Persistence In Open Sin

[John317]

Christ's servants are grieved as they see true and false believers mingled in the church. They long to do something to cleanse the church. Like the servants of the householder, they are ready to uproot the tares. But Christ says to them, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest." {COL 71.2}

Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church, but He has not committed to us the work of judging character and motive. He knows our nature too well to entrust this work to us. Should we try to uproot from the church those whom we suppose to be spurious Christians, we should be sure to make mistakes. Often we regard as hopeless subjects the very ones whom Christ is drawing to Himself.

Were we to deal with these souls according to our imperfect judgment, it would perhaps extinguish their last hope. Many who think themselves Christians will at last be found wanting. Many will be in heaven who their neighbors supposed would never enter there. Man judges from appearance, but God judges the heart. The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. {COL 71.3}

There is in the Saviour's words another lesson, a lesson of wonderful forbearance and tender love. As the tares have their roots closely intertwined with those of the good grain, so false brethren in the church may be closely linked with true disciples. The real character of these pretended believers is not fully manifested. Were they to be separated from the church, others might be caused to stumble, who but for this would have remained steadfast. {COL 72.1}

The teaching of this parable is illustrated in God's own dealing with men and angels. Satan is a deceiver. When he sinned in heaven, even the loyal angels did not fully discern his character. This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God. A doubt of God's goodness would have been as evil seed that would yield the bitter fruit of sin and woe. Therefore the author of evil was spared, fully to develop his character. Through long ages God has borne the anguish of beholding the work of evil, He has given the infinite Gift of Calvary, rather than leave any to be deceived by the misrepresentations of the wicked one; for the tares could not be plucked up without danger of uprooting the precious grain. And shall we not be as forbearing toward our fellow men as the Lord of heaven and earth is toward Satan? {COL 72.2}

The world has no right to doubt the truth of Christianity

73

because there are unworthy members in the church, nor should Christians become disheartened because of these false brethren. How was it with the early church? Ananias and Sapphira joined themselves to the disciples. Simon Magus was baptized. Demas, who forsook Paul, had been counted a believer. Judas Iscariot was numbered with the apostles. The Redeemer does not want to lose one soul; His experience with Judas is recorded to show His long patience with perverse human nature; and He bids us bear with it as He has borne. He has said that false brethren will be found in the church till the close of time.

[Woody]

Being sinless is simple.

The only way one can be sinless is to ask Jesus for the power.

And since He is always willing to answer our prayers.

If you ask - He will answer-

And you will be sinless.

If you ask-

And you aren't sinless-

You are no longer responsible.

It is then His fault and not yours.

It therefore must not be His will or else His answer is to wait.

But all one can do is to pray for His will. And to believe it has been answered. However whatever the answer - one can be assured that they are 'perfect' in Him still.

Thank you Jesus.

[ClubV12]

Being persistent in open sin would indicate your not asking Jesus to overcome. Or you have come under the influence of a "strong delusion" whereby you are able to justify your actions. Which are in plain view to others, but not yourself. The nature of sin is often a condition where you don't really WANT to overcome, we like sin!

Regardless of whether you are or are not deluded, or asking sincerely for help, at some point the church does have a responsibility to the larger community to address the situation. Following the guidelines for addressing it as specified in the bible (clairified by the church manual). If not, the standards of membership drop to such a low level as to have no real meaning. To the community, church, town, neighborhood, the civil community as well as the church community.

Woody, what action, if any, would you recommend for a member who persistantly, consistently, openly works on the sabbath (violates a clear condition of sabbath keeping)? We can assume for this example the member is working a job that cannot be justified in any reasonable way, such as hospital work, firefighter, etc.

[Woody]

Quote:

If not, the standards of membership drop to such a low level as to have no real meaning.

It has no meaning anyways as far as the holiness of the members. Give up man.

Quote:

Woody, what action, if any, would you recommend for a member who persistantly, consistently, openly works on the sabbath (violates a clear condition of sabbath keeping)? We can assume for this example the member is working a job that cannot be justified in any reasonable way, such as hospital work, firefighter, etc.

I would recommend giving up on the idea of membership or redefining the meaning. Making the idea of the membership being pure is a hopeless idea. We have no business judging members. Membership should mean that people have indicated they are sinners in love with Jesus. Period.

[ClubV12]

Ok, I think I understand your position. Members, of the Seventh Day Adventist church should not be disciplined or removed under any circumstances.

Having been a member of various groups through out my life, I can assure you, most of them do in fact have minimal standards and you will be subject to loosing your membership if you don't meet them.

I'm a former member of SCCA. While that group won't take away your membership, they will NOT let you race in a sanctioned event without meeting certain minimum standards. One of which is as simple as the OTHER MEMBERS/DRIVERS simply saying they don't "trust you" on the track. They don't even need a reason, if they don't trust you to run with them at a 100+ mph, inches from their car, they don't need to give a reason. If two or three of them say that, your out, game over, you can't race, period.

I always chuckle when I hear about christians "running the good race". Something I'm learning about... :)

[Musicman1228]

Who cares if we persist in committing sin, open or secret? What does it matter if we are not saved by works but saved by grace? Are not our sins, our filthy rags, covered by the robe of Christ's righteousness such that when the Father looks at us what He sees is the righteousness of Christ?

As long as you 'say' or 'claim' that you are saved by the blood of the Lamb it doesn't matter what sins you commit, and continue to commit, as long as you don't commit a sin against the Holy Spirit. After all, no one is capable of NOT sinning. We are all sinners and we have all fallen short of the glory of God, and we will continue to do this in spite of our best efforts and that of the Holy Spirit. There is nothing we can do to NOT sin, and to say otherwise denies the saving work that Jesus did on our behalf, because Jesus overcame sin so that we don't have to.

Jesus is my PERSONAL Savior, and there is nothing I can do to tear myself away from the love and salvation which is in Christ Jesus. My sins don't matter when placed against love which sets me free in Jesus.

This is true, isn't it?

[Gail]

Being sinless is simple.

The only way one can be sinless is to ask Jesus for the power.

And since He is always willing to answer our prayers.

If you ask - He will answer-

And you will be sinless.

If you ask-

And you aren't sinless-

You are no longer responsible.

It is then His fault and not yours.

It therefore must not be His will or else His answer is to wait.

But all one can do is to pray for His will. And to believe it has been answered. However whatever the answer - one can be assured that they are 'perfect' in Him still.

Thank you Jesus.

Personally I don't think that will work. Asking for strength is not really the answer. Just ask anyone who's tried that.

God has not only provided for forgiveness of sin but He's done more than that. He's provided a whole new birth. The Bible calls it being "transformed by the renewing of your mind", "having the mind of Christ" or "putting on the new man". It is a complete dying to self.

When God replaces your thoughts with His, THEN watch what happens. You will not stay in open sin and you will not want to, either.

[ClubV12]

"My sins don't matter when placed against love which sets me free in Jesus.

This is true, isn't it?"

I wonder if the children of Israel thought something to that affect as well? So, idol worship? No problem! Well, we all know how THAT turned out. :)

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Being sinless is simple.

The only way one can be sinless is to ask Jesus for the power.

And since He is always willing to answer our prayers.

If you ask - He will answer-

And you will be sinless.

If you ask-

And you aren't sinless-

You are no longer responsible.

It is then His fault and not yours.

It therefore must not be His will or else His answer is to wait.

But all one can do is to pray for His will. And to believe it has been answered. However whatever the answer - one can be assured that they are 'perfect' in Him still.

Thank you Jesus.

Personally I don't think that will work. Asking for strength is not really the answer. Just ask anyone who's tried that.

God has not only provided for forgiveness of sin but He's done more than that. He's provided a whole new birth. The Bible calls it being "transformed by the renewing of your mind", "having the mind of Christ" or "putting on the new man". It is a complete dying to self.

When God replaces your thoughts with His, THEN watch what happens. You will not stay in open sin and you will not want to, either.

Cool Gail. That sounds good. I've just never seen it happen. Those that claim it has happened ... I've personally observed them to be the biggest gossips in town. And if that isn't the most destructive open sin there is ... I give up.

Honestly Gail. It does sound nice. But I don't know of any sinless peoples. Just ask anyone who's tried it. Those of us who have experienced the new birth and I include myself ... still openly sin. And this "open Sin" classification I really resent. Sin is sin. And I would rather see people sin in open than in secret. IOWs I prefer honest people rather than people who are deceitful..

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

What about people who are sincere and want to quit doing whatever it is that's wrong, and ask for God's help, but they keep slipping and falling? They get criticized for not having enough faith, not "trying hard enough," and not really meaning what they say.

re: sinning in the "open"....reminds me of my grandma, who used to sit at her kitchen window with binoculars and watch everyone's actions in the neighborhood.. nothing was secret with her around...

[Gail]

Woody, I'm gonna tell you again- Stop looking at yours or anyone else's performance! Then you might have something to praise God FOR

Any and every victory over temptation is a reason to praise God. The Bible gives hope to those who are under bondage and captivity to sin and you might, too, if you set your eyes on Jesus every time you feel like focusing on what you see God not doing instead of what He might be doing if you had more information and could see things through His eyes.

Courage, my dear brother! With Jesus we have a Helper AND Advocate!

[Woody]

Quote:

Asking for strength is not really the answer. Just ask anyone who's tried that.

Okay. Instead of using my eyes - I will use my ears.

Whoops that hasn't worked either. Everyone I've asked if being converted has made them holy ... has said no.

I'll stick with asking God for power and letting Him decide what is meant for me.

But then you and I may have different goals. Perfection is not my goal. Getting to know Jesus and letting His purpose be fulfilled in my life - IS my goal.

I will sin till I die.

That is fact. Unlike the lies of some here on this forum regarding my beliefs - I do not "plan" to sin. But I WILL sin.

This perfection bit is just a sly tactic of the Devil. Don't buy into it peoples.

[Gail]

I am thinking that our idea of perfection may not be God's...

What do you make of the Biblical injunction to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect? Or the Biblical counsels towards obedience? Does God want us to live in abject misery because we cannot appease Him?

But a spirit of rebellion is different than stumbling; an attitude of loyalty than that of treason.

I think that it is truly more difficult to be lost than to stay joined to Jesus. It's up to what you want. There is a reason that Christians have joy in their current lives.

[Gail]

Quote:

That is fact. Unlike the lies of some here on this forum regarding my beliefs - I do not "plan" to sin. But I WILL sin.

Don't worry yourself about trying to tell the future. Leave it all in Jesus' hands. Let Him carry you always, not matter what you do.

[Woody]

Quote:

That is fact. Unlike the lies of some here on this forum regarding my beliefs - I do not "plan" to sin. But I WILL sin.

Don't worry yourself about trying to tell the future. Leave it all in Jesus' hands. Let Him carry you always, not matter what you do.

My response Gail is directed towards those who say I must be perfect in order to be saved.

I am with you very much on what you have said in this post. Three thumbs up.

[Woody]

I am thinking that our idea of perfection may not be God's...

What do you make of the Biblical injunction to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect? Or the Biblical counsels towards obedience? Does God want us to live in abject misery because we cannot appease Him?

But a spirit of rebellion is different than stumbling; an attitude of loyalty than that of treason.

I think that it is truly more difficult to be lost than to stay joined to Jesus. It's up to what you want. There is a reason that Christians have joy in their current lives.

Yes. I agree with your post here also. Good comments.

I think perfection is sorely misunderstood.

He wants us perfect in LOVE not actions. The actions will be made right at the second coming when He changes us.

[Gail]

Quote:

Yes. I agree with your post here also. Good comments.

I think perfection is sorely misunderstood.

He wants us perfect in LOVE not actions. The actions will be made right at the second coming when He changes us.

And He will free you from whatever's making your life miserable even before that happens. Your sinful life will continually try to resurrect itself but offer it to Jesus when it does. He won't leave you comfortless is the promise.

There is something about love that does not want to hurt another, and there is something about a relationship with God that makes sin abhorrent. I totally agree with you about the love part. It is the key! And love will bring about actions. It's not a checklist, but a heart attitude. And it is something that grows as it is fed.

We will always grow- the walk with our Lord only gets better as it progresses. It is a life of joy and praise in spite of trial :)

[ClubV12]

"Who cares if we persist in committing sin, open or secret?"

Musicman, I care, and I say that in a spirit of love for the church, the people in the church and how they might be impacted by "open sin" if it is allowed to continue.

Secret sin is another matter, it's a secret, the church cannot no for sure or may not even be aware of the impact for good or bad it may have on others because it's "secret".

If your hanging out in the parking lot on Sabbath drinking beer, persistently, it would be rather foolish to think myself and many others "would not care". I gaurentee you some action would and should be taken to stop you.

[Woody]

Quote:

If your hanging out in the parking lot on Sabbath drinking beer, persistently, it would be rather foolish to think myself and many others "would not care". I gaurentee you some action would and should be taken to stop you.

My church has not had this happen. But we have had members smoking in the parking lot. We do nothing but to pray for them.

[Sonny]

To all,

The problem with most all theologies on CA is that they produce insecurity. We need to realize that "in Christ" we stand perfect now and in the judgment. Until everyone accepts this no growth will happen - all we'll produce is works based in iniquity.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

To all,

The problem with most all theologies on CA is that they produce insecurity. We need to realize that "in Christ" we stand perfect now and in the judgment. Until everyone accepts this no growth will happen - all we'll produce is works based in iniquity.

That doesn't make sense. If one is perfect, why would there be any need for growth?

"works based in iniquity".... what an odd turn of a phrase..

[Ambassador]

I can't speak for Sonny, but perhaps he is suggesting perfection in the sense of Christ's robe of righteousness covering our sins. In a sense this satisfies both qualifications, it makes us righteous while leaning on Christ to become righteous. This incorporation can only be accomplished through surrender and submission to Christ. Growth and salvation cannot be done without him.

Christ is the all in all. There is no way out besides him. With him we are perfect before the Father at all times. This assumes of course that we are willing to continue our journey of faith, continually submitting to his revealed will, and stepping when the path has been opened to us.

Therefore perfection is something we of ourselves will never in our wildest dreams be capable of. It is not possible. That is, without Christ. God requires perfect obedience this is true, for there can be no other option. His law, his character, require it. Yet simply because Christ died we can by faith become righteous now, and forever. This is such simple, such beautiful news. It makes me smile inside.

It should make the days easier. Since the more we submit, and humble ourselves the more we become a living representative of his grace. While Christ is living his life out in us, he is also representing his merits on our behalf before Jehovah! How much better can it get!? Thus When Jesus' kids become so like him and his father that there is no difference, then the end will come. For what more proof is needed of those watching that God's way is supreme.

So what can I say, but PRAISE GOD!

Blessings, Jerad

[Sonny]

That doesn't make sense. If one is perfect, why would there be any need for growth?

[phkrause]

What about people who are sincere and want to quit doing whatever it is that's wrong, and ask for God's help, but they keep slipping and falling? They get criticized for not having enough faith, not "trying hard enough," and not really meaning what they say.

re: sinning in the "open"....reminds me of my grandma, who used to sit at her kitchen window with binoculars and watch everyone's actions in the neighborhood.. nothing was secret with her around...

Good question rudywoofs. Its also a good thing that God judges us. I recall a pastor once mentioned that its the direction ours lives are going.

[Musicman1228]

I honestly cannot believe what I am reading on this thread. It is evident that there are two separate and distinct gospels at work here, and only one is true

I wrote in my earlier post on this thread a synopsis of one gospel that seems to be what most people on this thread believe to be true:

[As long as you 'say' or 'claim' that you are saved by the blood of the Lamb it doesn't matter what sins you commit, and continue to commit, as long as you don't commit a sin against the Holy Spirit. After all, no one is capable of NOT sinning. We are all sinners and we have all fallen short of the glory of God, and we will continue to do this in spite of our best efforts and that of the Holy Spirit. There is nothing we can do to NOT sin, and to say otherwise denies the saving work that Jesus did on our behalf, because Jesus overcame sin so that we don't have to.]

I did this in a tongue-in-cheek manner in order to show my disgust for this type of shoddy thinking not really believing that most believe this gospel to be true. I was sadly mistaken. Those who believe this gospel and it's ilk believe a gospel that is a lie and a deception. JESUS NEVER TAUGHT ANYTHING LIKE THIS to His own disciples.

Jesus never taught that His robe of righteousness would cover our filthy rags. He never taught that continuing in sin was acceptable to enter the Kingdom of God. He never taught it would be impossible for anyone to attain to righteousness even with the power of the Holy Spirit guiding us into truth. jesus never said that we can become a family member of God and still retain sin in our lives. He never said that the 10 Commandments don't apply to our salvation. He never said that the 'law and the prophets' are done away with.

And in spite of this many believe that even though Jesus never taught any of this it is what He actually meant to teach. They believe that although He did not teach this to His own disciples that after He ascended to Heaven He changed His mind and His gospel of the Kingdom into the gospel of the personal savior as described above. He did this because He realized that His original plan was faulty and could not work so He had to come up with an alternate plan so that He could save EVERYONE who would simply believe on Him. (God's plans are NEVER faulty, they are always perfect. If they are not then He isn't God.)

And this idea that God changed His mind and established a 'different' gospel through another 'apostle' is also a lie and a deception. Jesus even pointed out that this would occur to His own disciples and that they must 'not be deceived' by apostles and prophets preaching this kind of gospel (Matt. 24:4 among others).

Your choice is clear; either abide in and believe the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as He gave them to His own eyewitness disciples, or believe an 'apostle' that preaches a 'different' gospel than the one that Jesus taught to His own disciples. There is no middle ground here, it is either one or the other. Choose wisely, because in your choice rests your eternal life.