting. However, they both are not in line with what Scripture says. 2Corinthians 9:8 states that through and through all of it, it is the work of God in us that produces and not the work of humans plus God.

Philippians 1:6 says that the work GOD BEGAN IN US HE WILL ALSO CARRY US TO ITS COMPLETION (my paraphrase). Read the text itself. God not only starts the work in us but God completes the work in us. It is God from beginning to end. Doesn't Revelation tell us that God is the "alpha and the omega" that is the beginning and the end.

Thus, Scripture never ever supports that it is human will of any shape, form, or kind at any point whatsoever.

Remember in the beginning "God formed man from the dust of the ground". Did God form us and then we breathed or did the rest? No we were just a form of dirt until God breathed in us the "breath of Life". We live because God did it all in the physical world and same is true in the Spiritual World. We live spiritually because God does it all for us.

Thanks for adding good stuff to the dialogue.