Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[skyblue888]

The man of Romans 7 is a man who wants to do good. He wills to do good but how to perfom the good that he wills to do he does not know. He chooses to do good and yet he does evil. He is a slave to sin. There are a lot of church-going people who are in this predicament. They do not know how to look and live. They have not yet heard the pure Gospel of the merits of Christ. They have not yet understood that the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in their behalf (S.C.36) in order to receive the blessings of the covenant of grace, the blessings of pardon and peace and light and joy in the Holy Spirit. (5 T 744) This is the gift that brings all other blessings in its train. (A.A.50) The Holy Spirit brings the righteousness of Christ into their life and it is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. (T.M..92,93)

In the book Mount of Blessing, Mrs. White says that these blessings are promised to the "poor in spirit" and she says that the "poor in spirit" are those who know that they cannot possibly save themselves, or of themselves do any righteous action. They are the ones who appreciate the help Christ can bestow. (M.B.7)

On page 19 we read, "If you have a sense of need in your soul, if you hunger and thirst after righteousness, (as the man of Romans 7 does) this is an evidence that Christ has wrought upon your heart, in order that He may be sought unto to do for you through the endowment of the Holy Spirit, those things which it is impossible for you to do for yourself."

On page 73 of the book Faith and Works, we read:

"You cannot have a thought without Christ. You cannot have an inclination to come to Him unless He sets in motion influences and impresses His Spirit upon the human mind. And if there is a man on the face of the earth who has any inclination toward God, it is because of the many influences that are set to work to bear upon his mind and heart. Those influences call for the allegiance to God and an appreciation of the great work that God has done for him. Then don't let us ever say that we can repent of ourselves, and then Christ will pardon. No, indeed. It is the favor of God that pardons. It is the favor of God that leads us to by His power to repentance. Therefore, it is all of Jesus Christ, everything of Him, and you want to just give back glory to God."

sky

[miz3]

Gerry,

I am still waiting for those texts that tell us about the "pristine" place called the will which would establish the "free moral agency" of humanity.

I do not expect some very remote references but something that is clearly evident.

Does it exist in the Bible?

[miz3]

Gerry,

You keep saying that I am confusing choosing with doing something. I have news for you. "Choosing" is in fact doing something.

"Choosing" is not a passive thing. "Choosing" is an active thing. It is an action!!!!

Thus, when you quote John 15:5 that includes the action of "choosing". There are no qualifiers or exclusions in that text. Nothing means just that "Nothing"! No choosing, No doing, No anything without Christ!

No "pristine" place where you the human get to do it apart from anything or anyone else!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

... Paul says: ESV | Ro 5:18 "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

con•demn \kən-ˈdem\ verb transitive

2 a : to pronounce guilty : CONVICT

Let's look at the Greek word. katakrima (Strongs#2631), which is only used three times in the NT. Romans 5: 16, 18, and 8: 1. It means doom, punishment, condemning sentence.

The Greek-English Lexicon by Bauer, Gingrich says, "probably not 'condemnation,' but the punishment following sentence, punishment, doom... there is no doom for those who are in Christ Jesus Rom 8: 1; (led)to punishment or doom for all men Ro. 5: 18" (page 413).

The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, Moulton, Milligan, says, "This word does not mean condemnation, but the punishment following sentence, so that the 'earlier lexicographers' mentioned by Deissmann were right. This not only suits Romans 8: 1 admirably, as Deissmann points out, but it materially helps the exegesis of Romans 5: 16, 18. ... katakrima, the permenant imprisonment for a debt we cannot pay: Matt. 18: 34 paints the picture of this hopeless state," (page 328).

1. I consulted over a dozen translations. All translated it "condemnation" except the NCV which translated it as "punishment of death."

2. I think the use of "condemnation" as a result of ONE trespass is appropriate here to contrast it with "justification" as the result of ONE act of righteousness.

3. 2631. κατάκριμα katákrima; gen. katakrímatos, neut. noun from katakrínō (2632), to condemn. The suffix -ma makes it the result of judgment. A decision against someone, a condemnatory judgment. -Strong's Greek.

4. 56.31 κατακρίνω; κατάκρισις, εως f; κατάκριμα, τος n; καταδικάζω; καταδίκη, ης f: to judge someone as definitely guilty and thus subject to punishment—‘to condemn, to render a verdict of guilt, condemnation.’ Lou-Nida

5. It is not fair of God to render condemnatory punishment without the judgment of guilt first.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

You keep saying that I am confusing choosing with doing something. I have news for you. "Choosing" is in fact doing something.

"Choosing" is not a passive thing. "Choosing" is an active thing. It is an action!!!!

You are correct. Choosing is indeed an act. I should have clarified that I was thinking of the overt act that carries out the decision of the will.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

I am still waiting for those texts that tell us about the "pristine" place called the will which would establish the "free moral agency" of humanity.

I do not expect some very remote references but something that is clearly evident.

Does it exist in the Bible?

Sorry, but the "pristine" condition you speak of was your invention, not mine. The closest I could think of would be A & E un the Garden, and Lucifer in heaven.

[miz3]

Gerry,

What about that "pristine" place. I am still waiting for the Biblical references in regard to that.

condemnation is the death sentence. Let us not split hairs about this in regard to the word punishment. God's Wrath means condemnation and punishment all in one. Romans chapter 5 is talking about humans being punished and condemned to die because of Adam's sin only.

[miz3]

Gerry,

I'm sorry but you are the one who opened the door on the "pristine" place.

I quote:

""Before Christ, only the will is free. After Christ, we are not only free still to choose, but now we are also free to do."

Your phrase "before Christ, only the will is free". That means you envision in the human entity some place that is not touched by sin. If it were touched by sin it would not be free, it would be enslaved to sin.

Thus, I ask again, where in the Bible does it talk about the will being free while the rest of the human entity is in slavery to the sinful nature?

Please explain?

[Woody]

Quote:

Thus, I ask again, where in the Bible does it talk about the will being free while the rest of the human entity is in slavery to the sinful nature?

A worthy question. Interesting point. We ARE in slavery to a sinful nature unless we are IN Christ.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

I'm sorry but you are the one who opened the door on the "pristine" place.

I quote:

""Before Christ, only the will is free. After Christ, we are not only free still to choose, but now we are also free to do."

Your phrase "before Christ, only the will is free". That means you envision in the human entity some place that is not touched by sin. If it were touched by sin it would not be free, it would be enslaved to sin.

Thus, I ask again, where in the Bible does it talk about the will being free while the rest of the human entity is in slavery to the sinful nature?

Please explain?

Oh, now I think I understand. If there is such a "pristine" situation, it would have to be Lucifer, A & E before they sinned. No hormones, no hereditary predispositions, etc.

[LifeHiscost]

I do not expect some very remote references but something that is clearly evident.

Does it exist in the Bible?

" And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. "Matthew 10:7-9 NKJV

One thing is to be sure, if we have received nothing good from God, we are unable to give any good thing. There are some it would seem, that could be in that classification.

" You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

John 8:44 NASB

God blesses!

[miz3]

Gerry,

We are not talking about Lucifer, or A&E before the fall.

We are talking about Humanity after the fall. To be a "free moral agent" and/or to have a "free will" and/or to have "free choice" as a human entity after the fall.

You made the statement:

""Before Christ, only the will is free. After Christ, we are not only free still to choose, but now we are also free to do."

Your phrase "before Christ, only the will is free". That means you envision in the human entity some place that is not touched by sin. If it were touched by sin it would not be free, it would be enslaved to sin.

Thus, I ask again, where in the Bible does it talk about the will being free while the rest of the human entity is in slavery to the sinful nature?

Please explain? Stop evading the question and give me an answer, please.

[Gerr]

Not evading at all. I just did not understand what you were after. I had already answered your question when I quoted Paul:

NAS | Ro 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

The Message is more graphic:

"What I don’t understand about myself is that I decide one way, but then I act another, doing things I absolutely despise. So if I can’t be trusted to figure out what is best for myself and then do it, it becomes obvious that God’s command is necessary.

17–20 But I need something more! For if I know the law but still can’t keep it, and if the power of sin within me keeps sabotaging my best intentions, I obviously need help! I realize that I don’t have what it takes. I can will it, but I can’t do it. I decide to do good, but I don’t really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway. My decisions, such as they are, don’t result in actions. Something has gone wrong deep within me and gets the better of me every time.

21–23 It happens so regularly that it’s predictable. The moment I decide to do good, sin is there to trip me up. I truly delight in God’s commands, but it’s pretty obvious that not all of me joins in that delight. Parts of me covertly rebel, and just when I least expect it, they take charge."

Peterson, E. H. (2002). The Message : The Bible in contemporary language (Ro 7:15–23). Colorado Springs, Colo.: NavPress.

[John317]

Ellen White would never have been viable either given her educational background. On that basis I reject your attempt to make this an argument that can only be settled by the "big bad brains" of those "Greek and Hebrew Scholars".

I wasn't attempting to make this an argument that can only be settled by the "big bad brains" of those "Greek and Hebrew Scholars." You're making unfounded assumptions. I'm using common research tools in the study of the Bible. Such tools are used in the Sabbath School quarterlies and in most books that closely examine the teaching of the Scriptures.

Speaking of Ellen White, here are some of her statements regarding the question of whether people are free to choose. The Bible is very clear, but Ellen White was raised up by God to speak plain English to those who can't understand the Bible, so we are without excuse. If you continue to be "bugged" by the question of whether people are free moral agents, it's isn't because the evidence isn't there.

Here is Ellen White's answer to the question, Is Man a Free Moral Agent?

Quote:

Men and women may escape this doom if they will. It is true that Satan is the great originator of sin; yet this does not excuse any man for sinning; for he cannot force men to do evil. He tempts them to it, and makes sin look enticing and pleasant; but he has to leave it to their own wills whether they will do it or not. He does not force men to become intoxicated, neither does he force them to remain away from religious meetings; but he presents temptations in a manner to allure to evil, and man is a free moral agent to accept or refuse. {2T 294.1}

God placed man under law, as an indispensable condition of his very existence. He was a subject of the divine government, and there can be no government without law. God might have created man without the power to transgress His law; He might have withheld the hand of Adam from touching the forbidden fruit; but in that case man would have been, not a free moral agent, but a mere automaton. Without freedom of choice, his obedience would not have been voluntary, but forced. There could have been no development of character. Such a course would have been contrary to God's plan in dealing with the inhabitants of other worlds. It would have been unworthy of man as an intelligent being, and would have sustained Satan's charge of God's arbitrary rule. {PP 49.1}

As the Supreme Ruler of the universe, God has ordained laws for the government not only of all living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything, whether great or small, animate or inanimate, is under fixed laws which cannot be disregarded. There are no exceptions to this rule; for nothing that the divine hand has made has been forgotten by the divine mind. But while everything in nature is governed by natural law, man alone, as an intelligent being, capable of understanding its requirements, is amenable to moral law. To man alone, the crowning work of His creation, God has given a conscience to realize the sacred claims of the divine law, and a heart capable of loving it as holy, just, and good; and of man prompt and perfect obedience is required. Yet God does not compel him to obey; he is left a free moral agent. {NL 30.1}

Assert Your Liberty

Make it the law of your life from which no temptation or side interest shall cause you to turn, to honor God, because He "so loved the world, that He gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." As a redeemed, free moral agent, ransomed by an infinite price, God calls upon you to assert your liberty, and employ your God-given powers as a free subject of the kingdom of heaven. Be no longer under the thralldom of sin, but as a loyal subject to the King of kings, prove your loyalty to God.

Man a Free Moral Agent.--To stir up rebellion in the fallen race, he [satan] now represented God as unjust in having permitted man to transgress His law. "Why," said the artful tempter, "when God knew what would be the result, did He permit man to be placed on trial, to sin, and bring in misery and death?" ...

421 {2MCP 420.3}

There are thousands today echoing the same rebellious complaint against God. They do not see that to deprive man of the freedom of choice would be to rob him of his prerogative as an intelligent being and make him a mere automaton. It is not God's purpose to coerce the will. Man was created a free moral agent. Like the inhabitants of all other worlds, he must be subjected to the test of obedience; but he is never brought into such a position that yielding to evil becomes a matter of necessity. No temptation or trial is permitted to come to him which he is unable to resist. God made such ample provision that man need never have been defeated in the conflict with Satan.--PP 331, 332 (1890). {2MCP 421.1}

As a redeemed, free moral agent, ransomed by an infinite price, God calls upon you to assert your liberty, and employ your God-given powers as a free subject of the kingdom of heaven. . . . You are to refuse to be in subjection to the power of evil. {FLB 82.6}

Man a Free Moral Agent

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. John 7:17. {FLB 82.1}

Man was created a free moral agent. Like the inhabitants of all other worlds, he must be subjected to the test of obedience; but he is never brought into such a position that yielding to evil becomes a matter of necessity. No temptation or trial is permitted to come to him which he is unable to resist. God made such ample provision that man need never have been defeated in the conflict with Satan. {FLB 82.2}

Satan is the great originator of sin; yet this does not excuse any man for sinning; for he cannot force men to do evil. He tempts them to it, and makes sin look enticing and pleasant; but he has to leave it to their own wills whether they will do it or not. . . . Man is a free moral agent to accept or refuse. {FLB 82.3}

[John317]

Ellen White agrees with the Bible that humans are free moral agents:

Quote:

Joseph was a free moral agent. Good and evil were before him. He could choose the path of purity, holiness, and honor, or the path of immorality and degradation. He chose the right way, and God approved. Samson, under similar temptations, which he had brought upon himself, gave loose rein to passion. The path which he entered upon he found to end in shame, disaster, and death. What a contrast to the history of Joseph! {CC 135.2}

Many are inquiring, "How am I to make the surrender of myself to God?" You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him. {SC 47.1}

Desires for goodness and holiness are right as

48

far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians. {SC 47.2}

Through the right exercise of the will, an entire change may be made in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, you ally yourself with the power that is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from above to hold you steadfast, and thus through constant surrender to God you will be enabled to live the new life, even the life of faith. {SC 48.1}

God might have created man without the power to transgress His law; He might have withheld the hand of Adam from touching the forbidden fruit; but in that case man would have been, not a free moral agent, but a mere automation. Without freedom of choice, his obedience would not have been voluntary, but forced. There could have been no development of character. . . . It would have been unworthy of man as an intelligent being, and would have sustained Satan's charge of God's arbitrary rule. {CC 13.3}

God made man upright; He gave him noble traits of character, with no bias toward evil. He endowed him with high intellectual powers, and presented before him the strongest possible inducements to be true to his allegiance. Obedience, perfect and perpetual, was the condition of eternal happiness. On this condition he was to have access to the tree of life. . . . {CC 13.4}

The law of love is the foundation of God's government, and the service of love the only service acceptable to heaven. God has granted freedom of will to all, endowed men with capacity to appreciate his character, and therefore with ability to love him and to choose his service. So long as created beings worshiped God they were in harmony throughout the universe. While love to God was supreme, love to others abounded. As there was no transgression of the law, which is the transcript of God's character, no note of discord jarred the celestial harmonies. {ST, February 13, 1893 par. 1}

Today angels are sent to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation, to help them to escape from the thralldom of Satan's power. . . . Each human being is given the freedom of choice. It is his to decide whether he will stand under the black banner of rebellion or under the blood-stained banner of Prince Emmanuel. With deep solicitude Heaven watches the conflict between good and evil. None but the obedient can enter the gates of the city of God. Upon those who choose to continue in transgression the death sentence must at last be pronounced. The earth will be purified from their misdoings, their defiance of God. . . . {HP 361.4}

[John317]

1. I consulted over a dozen translations. All translated it "condemnation" except the NCV which translated it as "punishment of death."

I have about 15 translations that render it in a way that is similar to the NCV. One of these is the translation of James Moffatt, a highly regarded translator:

"Well then, as one man's trespass issued in doom for all..."

Conybeare: "Therefore, as the fruit of one offence reached to all men, and brought upon them condemnation..."

The Berkeley Version: "To conclude then: As the one fall affected all men for their condemnation..."

The Epistles of Paul (George Barker Stevens): : "So then-- as we began to say--- as by Adam's sin all became involved in death..."

The Messge: "Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death..."

You'll notice also that my own translation uses the word "condemnation," so I am not saying that it is incorrect.

There's nothing wrong with the translation of "condemnation" in Romans 5: 16, 18, and Romans 8: 1. The only problem is if we misunderstand Paul's use of it. The NCV actually does a good job of translating it.

As the Greek Lexicons tell us, the word katakrima doesn't signify a guilty verdict against all human beings. It simply means that Adam was guilty of transgression and that God gave him the sentence of death. All men die as a result of that sentence, but not because we inherit Adam's guilt. Proponents of Original Sin believe that we inherit the guilt of Adam.

However, we're not held responsible or accountable for what Adam did. No one but Adam will render an account to God for what Adam did. We are merely reaping the consequences of Adam's choice, but we are not being "punished" for what he did. It is like the child that reaps the consequences of his mother's drug or alcohol or AIDS problem, but no one would say that the baby is being "punished" for the mother's wrongs.

He is certainly suffering for his mother's sins but not being punished by God or man. I doubt anyone could honestly say that mankind deserves to suffer or be punished for what Adam did, any more than a baby deserves to be punished or held guilty for what its mother did. It would be a mistake to so understand the use of Katakrima in Romans 5: 16, 18 or 8: 1.

[Sonny]

BC- FW

-TI- Faith and Works

-CN- 11

-CT- Obedience and Sanctification

-PR- 03

-PG- 88

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences....

[miz3]

John317,

We have yet to establish from the Bible that humans are "free moral agents".

Speaking of the that marvelous woman Ellen G. White, I did not bring her up to use her as an instrument to "TRUMP" the Bible and close the deal. This is a typical tactic used by those who cannot make their point from the Bible. Once a person sees that their point in Bible is losing or lost the quip, "Well Ellen White says, ,,,,,,,,". This use by SDA individuals I find abhorrent. In general SDA's have used Ellen White to settle all their squabbles. This is why my original question limited the discussion to the Bible and the Bible only.

If we are truly honest with ourselves we will indeed realize that we have erroneously and shamefully used God's instrument (Ellen White) as a "trump" card and have indeed elevated her to "final arbiter" status even over the Bible. The Mormon Church is very open and honest with their "prophet" which they indeed contend "trumps" Scripture.

Again, you have NOT demonstrated even in the least little scintilla from Scripture that humans are "free moral agents".

Now I have some urgent appointment that will keep me away for sometime. I, however, will be back to this discussion later today when my business is done. I look forward to more talk on this important topic.

[doug yowell]

Gerry,

We are not talking about Lucifer, or A&E before the fall.

We are talking about Humanity after the fall. To be a "free moral agent" and/or to have a "free will" and/or to have "free choice" as a human entity after the fall.

Part of the problem here,Miz, is that you keep throwing in other comments and conclusions that contradict what you actually say (or mean)in other places. Compare your statement here with what you said in your last paragraph on page 5 of this thread. Biblical evidence clearly shows that sin can result in free moral agents without the pre-existing sinful infection that you say causes the loss of free moral agency. If you want to argue that it cannot exist in a sinful world then that would keep the focus on the question of whether or not that assessment alone is true. But at least the nature of sin and it's ability to be chosen by a free moral agent under pristine conditions is demonstrated in the stories of Adam and Eve.

[Gerr]

John317,

We have yet to establish from the Bible that humans are "free moral agents".

You've got to be joking? Here it is again:

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, [TWO DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED CHOICES]

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Dt 30:19). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” [TWO DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED CHOICES]

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Jos 24:15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. [TWO DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED CHOICES]

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Heb 11:24–25). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

7 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely

[TWO DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED CHOICES]

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009 (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.) (Re 22:17). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Have YOU established FROM the Bible that we are not free moral agents?

IF WE ARE NOT FREE MORAL AGENTS, WHY DO SOME SOME DO RIGHT AND MANY DO WRONG? WHY SOME GO TO HEAVEN AND MANY GO TO HELL?

[skyblue888]

miz3, the statements John317 just shared from Mrs. White have their place but only in the context of the man who has been restored to primitive faith and godliness. If you take the time to read them carefully, this is what she is talking about, to be sure. When Adam was created He was created in Christ Jesus a free moral agent. But after the fall, he was no longer a free moral agent for he became a slave to Satan, a slave to his own sinful nature. Everyone should recognize this.

In Romans 7 we find a fallen man who who has been convicted by the grace of the Holy Spirit of his sinful nature, of his utterly helpless condition. It is a Sinai experience, if you will. That man wills to obey the law which is holy and just and good but he fails every time. All his promises to obey after each fall are like ropes of sand. No matter how much that man wills to do good he always ends up doing evil even against his own will. The Holy Spirit has done His work in convincing him that of himself he cannot get himself out of the pit of sin in which he has sunken. It is by the grace of the Holy Spirit that he is urged to cry out, Who shall deliver me from this spiritual death? Then the Holy Spirit draws him to the Saviour. "Those whose hearts have been moved by the convicting Spirit of God see that there is nothing good in themselves. They see that all they have ever done is mingled with self and sin. Like the poor publican, they stand afer off, not daring to lift up so much as their eyes to heaven, and cry, 'God, be merciful to me the sinner.' And they are blessed. There is forgiveness for the penitent." M.B.7,8.

By the grace of the Holy Spirit they are led to look to Jesus and to accept His merits which it is their privilege to claim and they are greatly blessed. "We see in the midst of the throne One bearing in hands and feet and side the marks of the suffering endured to reconcile man to God. We see a Father, infinite, dwelling in light unapprochable, yet receiving us to Himself through the merits of His Son. The cloud of vengeance that threatened only misery and despair, in the light reflected from the cross reveals the writing of God: Live, sinner, live! ye penitent, believing souls, live! I have paid a ransom." A.A.333.

So, of ourselves we cannot even have an inclination toward God. Everything is from God through Christ by the Holy Spirit. Those influences call for the allegiance to God and an appreciation of the great work that God has done for us.

Unless the sinner, through the influence of the Holy Spirit, makes it his lifebusiness to look to Jesus and to accept His merits which it is his privilege to claim, He can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus. See Testimonies to Ministers, p.93.

To be saved is to be emptied of self and the vacuum filled with the graces of the Holy Spirit. Thus the will of man is united with the will of God which is omnipotent.

"The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ." D.A.466.

sky

[Gerr]

And if humans are not free moral agents, what are they?

[phkrause]

And if humans are not free moral agents, what are they?

That would be robots Gerry! What else could they be? If we are not free moral agents to make our own choice's than we are just robots, plain and simple.

[Gerr]

Or beasts.

[skyblue888]

pkrause, Gerry, the experience described in Romans 7 shows a man who is intellectually converted to the law of God and who is choosing to do right but quickly finds out that choosing to do right is not enough. That man has good intentions and makes strong resolutions to do what he knows to be rigth and yet time and time again he is confronted with the fact that good intentions and strong resolutions are not enough.

"Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless." S.C.18.

How can a man be said to be a free moral agent if education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, are all powerless in his search for moral freedom?

"It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. 'Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." S.C.18.

The only sense in which it can be said a man is a "free moral agent" is if he chooses to consent for Christ to do for him that which it is not in his power to do for himself.

Right?

sky