Why Adventists don't agree with the Nicene Creed.

[Gustave]

The Bible also calls the Holy Spirit "it." I have called the Holy Spirit "it" before even though I believe the Holy Spirit is a person. Calling the Holy Spirit or a child "it" is no evidence that the Holy Spirit or a child is considered by the speaker or writer as a non-person. Jesus called the Holy Spirit "it" sometimes. But did Jesus think of the Holy Spirit as an "it"? No.

[John317]

Ellen White: Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, and in purpose--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God.--GC 493. {TA 24.3}

Was Lucifer the archangel a "Being"?, Was Michael the archangel a "Being"...

...Does SDA theology require "God the Father is a Being"?

...If Christ was the ONLY "BEING" in the universe that could enter into all the councils of "GOD".

...Than in keeping with the Arian Rubric The Father is ONLY God in the ultimate sense.

The Holy Spirit could NOT therefore enter into all the councils of God....

...Because Christ was the ONLY being in the universe which COULD.

The context shows that Ellen White is talking about the only Being among the angels. Michael the Archangel was the only being who could enter the Father's counsels. In other words, the angels, except for Christ, could not enter the counsels. Lucifer could not enter.

Elsewhere Ellen White makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is divine person and the third person of the eternal Godhead. The eternal Godhead does not change. She makes it abundatntly clear that the eternal Godhead consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Therefore it is absurd to think that Ellen White is denying that third person of the Godhead could enter the councils of the Godhead.

[John317]

Ellen White refers to the Holy Spirit hundreds of times as "He." Jesus also referred to the Holy Spirit as both "it" and "He." So when you attack Ellen White for referring to the Holy Spirit in this way, you are also attacking Christ and the Bible. The fact is that the the word "Spirit" in the original language is neuter. In Hebrew, the word is feminine. Those things don't matter when it comes to speaking of the Holy Spirit. He is actually neither male nor female.

Secondly, you are totally ignoring the fact that Ellen White said plainly that the Holy Spirit is a person, a divine person, and a distinct personality-- the Third PERSON of the Godhead. THEREFORE NONE NEED BE CONFUSED ABOUT WHETHER ELLEN WHITE BELEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON. YES, SHE DID.

[Dr. Waite]

John:

My Bible states that the counsel in heaven was only between two persons or beings. NOT THREE.

"Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." Zechariah 6:13.

John, "both" means only two persons NOT THREE.

John, by making Zechariah 6:13 say three and not two could you be adding to the words of the Bible?

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book." Revelation 22:18.

[phkrause]

From a Lurker:

Gustave seems to be making a lot of unfounded accusations but without substance. It makes it look rather silly. (like he is trying very hard to condemn both EgW and SDAs) It must be frustrating for him. At least I do sense some frustration.

Perhaps out of the frustration will come some good and he will become converted and join the church.

Praying.

Woody I agree 100%

[John317]

Ellen White: Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, and in purpose--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God.--GC 493. {TA 24.3}

Was Lucifer the archangel a "Being"?, Was Michael the archangel a "Being"...

...Does SDA theology require "God the Father is a Being"?

...If Christ was the ONLY "BEING" in the universe that could enter into all the councils of "GOD".

...Than in keeping with the Arian Rubric The Father is ONLY God in the ultimate sense.

The Holy Spirit could NOT therefore enter into all the councils of God....

...Because Christ was the ONLY being in the universe which COULD.

This is simply not true. She says many times that the Holy Spirit is both God and the fullness of the Godhead. She also says that the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Godhead, and therefore it is silly to claim Ellen White is saying the Holy Spirit could not enter the councils of God. She says, "There are three persons in the heavenly trio," and then she names them as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

She also says that Christ is "God, essentially, and in the highest sense." She says many times that Christ is God.

Again, a study of the context of the statement about Christ as the only being in the universe who could enter the councils of God, shows that she is denying that Lucifer or the other angels could enter the councils. She is not denying that the third person of the Godhead could enter those councils. To even suggest such a thing is ridiculous and absurd.

[phkrause]

John you can't expect someone to see something they don't want to see. Jesus said as much to his disciples when they asked him why he speaks in parables. He said that those that truly were seeking would see and those that were not would not be able to discern anything.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Woody

From a Lurker:

Gustave seems to be making a lot of unfounded accusations but without substance. It makes it look rather silly. (like he is trying very hard to condemn both EgW and SDAs) It must be frustrating for him. At least I do sense some frustration.

Perhaps out of the frustration will come some good and he will become converted and join the church.

Praying.

Woody I agree 100%

Yes, me too.:-)

I think Gustave is helping to prove why it is a good decision on the part of the SDA Church to have nothing to do with the Creeds.

It is another demonstrable proof to me anyway.

[Woody]

I'm with you on that John

[John317]

I'm afraid you're right, pk.

Right now I'm writing for the people who will someday read these posts and this discussion. We sometimes have hundreds of people who simply read and don't post anything. Those are the ones I often write for.

[John317]

:-)

[phkrause]

Good point John.

[John317]

Ellen White: Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, and in purpose--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God.--GC 493. {TA 24.3}

Was Lucifer the archangel a "Being"?, Was Michael the archangel a "Being"...

...Does SDA theology require "God the Father is a Being"?

...If Christ was the ONLY "BEING" in the universe that could enter into all the councils of "GOD".

...Than in keeping with the Arian Rubric The Father is ONLY God in the ultimate sense.

The Holy Spirit could NOT therefore enter into all the councils of God....

...Because Christ was the ONLY being in the universe which COULD.

...If A = B and B = C than A = C / the Holy Spirit is NOT God.

You make the claim that for Ellen White, the Holy Spirit is not God. But that is clearly false because she says over and over again that the Holy Spirit is God. How can the "third person of the Godhead" not be God? And also, how can this "third person of the Godhead"-- the Holy Spirit-- not be a person?

Can you explain?

Check out these statements:

Quote:

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

Under the Holy Spirit's working even the weakest,

50

by exercising faith in God, learned to improve their entrusted powers and to become sanctified, refined, and ennobled. As in humility they submitted to the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness of the Godhead and were fashioned in the likeness of the divine. {AA 49.3}

The Holy Spirit was the highest of all gifts that He could solicit from His Father for the exaltation of His people. The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church. {DA 671.2}

[John317]

...Than in keeping with the Arian Rubric The Father is ONLY God in the ultimate sense.

This cannot be true, since Ellen White writes that "Christ is God, essentailly, and IN THE HIGHEST SENSE." That can only mean that there is no one who is God in a higher sense than Christ is.

She also speaks many times of Christ as equal to the Father. Of course the Bible agrees.

Have you read those quotes before?

Check this out, friend Gustave:

Quote:

Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5}

He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. {FLB 46.6}

"The Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). Before men or angels were created, the Word was with God, and was God. {LHU 16.2}

The world was made by Him, "and without Him was not any thing made that was made" (verse 3). If Christ made all things, He existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. {LHU 16.3}

The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father.

I think those passages are very clear that Christ is God in the highest sense and that He existed with the eternal God from ALL eternity. Christ, then, is indeed God over all, blessed forevermore. He is not inferior in any way to the Father.

[John317]

My good friend, Dr. Waite, why are you playing all those games with words when you have all the clear statements by God's prophet that "the eternal Godhead" consists of the "three holiest persons of heaven," which she calls a "heavenly trio," and then says that the Holy Spirit is a divine person, a distinct personality, and that He is the fullness of the Godhead?

Does the eternal Godhead change? Does the eternal Godhead get added to or someone removed from it? What do you think?

Tell me: who are the "three great powers of heaven [who] are working" for our salvation, according to Evangelism p. 615?

Would that be the same as "the three persons" of the Godhead?

And how can the third person of the Godhead be either NOT God or NOT a person?

[Dr. Waite]

John:

What I think or what is my opinion DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is what the Word of God states. EGW states: "But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or deductions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as the churches they represent, the voice of the majority, -- not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support." GC 595.

Who did Christ our example say is God? What is His doctrine or teaching on this subject? Did He say that God is a "unity of three co-eternal persons? I cannot find a plain "Thus saith the Lord" to support this. He always referred to God, and in particular - the only true God, as his Father a singular person. See John 17:3. He always prayed to his Father, the only true God, not to a "unity of three co-eternal persons". Read the whole chapter of John 17.

What should I do with those, like you, who teach something different than what Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, taught? "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." 2 John 9-11.

[BobRyan]

Ellen White specifically says that the Holy Spirit is a person. All three persons of the eternal Godheead are persons and personalities. All three of these "holiest persons of heaven" are individually the fullness of the Godhead.

Please take note of the following paragraphs from Ellen G. White's writings:

Agreed - that much is very clear.

Still I fail to see how this goes against the Nicean.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gordon1]

God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms.

Yes John chapter 17 well describes the doctrine of Christ.

A few twisted quotations from Ellen White cannot refute the weight of evidence found in her work, nor supplant the Bible record.

[LifeHiscost]

He gave up that form of God forever because of His love for us.

Both the Father and the Son are omnipresent by the Holy Spirit. The Son is no longer in the form of God but by His own choice He is limited to a glorified and immortal human body.

I have no doubt, as the Word gives the record that Jesus gave up His attributes of being fully God when He took upon Himself humanity. However I find no Scripture that states as fact, that Jesus did not take back after His glorification, all of the attributes He had prior to His incarnation, including that of judgment along with His glorified humanity taken at the resurrection.

"For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing. In fact, the Father will show Him how to do even greater works than healing this man. Then you will truly be astonished. For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead, so the Son gives life to anyone he wants. In addition, the Father judges no one. Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge, so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life."John 5:20-24 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

I think it is a tough thing for humans to describe God. We can only think human.

I do know this "The Lord Our God Is One Lord"

And that without equivocation.

God blesses!

[Gustave]

Gustave seems to be making a lot of unfounded accusations but without substance. It makes it look rather silly. (like he is trying very hard to condemn both EgW and SDAs) It must be frustrating for him. At least I do sense some frustration.

Perhaps out of the frustration will come some good and he will become converted and join the church.

[John317]

John:

What I think or what is my opinion DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is what the Word of God states. EGW states: "But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or deductions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as the churches they represent, the voice of the majority, -- not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support." GC 595.

But there is no contradiction between the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, is there?

You have quoted her on this topic, but when I quote her, you imply that the Bible says something different than the SOP (i.e., Ellen g. White's writings). The truth is that both the Bible and Ellen White agree on the subject of the Godhead.

I did not quote her on this thread in order for her writings to take the place of the Bible. I quoted her because it was being argued that Ellen White did not teach that Christ is God or that the Holy Spirit is a person. I have proved otherwise.

Do you still maintain that Ellen White taught that Christ is not God and that the Holy Spirit is not a divine person, the third person of the Godhead, one of the three great powers of heaven?

Gustave and I both agree that the Bible clearly teaches the Trinity. So there is no use debating whether the Bible teaches the Trinity. That is a topic for another discussion.

[John317]

Malachi 3:6 The Lord does NOT change.

Hebrews 13:8 Christ is the SAME yeserday, to day and FOREVER.

It is obvious that those verses can't be used to show that Christ does not change in any way, since we all agree that Christ changed from being fully God to being the God-man, and fully human.

Clearly, then, those verses you quote signify that God and Christ do not change in their character, in their purposes, and in their essence. They don't mean that Christ absolutely has never changed at all. A major change was that of becoming man. In doing so, He became something that He never was before.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Gustave seems to be making a lot of unfounded accusations but without substance. It makes it look rather silly. (like he is trying very hard to condemn both EgW and SDAs) It must be frustrating for him. At least I do sense some frustration.

Perhaps out of the frustration will come some good and he will become converted and join the church.

What I've posted so far are not accusations Woody, they are simply the facts why Adventists don't accept the Creed...

...Because the Creed lays anathema on any who teach Christ "was mutable".

...This alien teaching that Christ could mutate IS the Adventist Creed.

But Gustave, you have already demonstrated in many of your posts that you aren't knowledgeable in SDA history. Nor do you correctly state Ellen White's positions. Therefore people have lost confidence in your conclusions as well as in your ability to state objectively what Ellen White taught or what the SDA church believes.

To be frank with you, we don't care what the creed says. We put absolutely no authority at all in those creeds. They are for us of historical interest only.

What we care about, first and foremost, is what the Bible teaches, and secondarily, what Ellen White teaches. She has far greater authority in my-- and in the SDA church's-- eyes than any creed invented by the Catholic church or by any other church. Even a creed written by the SDA church has no meaning if it does not agree with the Scripture. Your posts here prove the rightness of this position.

[John317]

John317, should you not believe me and would like to see more proof simply ask....

...Dr. Waite was being honest with you when he said neither the Pioneers nor Ellen White believed the Holy Spirit had a rectum ( Personality ).

You gotta be kidding, Gustave and Dr. Waite.

Ellen White wrote directly that the Holy Spirit is "a person," a "divine person," and a "distinct personality."

What God is like in Himself, apart from His self-revelation, we simply do not know. We only know what He has revealed about Himself, through Christ, and we know nothing about what the Father's body is like, except that He does have a body. But no one has seen God's body, except that Moses saw God's backside (Ex. 33: 23). He is invisible to human eyes (1 Tim. 1: 17; Heb. 11: 27). The same with the Holy Spirit. It is wrong to even discuss that aspect of God. It is pure conjecture. "Silence is golden" on things God has not seen fit to reveal to us, as Ellen White said.