"I haven't always been an Adventist, I used to have fun"

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Of course we don't know how it DID happen

"In the beginning God created...."

Genesis 1:1 NLT

"The fool has said in his heart,“There is no God.” ...There is none who does good."Psalm 14:2 NKJV

God blesses!

Claiming to have absolute knowledge doesn't make it true!

[LifeHiscost]

Adventists always resort to attacking abiogenesis since it's one of the harder aspects of a naturalistic worldview to defend."

The greatest evidence there is a God of Divine love is that His followers believe that He loves you and He desires them to allow His love for them to overflow into your life, that you might at last live in eternity as a result of that effort to save you from yourself, even as they were saved from their worst enemy, themselves.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave..."John 3:16 KJV

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."Hebrews 11:6 NKJV

God blesses!

[Gerr]

I bought several textbooks on new and old-testament scholarship that are used at seminaries. One is written by an agnostic, one is Catholic, and one is from Moody. I feel that this is a better approach than simply buying a Bible dictionary as you seem to have done (correct me if I'm wrong), since it doesn't provide a deep understanding of the original connotations and usage patters. Reading summaries of scholarship via textbooks from multiple sources with opposing biases feels much more practical and effective.

That is very commendable. Just this caveat: If you spend too much time reading what the theologians say about the Bible, or their interpretations of the Bible, you are likely to be misled, I believe. 1) Too many modern theologians don't even believe that the Bible is God's word, 2) Too many of them are ignorant of what it says. They spend more time reading other men's works. From what I've read, too many ministers can't even recite the 10 commandments. Using a translation with an interlinear will give you access to the words of the original languages, giving you the different shades of meaning. Also, claim this promise:

ESV | Je 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

[Dr. Rich]

Gerry, I have a hunch you are right.

[onlyhumanme]

There is nothing wrong with searching for the answers and every question has its place as accepting what the church as a whole believes can lead not to unity but sometimes complacency.

But between finding the answers you need Faith for when you accept some light comes greater light but pride does hold us back at times..

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree; boast not against the branches. But if you boast , remember you bear not the root, but the root bears you. You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in! Well.. because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith as they should of. Be not high-minded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not you ... And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in again: for God is able to graft them in again". Romans 11:17-23.

have a great sabbath friends! :)

[Dr. Rich]

onlyhumanme, please notice the difference between Romans 11:17-24 with John 15:4-11. Hmmmm? I choose to beleve in what Jesus said. After all, when Paul said that ALL of Israel will be saved (Rom.11:26) I know he lied just as he did in verses 17-24. But then it is your own choice.

[Igakusei]

onlyhumanme, please notice the difference between Romans 11:17-24 with John 15:4-11. Hmmmm? I choose to beleve in what Jesus said. After all, when Paul said that ALL of Israel will be saved (Rom.11:26) I know he lied just as he did in verses 17-24. But then it is your own choice.

Maybe he wasn't lying, maybe he was just giving his opinion. What if Paul and the author of John had different theological views?

[ClubV12]

"Maybe he wasn't lying, maybe he was just giving his opinion. What if Paul and the author of John had different theological views?"

They likely DID have some conflicting views on specific points of theological doctrine! History reveals that has always been the case. In the early Adventist faith and it remains so today. People don't always agree 100% on the details, and that doesn't mean EITHER of them are wrong, they can both be right.

As to what Paul says, you would need to do further comparison and study to arrive at what he meant when he said "all of Israel". The scriptures themself explain the scriptures. One thing you take to the bank, no bible author was "lying". If it appears so, then clearly, you don't understand the verse in question.

[phkrause]

Maybe he wasn't lying, maybe he was just giving his opinion. What if Paul and the author of John had different theological views?

A very good point Igakusei. I don't believe he was lying either, but neither do I believe it was his opinion, apart from Christ. What I would suggest is to read the passage's for yourself, but in context with the passage's before and after. From my reading they are not that different, maybe not said the same but definitely pretty much the same.

[Gerr]

onlyhumanme, please notice the difference between Romans 11:17-24 with John 15:4-11. Hmmmm? I choose to beleve in what Jesus said. After all, when Paul said that ALL of Israel will be saved (Rom.11:26) I know he lied just as he did in verses 17-24. But then it is your own choice.

Only a superficial reading of Paul would lead one to such a conclusion. In Rom 9:27 he already unequivocably stated, ESV | Ro 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, Paul can't be so dumb as to claim this and two chapters later reverses himself and become a universalist. Paul cannot really believe that ALL Israel will be saved for the following reasons:

1. Nowhere does Paul teach of a second chance for the dead. If Paul authored the book of Hebrews as many believe, it is stated there the most of the generation that left Egypt were lost. If they were lost then, no way they could be saved at any later time unless, (a) you believe in purgatory, ( believe in universalism.

2. Paul teaches soul sleep, i.e. when a person dies, he remains unconscious in the grave until the resurrection.

So then, what did Paul mean in 11:26 ? I do not pretend to be a Greek scholar, but having an interlinear helps. The Greek says: "kai houtous pas Israel sosthesetai". I believe the ESV, NCV, & GNT have it right when they rendered it thus:

ESV | Ro 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved,

NCV:  And that is how all Israel will be saved

GNT: And this is how all Israel will be saved

The Greek houtous, according Strong's mean: 3779. οὕτω hoútō; demonstrative adv. from hoútos (3778), this one. In this manner, on this wise, thus,

Zodhiates, S. (2000). The complete word study dictionary : New Testament (electronic ed.). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

And Lou-Nida: Louw Nida 61.9 61.9 οὕτωςa or οὕτω (a rarely occurring variant): with reference to that which precedes—‘so, thus, in this way.’ καὶ διδάξῃ οὕτως τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ‘and teaches men thus’ Mt 5:19; οὕτως οὖν καὶ ἐν τῷ νῦν καιρῷ λεῖμμα κατ̓ ἐκλογὴν χάριτος γέγονεν ‘and so it is then, even at the present time, there is a number left of those who have been chosen because of (God’s) grace’ Ro 11:5; ἐὰν ἀφῶμεν αὐτὸν οὕτως ‘if we let him do thus’ (that is, in accordance with what he had been doing, namely, performing various miracles) Jn 11:48; οὕτω σε δεῖ καὶ εἰς Ρώμην μαρτυρῆσαι ‘in this way you must also witness in Rome’ Ac 23:11.

IN WHAT WAY, OR HOW would ALL or ANY Israelite be saved? You would have to go to the preceding verses to find out why. He makes it clear in what way or how. In 11:17-23 Paul says: ESV | ESV | Ro 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again." IOW, Gentiles are saved having faith in Jesus. In the same, any Israelite, nay, ALL Israelites that will be saved are saved IN THE SAME WAY as the Gentiles - by having faith in Jesus.

[onlyhumanme]

nice Gerry,The message was to the new christians who some had become proud in their position against the old christains the jews who had left the light.

But being in the wrong church or holding wrong beliefs like paul did does not cut you off only by not believeing in christ the man and the rejection of the holy spirit will do that.

"The children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, ... Afterward shall the children of Israel return and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear(respect) the LORD and His goodness in the latter days". Hosea 3:4-5. Paul knew this promise and did write accordingly.

Its also about being humble and not saying to your neibour i keep the law so i am good but instead I die the law lives in me for in me was no good so let him without sin cast the first stone.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

onlyhumanme, please notice the difference between Romans 11:17-24 with John 15:4-11. Hmmmm? I choose to beleve in what Jesus said. After all, when Paul said that ALL of Israel will be saved (Rom.11:26) I know he lied just as he did in verses 17-24. But then it is your own choice.

Only a superficial reading of Paul would lead one to such a conclusion. In Rom 9:27 he already unequivocably stated, ESV | Ro 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, Paul can't be so dumb as to claim this and two chapters later reverses himself and become a universalist. Paul cannot really believe that ALL Israel will be saved for the following reasons:

1. Nowhere does Paul teach of a second chance for the dead. If Paul authored the book of Hebrews as many believe, it is stated there the most of the generation that left Egypt were lost. If they were lost then, no way they could be saved at any later time unless, (a) you believe in purgatory, ( believe in universalism.

2. Paul teaches soul sleep, i.e. when a person dies, he remains unconscious in the grave until the resurrection.

So then, what did Paul mean in 11:26 ? I do not pretend to be a Greek scholar, but having an interlinear helps. The Greek says: "kai houtous pas Israel sosthesetai". I believe the ESV, NCV, & GNT have it right when they rendered it thus:

ESV | Ro 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved,

NCV:  And that is how all Israel will be saved

GNT: And this is how all Israel will be saved

The Greek houtous, according Strong's mean: 3779. οὕτω hoútō; demonstrative adv. from hoútos (3778), this one. In this manner, on this wise, thus,

Zodhiates, S. (2000). The complete word study dictionary : New Testament (electronic ed.). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

And Lou-Nida: Louw Nida 61.9 61.9 οὕτωςa or οὕτω (a rarely occurring variant): with reference to that which precedes—‘so, thus, in this way.’ καὶ διδάξῃ οὕτως τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ‘and teaches men thus’ Mt 5:19; οὕτως οὖν καὶ ἐν τῷ νῦν καιρῷ λεῖμμα κατ̓ ἐκλογὴν χάριτος γέγονεν ‘and so it is then, even at the present time, there is a number left of those who have been chosen because of (God’s) grace’ Ro 11:5; ἐὰν ἀφῶμεν αὐτὸν οὕτως ‘if we let him do thus’ (that is, in accordance with what he had been doing, namely, performing various miracles) Jn 11:48; οὕτω σε δεῖ καὶ εἰς Ρώμην μαρτυρῆσαι ‘in this way you must also witness in Rome’ Ac 23:11.

IN WHAT WAY, OR HOW would ALL or ANY Israelite be saved? You would have to go to the preceding verses to find out why. He makes it clear in what way or how. In 11:17-23 Paul says: ESV | ESV | Ro 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again." IOW, Gentiles are saved having faith in Jesus. In the same, any Israelite, nay, ALL Israelites that will be saved are saved IN THE SAME WAY as the Gentiles - by having faith in Jesus.

[Dr. Rich]

igak...., there is a big difference between John's writings and Paul's. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would cause Jesus' disciples to REMEMBER everything He said (John 14:26) and that those who read the words from His eyewitnesses could be blessed (John 17:17-20). The only thing that Jesus said about Paul's gospel can be found in Matthew 24:5,11,24 and Rev. 2:2.

PK, as I wrote earlier, I could argue both ways on Paul's words and that is what makes them so confusing. I think we all can agree that the majority of people who call themselves a Christian have a different opinion of doctrine than the Adventists. Why?

And didn't Paul say something about the living being baptized for the dead? He never said this was not the right thing to do, did he? (1Cor.15:29) This evidence tends to show that Paul thought the dead could be saved by the living being baptized for them as the Mormons believe.

Matthew 21:18-19 and 43 is evidence that the Jews/Israel ceased to be the chosen Kingdom of God that it once was.

Ask a universalist why they believe the way they do and you will then understand where they get their confusion from. Go ahead and try it--I did.

[John317]

And didn't Paul say something about the living being baptized for the dead? He never said this was not the right thing to do, did he? (1Cor.15:29) This evidence tends to show that Paul thought the dead could be saved by the living being baptized for them as the Mormons believe.

No, Paul did not teach this. We have been over this many times before. Paul taught that the dead sleep in their graves until Christ returns. Paul's whole point in 1 Cor. 15: 29-- as usually translated--- is that people look forward to seeing their loved ones after this life. He's saying that this is proof that these people believe in a resurrection. Paul's point is not that this is a wrong practice but that it wouldn't happen if they didn't believe that the dead are raised.

However, having said this, it's important to note that the preposition, huper, may also be translated as "in view of," or "with respect to." Therefore, it is possible to translate the verse as saying that people are being baptized on account of their desire to meet their beloved dead. See, for instance, the Concordant Literal Translation.

A final point is that if Paul believed the dead have a second chance to be saved, or that the dead go to their reward immediately after death, and are now conscious, Paul could not have written 1 Cor. 15: 17, 18. There he writes that the resurrection of the body is the only hope anyone has for life after death or for a life with God.

1 Cor. 15:17-18

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. [18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

1 Thess. 4: 17 also proves that Paul taught that the way we go to be with the Lord is through the resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Christ. Paul says, "this is the way we will always be with the Lord." What way? By the resurrection as described in verses 13 to 17.

[Gerr]

Ask a universalist why they believe the way they do and you will then understand where they get their confusion from. Go ahead and try it--I did.

Like I said, the problem with understanding Paul is when one reads his writings superficially. But even Peter said that Paul is sometimes difficult to understand. However, when one digs into what he really says, as in the foregoing question/seeming contradiction, there really is no confusion.

[Dr. Rich]

I can dig that PK! And yes, I have dug it and have found the same thing as millions of others have found, that Paul says one thing and then says something like "May it never be". Do you see ANY confusion in the words of Jesus Christ given to us by His eyewitnesses? Huh? I don't. This is why it is so important to follow only the words of Jesus IF you want the truth and to have unity with Christ.

You (PK, Richard and John317) are not like most other christians who refuse to obey all of the ten commandments because of the mistaken belief (from Paul's words) that the law has been done away with and we are all going to be saved by grace anyway. But why you guys complain that the words of Jesus are not enough for a complete understanding of how salvation works, is beyond me???

[John317]

... I have dug it and have found the same thing as millions of others have found, that Paul says one thing and then says something like "May it never be".

Romans 3:31

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Romans 3:3-6

What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? [4] By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,

"That you may be justified in your words,

and prevail when you are judged."

[5] But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) [6] By no means! For then how could God judge the world?

Romans 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? [2] By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:15

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Romans 7:7

What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

Does Paul anywhere teach that we should continue to sin so that God's grace may abound? No. But he had heard of some people who accused him of saying this.

Does Paul anywhere teach that we are to go on sinning because we are under grace? Again, no, he does not.

Does Paul anywhere teach that law is sin? Of course not.

Do you actually find Paul confusing in those verses?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Do you see ANY confusion in the words of Jesus Christ given to us by His eyewitnesses? Huh? I don't.

There are many people who are confused by some of Jesus' words. That is not Jesus' fault, and neither is it Paul's fault.

You are confused if you believe Jesus meant to show us that we can earn righteousness and salvation by obedience to law.

Again, you are confused by Jesus' words if you think Jesus meant for us to believe that faith is not an essential part of being His disciple.

There are people, also, who are confused by some of the things He said in His sermon on the mount. Others are confused by Jesus' words at the last supper when he said, "This is my body." Still others are confused about what Jesus said in Matt. 24.

People can be confused by language for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons is that they may be resisting the truth for any number of reasons. As the Bible says, the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, and who can know it? Jer. 17: 9.

[LifeHiscost]

Do you see ANY confusion in the words of Jesus Christ given to us by His eyewitnesses? This is why it is so important to follow only the words of Jesus IF you want the truth and to have unity with Christ.

But why you guys complain that the words of Jesus are not enough for a complete understanding of how salvation works, is beyond me???

Well, since Paul was an eyewitness,

"This boasting will do no good, but I must go on. I will reluctantly tell about visions and revelations from the Lord. I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know—only God knows. Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell.

That experience is worth boasting about, but I’m not going to do it. I will boast only about my weaknesses. If I wanted to boast, I would be no fool in doing so, because I would be telling the truth. But I won’t do it, because I don’t want anyone to give me credit beyond what they can see in my life or hear in my message, even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud."

2 Corinthians 12:1-7 NLT

then I guess that would allow us also to believe the Revelation.

"This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John, who faithfully reported everything he saw. This is his report of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near."Rev 1:1-3 NLT

"Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”"John 20:29 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

ESV | Ro 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved,

NCV: And that is how all Israel will be saved

GNT: And this is how all Israel will be saved

I'm satisfied, "all Israel" being saved is as a result of the reality of these verses.

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly,....but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Romans 2:28,29 NKJV

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."Gal 3:29 KJV

With those two texts proven to be true, not one who has the heart of Jesus will be excluded from the Kingdom of Heaven, including that heart which resides in some who have never heard His name nor met a follower of Christ.

"This message was kept secret for centuries and generations past, but now it has been revealed to God’s people. For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: Christ lives in you. This gives you assurance of sharing his glory."Colossians 1:26-28 NLT

God blesses!

[Guest]

Hi LHC, always good to see you.

I tend to shy away from the NLT. It is just another paraphrase, which are no good for serious study. Even though it was marketed as NOT being a paraphrase.

If you need documentation for this, I can supply it.

[Dr. Rich]

John317 wrote: "You are confused if you believe Jesus meant to show us that we can earn righteousness and salvation by obedience to law."

WHAT? Have you ever read the Ten Commandments? Duh? You can't become righteous without keeping all of the ten commandments. And you have to become righteous IF you do keep all of them--that is what it is all about John! Yes, Salvation has been promised us IF we obey God (and the testimony of Jesus). If you don't understand this that is your own choice.

The last words of Jesus found in Rev. 22 prove that what we do or not do we all be rewarded for our deeds. Is not being rewarded the same thing as earning what we get?

And John, you don't have to write what Paul wrote as I have many copies of the bible and can read just fine the very same thing. Please don't twist what I clearly said. And I am not the only one to find the confusion of Paul's words, as the book stores are now filled with others who have done the same thing.

[LifeHiscost]

Hi LHC, always good to see you.

I tend to shy away from the NLT. It is just another paraphrase, which are no good for serious study. Even though it was marketed as NOT being a paraphrase.

Hi Richard.

I'm of the belief that time and effort have made man's capacity to grow in linguistic expertise, more perceptive, especially when the Holy Spirit is making every effort He can to open men's minds in these last days, to meet Jesus in peace.

And that's why I always compare it with others more acceptable and only reject it if it speaks inconsistently with others known to be themselves without lack in discernment.

God blesses!

[John317]

You are confused if you believe Jesus meant to show us that we can earn righteousness and salvation by obedience to law.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

WHAT? Have you ever read the Ten Commandments? Duh?

Yes, I memorized the Ten Commandments when I was in second grade.

But where does it say in the Ten Commandments-- or anywhere else for that matter--- that God gave those commandments in order for people to earn salvation? Is that why God gave them?

Didn't God rescue the people from slavery BEFORE He gave them the law?

In order to keep the law for the purpose of earning righteousness and salvation, you would need to keep all of it perfectly all of your life, both in thought and action. If you've sinned, you need God's mercy and forgiveness and the atonement.

[John317]

The last words of Jesus found in Rev. 22 prove that what we do or not do we all be rewarded for our deeds. Is not being rewarded the same thing as earning what we get?

Rev. 22:12

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

Rev. 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The above verses don't tell us that we earn salvation by our obedience to the law. If you are looking at it that way, you are confused.

The following verses put the law of God and it s relationship to salvation in its correct perspective:

John 15:4

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

John 15:10

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

John 14:15

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 14:21

Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.

1 John 1:8-10

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1-6

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [2] He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, [5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: [6] whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

John 1:12-13

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:16-17

And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

[onlyhumanme]

Great debate on pauls message, Hmmm well lets look at someone that was associated with the law and someone associated with a New heart Moses vs Elijah both had the opportunity to walk off the planet for the lord God did contest for the body of moses and could not bring him under the dominion of death but ultimatly at the last moment Moses turned the offer down..So if we understand that you do not have to die the first death what interpretation should we now have in regards to certain scriptures.

Your reward is your friends in heaven and your personal story of redemtion there is no prize giving infact the more you know the more you will be the servent in heaven to the others who choose christ with the light that light every man but new not much of his biblical accounts.

If there is someone that looks like hes recruiting everyone he has no more reward than you for all will be happy with there measure and it is the spirit who calls a worker and it uses who it will at their acceptance.

The principle of keeping the Law had fallen when jesus came that why he gave the extra two commandments but they wernt extra they were the principles for understanding the original 10 ,

how much more should we check our sda church as nothing is new under the sun and from elijah to john the baptist to our present truth we might find eventual apostasy in our own church system. (not individuals as every question and discussion is perfect!)

hehe sorry if what i wrote is basic i havent been going to church long just trying to figure it out like everybody else.peace