"I haven't always been an Adventist, I used to have fun"

[Dr. Rich]

John 317 wrote: "But where does it say in the Ten Commandments-- or anywhere else for that matter--- that God gave those commandments in order for people to earn salvation? Is that why God gave them?"

Ex. 20:6 "But showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who LOVE ME AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".

John 14:23-24 "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, bu athe Father's who sent Me.

John317, one must first LOVE Jesus/God before one can become saved. Obeying the commandments means that you first MUST love God. If you don't obey, then you don't love God. Simple! There is NOTHING that Jesus said anything about being saved by grace or righteousness by faith.

[Gerr]

There is NOTHING that Jesus said anything about being saved by grace or righteousness by faith.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Jn 3:16). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

[Woody]

Yep Gerry. Pretty basic stuff ain't it?

[phkrause]

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Jn 3:16). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

[Guest truthseeker007]

LifeHistCost, i don t like your response to my comment. You are implying that i think that keeping the ten commandments equates legalism. The ten commandments together with the testimony of Jesus should be the foundation of a Christian life. I was only talking about the sabbath. I think people who keep the sabbath by doing nothing and feeling miserable are missing the point. The sabbath is a moment of joy and spiritual awareness that we are created beings who have the honour to serve an awesome God. It is not a burden like the pharisees taught. That was all i tried to say.

Does any of you also feel the spirit of God is more present at sabbath time? Every sabbath i feel a calm come over me, and i feel much more peacefull than during other days. Is it just me?i don t think it is placebo effect or anything.

Anyways in the discussion of being saved, i wanted to say that, we are saved through grace by faith. Faith will manifest itself by keeping the commandments of God. It is the fruit of a repentant heart who walks together with the Holy Spirit of God. That s why Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my commandments. I don t think Jesus meant to say "keep my commandments or you won t be saved". I think he meant to say that we will recognise those who love Jesus, because those people will manifest the fruits of the holy spirit, which is reflected by keeping the commandments of God. It is very discouraging for newborn Christians to keep telling them all their efforts are useless if they don t keep the commandments perfectly. However the law should be taught and kept, but it is through grace we are saved, not by keeping the law.

[Dr. Rich]

Gerry and others, believe it or not, John 3:16 does NOT say that anyone will be saved by grace nor does it say that that God gave His Son to die for anyone's sin! Neither does it say anything about righteousness by faith!

What John 3 is all about is that God sent His Son to this world to testify to the truth so that anyone who HEARS (understands) the words/testimony of Jesus and obeys, MAY have eternal life! There is NOTHING in John 3 that says anything about dying for anyone!

Although it is true that Jesus' death did pay the penalty for Adam's sin and made it possible for those who obey Jesus' words and commandments to also have their sins paid for. Rev. 5:9-10 is clear that Jesus' paid the penalty for THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN only! If you want to be in the Kingdom of Heaven you MUST first become righteous by obeying God.

Of course it is your choice to believe in the testimony of Jesus or not.

[Guest]

Rich, you take so many things on faith, that you don't even realize the extent of it. I saw the other day, where a guy worked it out, and proved that even math is a matter of faith. The one thing everybody thought was absolute. I can't explain it right now, but it's true.

I see you say things everyday, that the only way you could possibly believe, is by faith. Because there is no way to prove them. Most of your beliefs, (and everybody else's) are held by faith, and faith alone. So for you to say you don't need faith, is ludicrous, and a lie.

If you believe that Jesus is the son of God, then you have faith. Because there is no way you can prove it. Nobody can, and nobody ever has. I have put this to you before, but evidently you are so thickheaded, that you don't even understand what I'm saying. Because the answers you give, don't even come close to proving anything.

Giving a reason why you believe something, is not the same as proving it. You can give all the reasons, and what you view as evidence why you believe Jesus is the son of God, and I would probably say: "Those are good reasons" but you still can't prove it. It takes faith. Something you have plenty of, and use everyday as you tell people they don't need faith.

[Gerr]

Gerry and others, believe it or not, John 3:16 does NOT say that anyone will be saved by grace nor does it say that that God gave His Son to die for anyone's sin!

Huh? Well, does Jn 3:16 say we gain eternal life by working for it? Do you know what kind of righteousness the law requires?

[fccool]

Quote:

Giving a reason why you believe something, is not the same as proving it. You can give all the reasons, and what you view as evidence why you believe Jesus is the son of God, and I would probably say: "Those are good reasons" but you still can't prove it. It takes faith. Something you have plenty of, and use everyday as you tell people they don't need faith.

hmmm... 2+2=4 is not a reason, it's obvious proof. There are plenty of those that we live by. People ask for proofs all the time. We are not simply living on a whim.

If someone walked over and asks you to worship Thor, for example... they can't prove that Thor exists. You can't prove that he does not. Proving or disproving is not a reason for religious belief. It's more about discipline and consecration than ontological reality that can be grasped or sensed.

It's a personal decision . I would not call someone thickheaded because they have reasons not to believe in Thor. There's no evidence that Thor exists in spite of abundant mythology surrounding the character.

Likewise, we are in the day and age when the downfall of certain nation is not blamed on god's curse. Likewise, we simply don't observe miracles recorded in the Bible. Why is it so difficult to see why someone may be questioning Christian faith?

There are people who prefer facts over faith... would God punish them for that?

[John317]

Believing in Christ as the Son of God is the same thing as putting one's faith in Him. It is the same word and same concept. It means putting one's absolute reliance in Him, in much the same way that a person puts his total reliance on a chair when he sits down on it. Better yet, it's like a patient putting his life in the hands of his heart surgeon.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, we have been down this trail before my friend. Satan believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but what good will that do him? It's not the belief that Jesus is the Son of God as Jesus even warned His own disciples not to be deceived by people who would say that Jesus is the Christ. (Matt. 24:5) Therefore the simple belief that Jesus is the Christ is not what John 3:16 is about. It is about obeying what Jesus said that counts. When you obey then you show you love God and your belief is real.

As for having fun, people who know me also know that I believe in having fun ALL the time! When Sabbath comes, then the real fun starts! Showing you love God by obeying is tons of fun for some of us!

And Richard, John 14:26 is where Jesus told ONLY His disciples that the Holy Spirit would cause them to remember every word He said. One can't remember if they never heard it in the first place. Now that is a FACT that IT is found in the words of Jesus because John was an eyewitness.

And John 17:20 is where Jesus prayed for those who read the words of the eyewitnesses and believe in those words and obey. That is a fact too. The fact is that those words are there for everyone to read. What you do with them is your business. These facts are evidence for why I believe that the words of Jesus trump everything else in the NT.

And reading those words over and over I have never found any place where Jesus ever said that He came to die for anyone's sin. I have yet to find where Jesus said that someone can be saved by grace or that righteousness is by faith. In fact, I don't see where Jesus ever talked about a "New Covenant" as the only place you will find this is in Luke's and Paul's words--other than the KJV having Matthew say this--but it can't be found in other translations.

[Overaged]

Believing in Christ as the Son of God is the same thing as putting one's faith in Him. It is the same word and same concept. It means putting one's absolute reliance in Him, in much the same way that a person puts his total reliance on a chair when he sits down on it. Better yet, it's like a patient putting his life in the hands of his heart surgeon.

Belief and trust are two different things

[Overaged]

After the sermon I decided I had to give up racing. It wasn't easy, I cried my eyes out (which is tough for a manly man with a race car). I determined to not only give it up but to not be like Lot's wife, looking back and longing for it.

There is one thing I just cannot get around, or over, or under. It's this great long list, (and ever-growing list) of things to do or not to do on the Sabbath. It's enough to drive me nuts.

[Overaged]

There is NOTHING in John 3 that says anything about dying for anyone!

Although it is true that Jesus' death did pay the penalty for Adam's sin and made it possible for those who obey Jesus' words and commandments to also have their sins paid for. Rev. 5:9-10 is clear that Jesus' paid the penalty for THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN only!

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Just as we see how you wrested Rev 5:9-10; it is easy for even an elementary grade student to see that Jesus died for OUR sins.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

According to John 3:16, God GAVE JESUS to the whole WORLD!

[ClubV12]

Let every man be convinced in his own heart. But trust me on this one Overaged, you can add "no racing your car in a sanctioned competition event on the sabbath", to the list.

Man, do you know how much WORK it is to get the car loaded? The tools? The extra tires? The setup in the garage or the pitts? Where to drop the trailor? Where to park the truck? Where to park the pitt crew? How we doing lunch? Rolling around the tool boxes, the air compressor, the chairs and tables? The million little details calling for your attention? The adrenalin factor? The amount of "Red Bull" required to get through the day? It's one hectic intense day at the end of which you collapse from exhaustion. And THIS is a "day of rest"? Whew, not even close!

Well OK,,, it's on MY list anyway. I totally appreciate the Sabbath these days! Ha Ha

[John317]

John317, we have been down this trail before my friend. Satan believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but what good will that do him? It's not the belief that Jesus is the Son of God as Jesus even warned His own disciples not to be deceived by people who would say that Jesus is the Christ. (Matt. 24:5) Therefore the simple belief that Jesus is the Christ is not what John 3:16 is about. It is about obeying what Jesus said that counts. When you obey then you show you love God and your belief is real.

Does Satan have the kind of belief that I described?

Quote:

It means putting one's absolute reliance in Him, in much the same way that a person puts his total reliance on a chair when he sits down on it. Better yet, it's like a patient putting his life in the hands of his heart surgeon.

That is the kind of belief referred to in John 3: 16.

Satan doesn't have true belief/faith/trust in Christ. His belief does not lead him to repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

If you've been reading what I've been writing all these months and years, you would know this. I'm talking about firm reliance upon Christ. That is quite different from a mere assent to Christ's existence.

[Overaged]

Let every man be convinced in his own heart. But trust me on this one Overaged, you can add "no racing your car in a sanctioned competition event on the sabbath", to the list.

Man, do you know how much WORK it is to get the car loaded? The tools? The extra tires? The setup in the garage or the pitts? Where to drop the trailor? Where to park the truck? Where to park the pitt crew? How we doing lunch? Rolling around the tool boxes, the air compressor, the chairs and tables? The million little details calling for your attention? The adrenalin factor? The amount of "Red Bull" required to get through the day? It's one hectic intense day at the end of which you collapse from exhaustion. And THIS is a "day of rest"? Whew, not even close!

Well OK,,, it's on MY list anyway. I totally appreciate the Sabbath these days! Ha Ha

The Pastor's hardest day of physical labor is often the Sabbath. We really need to do something to prevent this apostasy.

[John317]

There is NOTHING in John 3 that says anything about dying for anyone!

The phrase in verse 14 below, "so must the Son of Man be lifted up," clearly and most certainly refers to the death of Christ. This is proved by a comparison of John 8: 28:

So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me."

Jesus can be speaking of nothing else here than His own death.

The world-- i.e., sinners--- are saved in only one way, and that is by the death and resurrection of the Son of God.

John 3:14-18, 36

[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, [15] that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

[16] "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. ....[36] Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

[LifeHiscost]

We really need to do something to prevent this apostasy.

"And he answered, “If you had a sheep that fell into a well on the Sabbath, wouldn’t you work to pull it out? Of course you would. And how much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Yes, the law permits a person to do good on the Sabbath.”"Matthew 12:11-13 NLT

God blesses

[onlyhumanme]

I will share a few things to maybe clear up things and make it simpler i hope .

The Lord god(later as jesus) was slain from the Foundation of the world Romans 8:2,Revelation 13:8 did cover all of humanity for our opportunity to seek the lord; Gen 2:17,Ecclesiastes 12:7,Acts 17:26-28 symbolised by the lamb skin exchange for fig leaves of self righteousness- 1 Timothy 2:13-14 Isaiah 61:10-11

then as the son of man jesus did he later show our slow minds what he had done originally as the son of- God the father and show us what was now possible as humans if we allow Him to take our old hearts in exchange for his new one..

psalm 51:5.

Of our own selves we can do nothing we cannot get to heaven by keeping the law only but by giving our old man to jesus.Romans 8:1

There is No record of adam trying to be good before the exchange because that is impossible Gen3:15 ,John 3:3

So as for Grace by grace you are saved Ephesians 2:1-8 for it is not that we have acted on our sinful nature but that we now posses it which is the problem as the wages of sin are death which would have been around 24hours (in the same day you eat thereof) without protection the lord gods initial sacrifice for man.2 corinthians 5:20-21

This universal grace is no more no less than what he has done for the rebellious angels as he must be seen to be fair and proper Psalm 119:160

Revelation 16:7

Anyhow So we can see that we all must die because of sin except some choose to die spiritually before our physical death.(Edit:we do not have to physically die as jesus who wants our firstborn nature to die -it is satan that wants us to stay in our firstborn condition so we do die a physical death as it shorts the time to choose if he can get us to drink and drive for example chances of death increase.But i will say you do not have to die the first physical death)

The Law has much of its value in the condition of the heart and we know we cant get a new heart by trying we must remove our old self for no man can enter heaven by law alone Romans 7:9-11

but since man usually looks at the outward actions there is always a difference.Matt 5:27-28 Romans 6:1-11,Romans 12:1-2,Ezekail 11:19-21,1Kings 9:4-5,1Kings 11:4,1kings 14:8

Its the growing of the new heart that brings about the walk with god and the keeping of the commandments the right way Micah 6:8

But many who on this earth who do not keep the commandments will join us if their heart is willing but they will keep them in heaven if they do not attempt self righteousness and say i know him but comes humbly for forgiveness 1 corinthians 15:51-53 Luke 23:43

As for the Sabbath keeping its the same its the condition of the heart that god looks at and needs for proper sabbath keeping to occur Hebrews 3:14-19 Hebrews 5:7-8

Anything other than this is an attempt at righteousness by works as it is not temptation that we have to fight ,but our inclination to try and save ourselves Hebrews 4:1-10 John 5:30 john 8:28-29 Hebrews 5:7-10

to be drawn by jesus with a new heart will be displayed by keeping his commandments and by this 'we experience him' .1 John 2:1-4

Anyhow just the basics if it helps anyone ,oh and theyre just expressions of my beliefs , peace friends..

[ClubV12]

So if the Pastors hardest day of physical labor is Sabbath, then it's OK for me to skip church and go racing? Or work at the construction site? Or fix stuff around the house? Would this be before or after the Pastors sermon, or should I skip church all together so the Pastor "can rest"?

Does the Pastor working so hard on Sabbath give me "carte blanc" to also work, as I see fit?

[Overaged]

Should I help that elderly Sabbath school teacher with her flat tire before or after the sermon? Should I shovel the snow in front of the church entrance before or after the sermon? etc etc etc.

[nuff sed]

Should I help that elderly Sabbath school teacher with her flat tire before or after the sermon? Should I shovel the snow in front of the church entrance before or after the sermon? etc etc etc.

The answer is "Yes".......nuff sed

[ClubV12]

...and when your finished changing the tire, hit the race track after the sermon?

Ha Ha

One always need to find the balance, of course I would change her tire. We need to avoid extremes on either side of an issue.