Persistence In Open Sin

[Sonny]

He [Jesus] never said that the 10 Commandments don't apply to our salvation.

Doesn't it make your human nature proud to know that your law keeping can gain you credit towards your ticket to heaven?

[ClubV12]

Keeping the law is the best way to live a full life and avoid many of the pitt falls that we are prone to stumble into. The law is our protection, it's very basis is love. Not only the 10, but many of the laws of Moses, which are actually a wider and down to earth application of the 10. Like the 10, many of the laws of Moses are not only good for us individually, but good for society. If the laws are a burden, seen as oppressive, we have missed the point.

David had an interesting take on it. Oh, how he delighted in the law!! He got it, it made perfect sense. If in the process of keeping the law it also draws us closer to Jesus and has an impact on perfecting character, thats icing on the cake.

[Gail]

What about people who are sincere and want to quit doing whatever it is that's wrong, and ask for God's help, but they keep slipping and falling? They get criticized for not having enough faith, not "trying hard enough," and not really meaning what they say.

re: sinning in the "open"....reminds me of my grandma, who used to sit at her kitchen window with binoculars and watch everyone's actions in the neighborhood.. nothing was secret with her around...

Slipping and falling is not the same as open rebellion. Psalm 51:17 says, "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

and:

Quote:

Psalm 34:18-The LORD is nigh (near) unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite (humbled) spirit.

When a soul is struggling it is in a far different position than a stubborn, rebellious one. It often FEELS like God is nowhere around, but the Bible says that that is the time when He is nigh, right beside you.

The difference is what we do when we do fall. Bring it to Jesus, whatever it is. It is not by asking for strength that we make it. I have talked to too many people who know by experience (as well as myself) that you could very well be setting yourself up for failure that way.

To be continued...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

That doesn't make sense. If one is perfect, why would there be any need for growth?

We are perfect, not in ourselves, but "in Christ Jesus"

But is someone "in Christ" simply because they make the claim?

The purpose of the Investigative Judgment is to show who is really "in Christ" and who is making false claims?

Who really has on the robe of Christ's righteousness, and who does not have it on?

The robe consists of both the imputed and the imparted righteousness of Chrsit.

[Gail]

I do believe that it can be a struggle also to give up something that the heart would rather hang on to, or a habit that has been ingrained for a long time.

But Jesus came to bring deliverance to the captives, and that means you and me and everyone. it wouldn't be very loving to promise something and then not give it when needed!

[Gail]

EGW talks about "appropriating" the merits of Christ to oneself. What that means is making the promises and provisions of God YOURS by faith.

I mean this in its deepest sense, not merely a verbal affirmation of truth.

That is living by God's word as if it is true and real to you. Some of that comes through the conversion experience, the new birth, having the mind of Christ, etc. and is what the Holy Spirit does within you. Some of it is belief that brings about repentance and the hunger and thirst for spiritual things.

I have a feeling that as simple as the idea of salvation is, that it is also so profound that it is the reason we will not tire of pondering the theme all through eternity.

But I also think that as SDA in general we don't discuss the subject of our spiritual living as often or profoundly as we should. In most cases it is narrowed only to law-keeping, instead of unity with God and walking with Him and viewing the world as He views it and loving the world as He loves it.

[karl]

But I also think that as SDA in general we don't discuss the subject of our spiritual living as often or profoundly as we should. In most cases it is narrowed only to law-keeping, instead of unity with God and walking with Him and viewing the world as He views it and loving the world as He loves it.

I agree with you 100%. Keeping the ten commandments is avoiding the negatives. You could lock yourself in a closet and have someone bring you food and accomplish the avoidance of the negatives. But Jesus said He came that we might have LIFE and have it more abundantly. The fruits of the Spirit totally transcend the avoidance of negatives. The law is just there to show us that we need the Spirit in us. The goal here is to get Christ IN us via the Holy Spirit. We talk WAY too much of being covered. The hope of glory is Christ IN you, not ON you.

What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost...?"

[teresaq]

...

But I also think that as SDA in general we don't discuss the subject of our spiritual living as often or profoundly as we should. In most cases it is narrowed only to law-keeping, instead of unity with God and walking with Him and viewing the world as He views it and loving the world as He loves it.

And yet, the both have come to mean the same to me.

On another note, it is so easy to get into the "head-knowledge" and completely miss the boat. :(

[Gail]

I think I've mentioned this before somewhere but Oswald Chambers described it nicely in his book, Christian Disciplines.

He talks about three degrees of understanding that comes with God's word, the Bible:

1) It reads like a book of facts, geneaology, history, wisdom. The reading is superficial and interesting but not life-changing.

2) The Holy Spirit opens the eyes of the reader. Those words suddenly become life! They are guidance and comfort and power which cut to the very soul and fill the heart with praise and thankgiving. This is what fills our spiritual thirst and hunger.

3) Through persecution the meaning deepens as we share in the sufferings of our Lord. We endure pain and sorrow at the hands of our friends, but through it we learn the real meaning of patience. We learn to give thanks through and for and in everything, knowing and trusting that God is Sovereign.

The person walking with Jesus is able to praise God more profusely as the experience deepens.

I think there may be a similar path in the other disciplines, such as prayer and meditating on Jesus' life.

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Gail

...

But I also think that as SDA in general we don't discuss the subject of our spiritual living as often or profoundly as we should. In most cases it is narrowed only to law-keeping, instead of unity with God and walking with Him and viewing the world as He views it and loving the world as He loves it.

And yet, the both have come to mean the same to me.

On another note, it is so easy to get into the "head-knowledge" and completely miss the boat.

Yes- exactly- on both points!

Re: the head knowledge- I like to liken it to a "vertical" knowledge and a "horizontal" one. The vertical is learning the theology of "how" it works, and the horizontal is putting it into practice- to actually experience it as real in your own life.

Thank you so much, teresaq and Karl, for saying what I want so hard to express but it's so big that it's difficult.

[Sonny]

The law is our protection, it's very basis is love.

No, Christ is our protection.... He came to save us from "the curse of the law".

[Sonny]

The robe consists of both the imputed and the imparted righteousness of Christ.

The robe in heaven has not one thread of human devising. That's EGW of course. We are saved by the imputed righteousness of Christ. The evidence is agape in the life. Without agape all our law keeping, if you will, is in reality iniquity. Agape in the life of the believer is the imparted righteousness of Christ.

[ClubV12]

Ha Ha, Semantics Sonny.

The law is the character of Christ in written form. Understanding the principles and how wonderfully they can work within one's life is to know Him.

The curse of the law is that some still see the burden of the law. They see it as an unattainable goal, fraught with boobie traps. They strive, try, work, to keep it and then worry when they can't.

I want to be more like David, see the beauty, the love in it, delight in it. I want to keep it because I want more of the character of Christ in my life. I want to keep it not so I gain a position in heaven but because THIS is the best way to live ones life.

Think about it, what one of the ten laws would make life easier if we didn't have it? Which one or more would be good to throw out because it is to hard to keep?

Throw out the 4th, the 7th, the 3rd? It's all, literally, good.

[Sonny]

The curse of the law is that some still see the burden of the law. They see it as an unattainable goal, fraught with boobie traps. They strive, try, work, to keep it and then worry when they can't.

No, the curse of the law is the 2nd death because in your life you exhibit the love of self. If God took any of us to heaven now, in our present state, heaven would become hell.

[Sonny]

Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous by faith will live." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will by them live." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. 15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

[Gail]

I want to be more like David, see the beauty, the love in it, delight in it. I want to keep it because I want more of the character of Christ in my life. I want to keep it not so I gain a position in heaven but because THIS is the best way to live ones life.

Looks as though someone has been reading the Psalms! Keep it up!

Psalms 119 never ceases to amaze me. It is full of blessing, not cursing. I'll take more blessing, please!

[karl]

Gal 3:10-25 .... Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

It's REAL easy to misinterpret this passage. I suggest a careful comparison with many other Scriptures in order to get the true meaning.

Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God’s law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live holy lives.

Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment.

2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Gal 3:10-25 .... Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

It's REAL easy to misinterpret this passage. I suggest a careful comparison with many other Scriptures in order to get the true meaning.

Unless you are living Christ's life - a life where He "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself", you better not be "under the supervision of the law." Why? The law requires perfect, unblemished obedience. As EGW states, He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

So we aren't under law, but that doesn't mean we aren't growing in grace. Again, EGW:

There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit [attitude] as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . [LHU 325]

Growing away from selfishness is not being sinless. The law requires perfection, not partial perfection. So again, Paul is right...we have been delivered from the law:

Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died [in Christ - see verse 4] to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

[karl]

Unless you are living Christ's life - a life where He "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself", you better not be "under the supervision of the law." ...

The law requires perfection, not partial perfection. So again, Paul is right...we have been delivered from the law:

The fallback argument against the law is always "Are you perfect?"

There is nothing wrong with the law. It is still doing the same job it has always done - telling us when and where we need to draw nearer to Christ.

Our choices are: Universalism, Calvinism, or cooperation. I believe salvation is a cooperative work between God and man. We do nothing that merits salvation, but without our cooperation, we cannot be saved. God cannot confess, repent, submit or believe FOR us. The law points us to areas in which we need to have self crucified - areas in which we need to confess, repent, submit, and believe. This cooperation with the salvific work of God through the prompting of the Holy Spirit is mandatory for our salvation.

God's Law is still very much in effect, pointing us to areas of cooperation with He Who is able to complete the work He has begun in us.

[John317]

Being sinless is simple.

The only way one can be sinless is to ask Jesus for the power.

And since He is always willing to answer our prayers.

If you ask - He will answer-

And you will be sinless.

If you ask-

And you aren't sinless-

You are no longer responsible.

It is then His fault and not yours.

It therefore must not be His will or else His answer is to wait.

But all one can do is to pray for His will. And to believe it has been answered. However whatever the answer - one can be assured that they are 'perfect' in Him still.

Thank you Jesus.

Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. MR 558 (Ms. 122, 1901)

Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}

Our lives may seem a tangle; but as we commit ourselves to the wise Master Worker, He will bring out the pattern of life and character that will be to His own glory. And that character which expresses the glory--character--of Christ, will be received into the Paradise of God. {Mar 224.4}

Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {Mar 224.5}

[John317]

...Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died [in Christ - see verse 4] to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

"Having been delivered from the law" doesn't mean believers are free to disoeby God's moral law.

Living under God's grace does not excuse people's sins. See Romans 6: 1-2, 15.

Romans 7:12

So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

People who really love Christ will not take advantage of His love but will be even more careful to obey His commandments because of His grace.

[John317]

The subject is "persistence in open sin." It is completely different from falling short of God's glory. Falling short of God's glory is not rebellion, but persistent in open sin is.

EGW:

Quote:

The ordinance of the Lord's Supper was given to commemorate the great deliverance wrought out as the result of the death of Christ. Till He shall come the second time in power and glory, this ordinance is to be celebrated. It is the means by which His great work for us is to be kept fresh in our minds. {CCh 298.3}

Christ's example forbids exclusiveness at the Lord's Supper. It is true that open sin excludes the guilty. This the Holy Spirit plainly teaches. 1 Corinthians 5:11. But beyond this none are to pass judgment. God has not left it with men to say who shall present themselves on these occasions. For who can read the heart? Who can distinguish the tares from the wheat? "Let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup." For "whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." "He that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." 1 Corinthians 11:28, 27, 29. {CCh 298.4}

Every sin is an offense against God and is to be confessed to Him through Christ. Every open sin should be as openly confessed. Wrong done to a fellow being should be made right with the one who has been offended. If any who are seeking health have been guilty of evilspeaking, if they have sowed discord in the home, the neighborhood, or the church, and have stirred up alienation and dissension, if by any wrong practice they have led others into sin, these things should be confessed before God and before those who have been offended. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. {CCh 304.4}

[Sonny]

There is nothing wrong with the law. It is still doing the same job it has always done - telling us when and where we need to draw nearer to Christ.

Where does the law state that it is to draw you near to Christ?

[Sonny]

The subject is "persistence in open sin." It is completely different from falling short of God's glory. Falling short of God's glory is not rebellion, but persistent in open sin is.

According to the law falling short is sin. That's because the law requires perfection. Are we then under the law, John?

[Sonny]

"Having been delivered from the law" doesn't mean believers are free to disobey God's moral law.

"The law of Jehovah is exceedingly broad. Jesus . . . plainly declared to His disciples that this holy law of God may be violated in even the thoughts and feelings and desires, as well as in the word and deed." [EGW]

Doing the right thing for the wrong motive is sin. Doing anything outside agape is sin. In order not to sin everything you do must be free of all self-interest and self-seeking. All business transactions...all dealings with all people must be free of these "thoughts and feelings"

Break one (and remember that the law is spiritual) you've broken them all.