Does the following EGW advice apply today?

[Gerr]

Before a person will believe that God made two separate groups of humans, one must first give up belief in the Bible--

Acts 17:26

And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

But Dr. Rich will say, "But Luke was not an eyewitness, and was not quoting what Jesus said!" Right, Dr. Rich?

[John317]

Yes, that's unfortunately true, but in order to believe what he does, he must realize he has to first reject what is in the Bible. And to believe God created two groups of humans, SDAs also have to reject the writings of Ellen White. So there are a lot of protecting walls that God has placed around us that we must pull down before we can be led into error. If we want to go that way, God won't force us not to, yet we have to fight against the "goads" if we're going to.

[Guest]

Before a person will believe that God made two separate groups of humans, one must first give up belief in the Bible--

That is absolutely correct! But that fact doesn't seem to bother the three self proclaimed "wise men" at all.

[Guest]

On the sixth day God created the nations/ethnic groups and they were created in the various landmasses on earth. ... God sent teachers from heaven to teach mankind what they needed to know to live on the earth, such as, farming, construction, mathmatics.... The one who was placed in charge of all of this was named accordingly, Lucifer (the light/knowledge bringer)

Where is that in the Bible?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

On the sixth day God created the nations/ethnic groups and they were created in the various landmasses on earth. ... God sent teachers from heaven to teach mankind what they needed to know to live on the earth, such as, farming, construction, mathmatics.... The one who was placed in charge of all of this was named accordingly, Lucifer (the light/knowledge bringer)

Where is that in the Bible?

I believe that can be found in: Is.66:4 John 5:43 Gal. 5:20 II Pet.2:1

[wayfinder]

Thank-you Doug, these are a few of the texts.

Richard, the texts are there if you choose to see it, I highly doubt that even if I were to explain the texts to you that you would believe. There is also a plethera of extra biblical records that support the fact that mankind was created and given light/knowledge by beings who came down from the heavens. The thing that one must keep in mind is, that these beings became masters of lies, so much of the information we have today is skewed to their advantage. I will say this, if you are able to use the writings of EGW as factual, then I should be able to use the Book of Enoch, the Summerian records, and the Pseudo-Clementine literature.

Genesis 6:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone ; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.

21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept ; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.

It appears from this statement that there was a search for a suitable helper/mate for Adam, but none was found. So God formed a helper from Adam's rib. Question, if there were no females on the face of the earth at this time of what did the search entail?

Genesis 3:5(Septuagint) For God knew that in whatever day ye should eat of it your eyes would be opened, and ye would be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The Serpent's own words would indicate that there are gods who know good and evil, and that by eating of the forbidden tree Adam and Eve would be like those gods, knowing good and evil. The Serpent obviously knows good and evil and therefore is referring to himself as one of the gods. Notice in the verse above that the God who knew is capitalized and the gods who know is lower case.

Richard, I truly care about you, and your salvation.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Where is that in the Bible?

I believe that can be found in: Is.66:4 John 5:43 Gal. 5:20 II Pet.2:1

Other than it being evident that there is and were men who gave themselves over to the leading of the evil one, it is necessary

to do a real stretch of the imagination to bring out other species of mankind than what is revealed about the descendants of Adam and Eve.

"Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

Romans 1:27-32 NKJV

The fact that there would be brought in other ideas of spiritual misinformation, not immediately obvious to the believers in Jesus Christ as Lord, makes it all the more clear that God is ready to bring to an end, the confusion that is more and more a part of the human condition of the age in which we live. Not to mention that the means for distributing the gospel to every man woman and child on this earth is now available for the finishing of the work.

"But he who endures to the end will be saved.

And this good news of the kingdom (the Gospel) will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.

So when you see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place--let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]"Matthew 24:15

AMP

God blesses!

[phkrause]

Genesis 6:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone ; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.

21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept ; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.

How do you get nations and many other people from this??? He's talking about the animals that he had created just before the Man! And had Adam name them! And than God made Woman from the Man!

[phkrause]

Genesis 3:5(Septuagint) For God knew that in whatever day ye should eat of it your eyes would be opened, and ye would be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The Serpent's own words would indicate that there are gods who know good and evil, and that by eating of the forbidden tree Adam and Eve would be like those gods, knowing good and evil. The Serpent obviously knows good and evil and therefore is referring to himself as one of the gods. Notice in the verse above that the God who knew is capitalized and the gods who know is lower case.

The Septuagint is incorrect. The Hebrew Bible says "God" not gods!!!!!!

[Guest]

On the sixth day God created the nations/ethnic groups and they were created in the various landmasses on earth. ... God sent teachers from heaven to teach mankind what they needed to know to live on the earth, such as, farming, construction, mathmatics.... The one who was placed in charge of all of this was named accordingly, Lucifer (the light/knowledge bringer)

[Guest]

The Septuagint is incorrect. The Hebrew Bible says "God" not gods!!!!!!

Amen pk,

I hope this beautiful Sabbath day finds you doing well.

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

The Septuagint is incorrect. The Hebrew Bible says "God" not gods!!!!!!

Amen pk,

I hope this beautiful Sabbath day finds you doing well.

I was unaware that the Hebrew's had a Bible.

Happy Sabbath, and I hope you are doing well, Richard and pk

[wayfinder]

Genesis 3:5(KJV) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened , and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

If by "Hebrew Bible" you mean the KJV, the above is taken from the "Hebrew Bible"

[Guest]

No wayf, he is not talking about the KJV.

for God(H430) knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,(H430) knowing good and evil." Gen 3:5(HNV)

[phkrause]

Amen pk,

I hope this beautiful Sabbath day finds you doing well.

Yes it does, Richard, and I do hope the same for you and yours.

[phkrause]

I was unaware that the Hebrew's had a Bible.

Happy Sabbath, and I hope you are doing well, Richard and pk

Thanks wayfinder for the Sabbath wish. The same to you. Actually the online Hebrew Bible says "Angels," my Jewish Bible that I have says God. And yes the Jews do have a Bible!! I thought that you studied this to come up with your conclution????? What do you think that Jesus read? He read the Hebrew Scripture's which was obviously written in Hebrew. The Jews themselves do not except any Christian Bible. They have translated it themselves as a matter of fact, its called, the Tanach, let me give you the link to there Bible: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

[wayfinder]

Thanks pk for the link, I will check it out.

[phkrause]

Thanks pk for the link, I will check it out.

Your welcome.

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

The Septuagint is incorrect. The Hebrew Bible says "God" not gods!!!!!!

Amen pk,

I hope this beautiful Sabbath day finds you doing well.

I found this info., you may find it interesting.

Institue for Biblcal and scientific studies

OT Dead Sea Scrolls.

Most Scholars saw the LXX as inferior to the Hebrew Bible called the Masoretic Text (MT). With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, this all changed. Ancient Hebrew scrolls were found that follow the LXX, not the Masoretic Text. The DSS showed that the LXX had an underlying Hebrew Text that was different from the MT.

Now Scholars think the LXX has important readings that are superior to the MT. The LXX is now very important in textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible. Let's look at some of the key differences between the LXX and the MT where the LXX seems to be superior.

[John317]

Genesis 3:5(Septuagint) For God knew that in whatever day ye should eat of it your eyes would be opened, and ye would be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The Serpent's own words would indicate that there are gods who know good and evil, and that by eating of the forbidden tree Adam and Eve would be like those gods, knowing good and evil. The Serpent obviously knows good and evil and therefore is referring to himself as one of the gods. Notice in the verse above that the God who knew is capitalized and the gods who know is lower case.

Richard, I truly care about you, and your salvation.

Yes, the Septuagint does translate the original Hebrew [elohim] to read "as gods."

However, the Hebrew is the identical word here as is used in the previous line where the Septuagint has "God." It is also the same word as is used in verse 3. That Hebrew word is "elohim," which is a plural noun. Therefore, the reading "gods" is a possibility but it is an interpretaion by the translators, not something that can be shown on the basis of the language itself. If we are consistent in our transltion of the Hebrew, we will translate it "as God."

The SDA Bible Commentary summarizes it well:

Quote:

"The same word translated in the KJV 'gods,' elohim, is rendered 'God' in vs. 1, 3, and 5. The translators of the KJV here followed the LXX and the Vulgate. The correct rendering is, 'Ye shall be as God.' This reveals most sharply the blasphemous nature of Satan's words (see Isa. 14: 12-14) and the full gravity of his deception."

Young's Literal Translation, Rotherham's translation, the RSV, the Complete Jewish Bible, the NIV, and the NASB all translate Gen. 3: 5 to read "like God."

The New Jerusalem Bible (Catholic), the Christian Community Bible (Catholic), the New American Bible (Catholic)and the Jewish Publication Society's translation read "gods" or "divine beings"(JPS). (In its footnote, the JPS translation acknowledges that the reading may also be "God.")

I'm personally Ok with "gods," but I recognize that's an interpretation rather than a consistent literal translation of the Hebrew. The idea that Satan was communicating to Eve was that if she ate of the fruit he was tempting her to eat, she would become divine and be no longer merely human. The serpent wasn't telling her that if she ate of the forbidden fruit, she would become like the serpent in the tree. He was tempting her with something much more: she would become like God Himself. Satan was putting into Eve's mind the idea that God was withholding from her that which would make her like Himself. Satan's idea seems to have been for Eve to think that God didn't want her to be a rival of His immense powers and knowledge. At the same time, the serpent perhaps was suggesting that the forbidden fruit would have the same powerful affect on her as it had evidently had on the snake to enable it to speak like a human being.

[wayfinder]

Thank-you John317, I agree that that is a fair assesment of the text given that specific context. My understanding of the Hebrew word, translated elohim, is that it is singular unless it is used with a plural verb. In Genesis 3:5 the plural verb "as", also translated like, is plural and that is why most translation have it rendered as "gods".

My rational for accepting this rendering is that I believe there were two creations and the usurping of the first creation by Lucifer, necessitated the second creation as a means of restoring God's authority over the earth. I believe that Adam and Eve were well aware that there were other humans outside of the garden and there were supernatural beings "gods" that ruled over them. These gods were the teachers of mankind of the first creation and were seen as having great wisdom and power. Adam and Eve were most likely intrigued by the thought of attaing the wisdom of the gods, just by eating of the forbidden tree. The serpent said "you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. The beings of the first creations did not know evil, they were decieved by their teachers. Their teachers, on the otherhand, learned evil when they went against God's command and decieved His created beings. So Adam and Eve would learn evil by disobeying God, which is what the fallen angels had done, these were the gods/elohim. In that respect, the serpent did not lie, they did become as gods knowing evil and good.

Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil ; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "-

23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

This text would seem to indicate that the serpent was speaking of Gods not gods, but it then would indicate that the true God of heaven is plural "become like one of Us", we may ask which one of the Us. It would seem that the Lord God is saying the the knowledge of evil, or knowing evil, is devine knowledge, only the Gods, gods, know what evil is.

[John317]

Actually the online Hebrew Bible says "Angels," my Jewish Bible that I have says God. And yes the Jews do have a Bible!! I thought that you studied this to come up with your conclution????? What do you think that Jesus read? He read the Hebrew Scripture's which was obviously written in Hebrew. The Jews themselves do not except any Christian Bible. They have translated it themselves as a matter of fact, its called, the Tanach, let me give you the link to there Bible:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

The translation given at this link is not a literal reading of the Hebrew. As you point out, at Gen 3: 5, this translation reads, "angels," yet the Hebrew for "angels" is Strongs #4397, as used in Gen. 28: 12.

Genesis 28:12

And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

Elohim is Strongs #430. This word probably signifies "angels" in Ps. 8: 5 (KJV, "angels") and 97: 7 (KJV, "gods").

Anyone who knows what he word "elohim" looks like can see that in this verse, the word occurs twice. The first time, it is translated "God," and the second time, "angels."

[John317]

My understanding of the Hebrew word, translated elohim, is that it is singular unless it is used with a plural verb. In Genesis 3:5 the plural verb "as", also translated like, is plural and that is why most translation have it rendered as "gods".

The words "as" or "like" are not verbs, though. (It's a conjunction, similar to the Greek conjunction hos, meaning "like," or "as." See Matt. 10: 16; Eph. 5: 8.In Hebrew, the conjunction is attached to the beginning of the noun, as it is in this instance; but it is indeclineable, meaning that the conjunction is neither plural nor singular. It has the same form whether it's attached to a singular or a plural noun.)

There's no grammatical rule applying here that requires the noun "elohim" to be translated as "gods." It is identical here as in verses 3 and 5 where it is translated "God." If such a clear rule applied, you would have much more consistentcy in all the translations. The reason that the translations differ is that there is no rule that tells the translator that it should be translated "gods" or "angels." Grammatically, the translation of "gods" or "divine beings" is possible, but consistency requires that it be translated the same way both times since it is precisely the same in both instances.

[phkrause]

The translation given at this link is not a literal reading of the Hebrew. As you point out, at Gen 3: 5, this translation reads, "angels," yet the Hebrew for "angels" is Strongs #4397, as used in Gen. 28: 12.

Genesis 28:12

And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

Elohim is Strongs #430. This word probably signifies "angels" in Ps. 8: 5 (KJV, "angels") and 97: 7 (KJV, "gods").

Anyone who knows what he word "elohim" looks like can see that in this verse, the word occurs twice. The first time, it is translated "God," and the second time, "angels."

It does seem strange that they translated this as angels. I would be curious why? My Complete Jewish Bible does say "God" which would make more sense to a novice like me.

[John317]

It does seem strange that they translated this as angels. I would be curious why? My Complete Jewish Bible does say "God" which would make more sense to a novice like me.

Your Complete Jewish Bible in this instance is the more correct translation. The translation "angels" is more of a paraphrase than a literal translation. In other words, the translation at the link you gave is interpreting, and it is possibly true. The word "elohim" does sometimes refer to angels, although it is the common noun for the true God.