Why Adventists don't agree with the Nicene Creed.

[John317]

In regard to the statement "three living persons in the heavenly trio", Ellen G. White changed this statement in her own handwriting to state:

"There are the living three personalities of the heavenly trio in which every soul repenting of their sins believing receiving Christ by a living faith to them who are baptized."

Obviously, she made a distinction between a "person" and a "personality".

Yet she also says that the Holy Spirit is both a person and a personality and a distinct personality. She also says the Holy Spirit is "the third person of the Godhead." There can't be a third person if there is not also a first and a second person. So according to Ellen White, the eternal Godhead consists of three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Elsewhere she calls these "three beings." (See quotes below.)

What is a "trio"? Trio=three=trinity.

Ellen White specifically says that the Holy Spirit is a person. All three persons of the eternal Godheead are persons and personalities. All three of these "holiest persons of heaven" are individually the fullness of the Godhead.

Please take note of the following paragraphs from Ellen G. White's writings:

Quote:

III. Three Persons in the Godhead

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers--the Father, the Son, and the

(442)

Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Evangelism, p. 615. {7ABC 441.9}

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.--Counsels on Health, p. 222. {7ABC 442.1}

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ's name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. We may have the Holy Spirit if we ask for it and make it [a] habit to turn to and trust in God rather than in any finite human agent who may make mistakes. {20MR 324.2}

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

The Pre-existent, Self-existent Son of God.--Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God.... In speaking of his pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him.--Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900. {Ev 615.2}

He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. . . . He is the eternal, self-existent Son.--Manuscript 101, 1897. {Ev 615.3}

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do,

-268-

I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 268.1}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . .

617

{Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.-- We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {Ev 617.3}

Keep yourselves where the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, can be your efficiency. These powers work with the one who gives himself unreservedly to God. The strength of heaven is at the command of God's believing ones. The man who takes God as his trust is barricaded by an impregnable wall.--The Southern Watchman, Feb. 23, 1904, p. 122. {7ABC 442.2}

Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the fulfilment of the covenant that God has made with those who bind themselves up with Him, to stand with Him, with His Son, and with His Spirit in holy fellowship. Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then co-operate with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf. Doing this you will reveal to the world the principles of righteousness.--The Signs of the Times, June 19, 1901. {7ABC 442.3}

The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Evangelism, p. 616. {7ABC 442.4}

We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven, --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,--and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.-- Ibid., p. 617. {7ABC 442.5}

Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have forsaken the service of Satan and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly king.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 91. {7ABC 442.6}

Let us remember that the coming of the Lord is nearer than when we first believed. What a wonderful thought it is that the great controversy is nearing its end. In the great closing work we shall meet with perplexities that we know not how to deal with, but let us not forget that the three great Powers of heaven are working, that a divine hand is on the wheel, and that God will bring His purposes to pass.

Before the disciples shall compass the threshold, there is to be the imprint of the sacred name, baptizing the believers in the name of the threefold powers in the heavenly world. The human mind is impressed in this ceremony, the beginning of the Christian life. It means very much. The work of salvation is not a small matter, but so vast that the highest authorities are taken hold of by the expressed faith of the human agent. The eternal Godhead--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost--is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent, . . . confederating the heavenly powers with the human that man may become, through heavenly efficiency, partakers of the divine nature and workers together with Christ. {UL 148.4}

Man's capabilities can multiply through the connection of human agencies with divine agencies. United with the heavenly powers, the human capabilities increase according to that faith that works by love and purifies, sanctifies, and ennobles the whole man.--Manuscript 45, May 14, 1904, "That They All May Be One." {UL 148.5}

[Dr. Waite]

John:

Are you saying the Father did not answer Christ's prayer? This is what He prayed:

John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

By answering this prayer, would not the Father have restored to the Son of God the omnipresence he had before the world was?

If the Son of God does NOT now have omnipresence, then He cannot be "fully God" in the sense that the Father is fully God.

[Gustave]

I have to agree John, I haven't seen any answers either, just opinions. Which is fine in my book. What bothers me is when someone just claims there opinions are more right that everyone elses.

Then why have you not offered any Bible verses to demonstrate why my "opinion" is wrong?

...I gave 29 Scriptures which all said the same thing.

[Dr. Waite]

John:

Thanks for the EGW quotes. Does she ever use the term "God the holy spirit" or "God the holy ghost"? Does she ever state that we are to worship the holy spirit or "God the holy spirit"?

John, there are 92 hits in the EGW cd rom under the "agency of the holy spirit". In reading these hits, it is abundantly clear that EGW taught that the holy spirit is an agent of the Father and the Son, and not "God the holy spirit".

The fundamental belief that you subscribe to state that there are three "gods" - "God the Father", God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" and they are one "god" because they are united or that "god" is a unity of three co-eternal persons.

The pioneers clearly stated their belief that the holy spirit is the representative or agent of the only true God which is the Father. The pioneers stated:

"I. That there is one God, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Ps. 139:7."

So, John, please give me a quote from EGW or the Holy Scriptures that the holy spirit is a third god and not an agent or representative of the only true God spoken about in John 17:3.

[Gustave]

What Adventist denominations do you have in mind? Can you name them all?

Do you have references to support this statement? Please show them.

I will be delighted if your statement is true, but I did not know that all the Adventists denominations were that far advanced in their theological development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventism

They are listed at the above URL....

...You do realize that George Storrs and Incarnation of Elijah ( Sam Snow ).

...Are the two people who convinced Miller of the 7th month movement subsequent to the 2nd failed prediction of Jesus' coming, right?

All Adventist groups believe that Jesus was previously Michael the archangel / believe in soul sleep...

...And of course believe the Lord's Christ could have lost His Salvation.

[John317]

Dr. Waite, please study all the quotes on post#439995. I think you'll find your answers there. If those quotes don't answer your questions about who are the three persons in the eternal Godhead, please let me know. I think the quotes are very plain and clear. The "eternal Godhead" does not change. The three persons who were the Godhead in ages past are still the same three persons of the eternal Godhead today and will be the same three forever. The third person of the Godhead could NOT very well be the third person without being a person. Notice also that Ellen White refers to these "three holiest persons of heaven" as "three beings." So the Holy Spirit is both a person, a distinct person, and one of three beings of heaven, all three of whom are the fullness of the Godhead.

[Stan]

I think it is a tough thing for humans to describe God. We can only think human.

I do know this "The Lord Our God Is One Lord"

[Gustave]

John:

Thanks for the EGW quotes. Does she ever use the term "God the holy spirit" or "God the holy ghost"? Does she ever state that we are to worship the holy spirit or "God the holy spirit"?

John, there are 92 hits in the EGW cd rom under the "agency of the holy spirit". In reading these hits, it is abundantly clear that EGW taught that the holy spirit is an agent of the Father and the Son, and not "God the holy spirit".

The fundamental belief that you subscribe to state that there are three "gods" - "God the Father", God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" and they are one "god" because they are united or that "god" is a unity of three co-eternal persons.

The pioneers clearly stated their belief that the holy spirit is the representative or agent of the only true God which is the Father. The pioneers stated:

"I. That there is one God, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Ps. 139:7."

You are actually correct in that Ellen White considered the Holy Spirit a simple agency...

...It was not a "PERSON" like the Father or the Son.

...In Ellen's view only God was God.

In the article I posted previously in this thread the author has NO PROBLEM at all....

...In calling Jesus God - and the reason is given because Christ had God for his father.

Ellen WHite was never a Trinitarian any more than her husband or Uriah Smith was...

..Within the next couple of years this will become obvious to all SDA's.

[Dr. Waite]

John:

The quote of the the "three beings" are from steographic notes of a talk given by EGW and NOT her own words. Please check this out to see if what I am saying is true.

[John317]

Then why have you not offered any Bible verses to demonstrate why my "opinion" is wrong?

...I gave 29 Scriptures which all said the same thing.

Your 29 Scriptures are prophetic promises of what Christ would do to save human beings, but how do you arrive at the conclusion that they made it impossible for the man, Jesus of Nazareth, to have a real choice whether to obey or disoeby the father?

Please show your reasoning in the Scriptures so I can see how you reached your conclusion. We all do believe in the prophecies and in God's prophecies but we don't see how those prophecies and promises mean that Christ did not have real moral choices to make.

[Dr. Waite]

Stan:

Just because we cannot describe "God" or the holy spirit, does not mean that we should accept a doctrine or teaching to which there is NOT a "plain saith the LORD". Please read the whole chapter in the book "great controversy" entitled "The Scriptures our Safeguard".

[John317]

John:

Thanks for the EGW quotes. Does she ever use the term "God the holy spirit" or "God the holy ghost"? Does she ever state that we are to worship the holy spirit or "God the holy spirit"?

No. And neither does he Bible. But let's review what Ellen White does say in reference to the Holy Spirit:

1) The Holy Spirit is one of three living persons in the heavenly trio.

2) The Holy Spirit is one of three living persons and three powers that co-operate with obedient subjects of heaven.

3) The Holy Spirit was one of three persons of the Godhead who was stirred with pity for the human race and gave Himself along with the Father and the Son to the working out of the plan of redemption.(CH 222) So the Holy Spirit is capable of feeling pity and of giving Himself to work and planning.

4) The Holy Spirit is a distinct personality.

5) The Holy Spirit is the fullness of the Godhead in the same way that the Father and the Son are the fullness of the Godhead.

6) The Holy Spirit is one of three great powers of heaven who cooperate with human beings.

7) The Holy Spirit is as much a person as God is a person.

8) The Holy Spirit is one of three holy persons of the eternal Godhead.

9) The Holy Spirit is one of three heavenly powers.

10) The Holy Spirit is one of three persons of the eternal Godhead who hold Satan in check.

Quote:

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Evangelism, p. 615. {7ABC 441.9}

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.--Counsels on Health, p. 222. {7ABC 442.1}

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ's name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. {20MR 324.2}

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.... When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 268.1}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God.{Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.-- We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {Ev 617.3}

Keep yourselves where the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, can be your efficiency. These powers work with the one who gives himself unreservedly to God. ...--The Southern Watchman, Feb. 23, 1904, p. 122. {7ABC 442.2}

Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the fulfilment of the covenant that God has made with those who bind themselves up with Him, to stand with Him, with His Son, and with His Spirit in holy fellowship. Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then co-operate with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf..--The Signs of the Times, June 19, 1901. {7ABC 442.3}

The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Evangelism, p. 616. {7ABC 442.4}

We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven, --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,--and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.-- Ibid., p. 617. {7ABC 442.5}

Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have forsaken the service of Satan and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly king.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 91. {7ABC 442.6}

Let us remember that the coming of the Lord is nearer than when we first believed. What a wonderful thought it is that the great controversy is nearing its end. In the great closing work we shall meet with perplexities that we know not how to deal with, but let us not forget that the three great Powers of heaven are working, that a divine hand is on the wheel, and that God will bring His purposes to pass.

Before the disciples shall compass the threshold, there is to be the imprint of the sacred name, baptizing the believers in the name of the threefold powers in the heavenly world. ... The eternal Godhead--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost--is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent, . . . confederating the heavenly powers with the human that man may become, through heavenly efficiency, partakers of the divine nature and workers together with Christ. {UL 148.4}

Man's capabilities can multiply through the connection of human agencies with divine agencies. United with the heavenly powers, the human capabilities increase according to that faith that works by love and purifies, sanctifies, and ennobles the whole man.--Manuscript 45, May 14, 1904, "That They All May Be One." {UL 148.5}

[John317]

John:

The quote of the the "three beings" are from steographic notes of a talk given by EGW and NOT her own words. Please check this out to see if what I am saying is true.

It's true that those words are part of a sermon that Ellen Whttie preached. She paid professional stenographers to take down her sermons word for word in order to use them as articles and parts of books.

But why do you question her use of "three beings"? Is it perhaps because those words show clearly that she was talking about the Holy Spirit as a being? Are you going to question all of her sermons or just this part of only this sermon?

However, even if she never had those particular words recorded, there is plenty of evidence that she was talking about three beings. (As in the Bible, the truth is so redundant that it wouldn't matter if you take out a few passages or words here and there: the truth is still there. Therefore, it won't matter if you refuse to accept "three beings" or even if you reject Matt. 28: 19 and 1 John 5: 7. I could give you those verses and it wouldn't change or weaken the clear teaching of the Bible or SOP on the topic we're discussing here.)

What are you going to do with all of her other words, such as, "The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead"?

How many persons are there in the Godhead? There are three, right? Who are they? They are the Father,the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three distict persons. The Holy Spirit is not a part of the Father or a part of the Son. The Holy Spirit is a person and a personality in His own right.

How do you get three persons in the Godhead if there are only two persons, the Father and the Son?

It wouldn't make sense to talk of three persons of the Godhead if God the Father is being counted twice. That would be, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Father" or "some part of the father." Does that make any sense? It doesn't to me.

How can the Holy Spirit be called "a person" if He is not a person?

How can the Holy Spirit "behold our course of action" if the Holy Spirit is not a person and cannot see? (1 SM 96)

The bottom line is that the words, "three beings" is consistent with everythign else Ellen White said. Therefore there is no logical reason to doubt that she spoke those words in a sermon that was recorded by a professional stenographer, along with hundreds of other sermons, which you do not question. Remember that Ellen White read those sermons and made many of them into parts of published articles. She signed them as being true and accurate.

CONCLUSION: There is no question that Ellen White taught that the eternal Godhead consists of three holy, heavenly persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that these three are distinct persons and personalities who are able to see, feel, work, cooperate, plan, and carry out the plan.

If anyone has an objection to any part of this conclusion, please let me know so we can go back together carefully over her statements and see if they do indeed support it.

[John317]

In Matt 4 Jesus as God the Son in human form was "tempted" -- in Romans 8 "tempted in all points AS we are" -- But as Paul points out - God in pure God form (not incarnate) "cannot be tempted".

Jesus as God incarnate could be tempted and so by definition could have chosen to fall.

In Acts 1 Jesus said that he did not know the date/time of the 2nd coming -- yet God knows all.

When Jesus refuses the worship of Mary after the resurrection - he said it was because he had not yet ascended to the Father to receive that confirmation that the sacrifice was perfect and acceptable to God.

In the Garden Jesus tells Peter that IF He chose to - he could call 12 legions of angels to come to his aid - but he chose not to.

He also prays "not my will by thy will be done".

And he states clearly in John 12 "Of my own self I can do nothing" - he chose to limit his actions so as to be a transparent view of God the Father.

Jesus in subjection to the Father voluntarily chooses to limit himself.

Terrific points, Bob. And well worth posting again.

Those verses would not make sense if Christ was not capable of choosing other than He did. Otherwise Christ's righteouesness was not due to choice but to the absence of choice. In that case, the temptation and indeed the whole life of Christ was a mere pretense & charade. But we can be thankful to God that it wasn't a pretense at all but was very real, with genuine choices with serious consequences for the entire human race. I believe that is why Moses and Elijah were encouraging Jesus to go through with the plan of redemption.

Luke 9:30-31

And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, [31] who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure[i.e., death], which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Those two men would obviously have had a stake in what happened. If for any reason Christ had failed to carry it through, they would have been utterly lost along with all of humanity.

[Gustave]

In Matt 4 Jesus as God the Son in human form was "tempted" -- in Romans 8 "tempted in all points AS we are" -- But as Paul points out - God in pure God form (not incarnate) "cannot be tempted".

[John317]

What do you mean "as God the Son"?

...There wasn't a human Christ and a God Christ.

..."A double minded man is unstable in all his ways" James 1:8

Perhaps some examples from the Scriptures may help illustrate what's going on here...

...Notice what the following means.

Exodus 17:7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?

Numbers 14:22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice

Psalm 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel

The Bible is saturated with examples of God being "tempted"...

...As I said already this is simply a Jewish way of saying don't "TEST" God.

...There was zero possibility of God failing to meet the conditions of His being God.

...And therefore failing "conditionally" to meet the test.

...To say otherwise is simply heresy.

The Bible is clear that God cannot be tempted with evil.

The point is that God cannot be tempted with evil, but mankind can be. Just as it wasn't God who got tired and hungry, so it wasn't God who was tempted by Satan and evil in the wilderness. But the man, Jesus of Nazareth, was most certainly tempted.

James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

[Gustave]

In 1890 there were no other SDAs teaching what she wrote in Patriarchs and Prophets concerning the pre-existent Christ. Nor did other SDAs teach in 1898 what Ellen White wrote in The Desire of Ages about Christ. In the 1890s, she was telling people that there are three living persons, or beings, in the heavenly trio and that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. These are clearly not the words of someone who believes the Arian view of God.

[John317]

...This is why she had no problem calling the Holy Spirit as "IT".

The Bible also calls the Holy Spirit "it." I have called the Holy Spirit "it" before even though I believe the Holy Spirit is a person. Calling the Holy Spirit or a child "it" is no evidence that the Holy Spirit or a child is considered by the speaker or writer as a non-person. Jesus called the Holy Spirit "it" sometimes. But did Jesus think of the Holy Spirit as an "it"? No.

Then please don't say things that are not based on fact. Ellen White plainly called the Holy Spirit "Him " and a "person."

"The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God." (Ev. 617) (Ms. 20, 1906)

She says clearly that the Holy Spirit is a person:

"Christ gave His representative, the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit." Ms. 44, 1898. (CTr 301.5)

The Spirit can't be the third person of the Godhead without being a person.

[John317]

Gustave, don't you see a difference between being God being tempted or tested in the wildernesss of Sinai by the children of Israel's wickedness, and Jesus' being tempted or tested by evil and by the Devil?

There's a huge distinction here. God cannot be tempted by the devil, but a man can be. Jesus was a man, was he not?

[John317]

The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1}

The office of the Holy Spirit is distinctly specified in the words of Christ: "When He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." John 16:8. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. If the sinner responds to the quickening influence of the Spirit, he will be brought to repentance and aroused to the importance of obeying the divine requirements. {AA 52.2}

To the repentant sinner, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, the Holy Spirit reveals the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. "He shall receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you," Christ said. "He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 16:14; 14:26. {AA 52.3}

The Spirit is given as a regenerating agency, to make effectual the salvation wrought by the death of our Redeemer. The Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of men to the great offering that was made on the cross of Calvary, to unfold to the world the love of God, and to open to the convicted soul the precious things of the Scriptures. {AA 52.4}

Having brought conviction of sin, and presented before the mind the standard of righteousness, the Holy Spirit

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withdraws the affections from the things of this earth and fills the soul with a desire for holiness. "He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13), the Saviour declared. If men are willing to be molded, there will be brought about a sanctification of the whole being. The Spirit will take the things of God and stamp them on the soul. By His power the way of life will be made so plain that none need err therein. {AA 52.5}

From the beginning, God has been working by His Holy Spirit through human instrumentalities for the accomplishment of His purpose in behalf of the fallen race. This was manifest in the lives of the patriarchs. To the church in the wilderness also, in the time of Moses, God gave His "good Spirit to instruct them." Nehemiah 9:20. And in the days of the apostles He wrought mightily for His church through the agency of the Holy Spirit. The same power that sustained the patriarchs, that gave Caleb and Joshua faith and courage, and that made the work of the apostolic church effective, has upheld God's faithful children in every succeeding age. It was through the power of the Holy Spirit that during the Dark Ages the Waldensian Christians helped to prepare the way for the Reformation. It was the same power that made successful the efforts of the noble men and women who pioneered the way for the establishment of modern missions and for the translation of the Bible into the languages and dialects of all nations and peoples. {AA 53.1}

And today God is still using His church to make known His purpose in the earth. Today the heralds of the cross are going from city to city, and from land to land, preparing

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the way for the second advent of Christ. The standard of God's law is being exalted. The Spirit of the Almighty is moving upon men's hearts, and those who respond to its influence become witnesses for God and His truth. In many places consecrated men and women may be seen communicating to others the light that has made plain to them the way of salvation through Christ. And as they continue to let their light shine, as did those who were baptized with the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, they receive more and still more of the Spirit's power. Thus the earth is to be lightened with the glory of God. {AA 53.2}

[Gustave]

The Bible is clear that God cannot be tempted with evil.

[Gustave]

Gustave, don't you see a difference between being God being tempted or tested in the wildernesss of Sinai by the children of Israel's wickedness, and Jesus' being tempted or tested by evil and by the Devil?

There's a huge distinction here. God cannot be tempted by the devil, but a man can be. Jesus was a man, was he not?

There was ZERO difference adide from the fact the Person of Christ ( felt pain ), hunger,fear, etc...

...Our God was tempted or tested by all our infirmities of the body YET w/out sin.

[John317]

...Ellen nor the Pioneers believed the Holy Spirit was a "Person".

Ellen White did most certainly believe the Holy Spirit was a person:

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers--the Father, the Son, and the The Holy Spirit ... is a distinct personality. {20MR 324.2}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. {Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

[Woody]

From a Lurker:

Gustave seems to be making a lot of unfounded accusations but without substance. It makes it look rather silly. (like he is trying very hard to condemn both EgW and SDAs) It must be frustrating for him. At least I do sense some frustration.

Perhaps out of the frustration will come some good and he will become converted and join the church.

Praying.

[John317]

I think it is a tough thing for humans to describe God. We can only think human.

I do know this "The Lord Our God Is One Lord"

Quote:

The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1}

Quote:

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}