Persistence In Open Sin

[John317]

Originally Posted By: karl

There is nothing wrong with the law. It is still doing the same job it has always done - telling us when and where we need to draw nearer to Christ.

Where does the law state that it is to draw you near to Christ?

The law is a school-master to lead us to Christ. Gal. 3: 24. It shows us our need of Christ. It convicts us of our sins and shows us our desperate need of forgiveness and cleansing. See Romans 7: 7,8; 1 John 3: 4. It is like a doctor's diagnosis. If we didn't have the law, we wouldn't know our sickness and our need of healing (salvation).

Isn't that what the law of God does for you?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The subject is "persistence in open sin." It is completely different from falling short of God's glory. Falling short of God's glory is not rebellion, but persistent in open sin is.

According to the law falling short is sin. That's because the law requires perfection. Are we then under the law, John?

As Gerry and I have told you for a number of years now-- but which you still don't seem to get-- the "falling short of God's glory" will never of itself lead to people's condemnation and loss of eternal life. Falling short of God's glory is unavoidable for mankind, including Spirit-filled believers.

"Persistence in open sin," however, is not unavoidable, and it will lead to many people being lost.

Are you unable to see the difference between "persistence in open sin" and "falling short of God's glory"?

Are people to be separated from the church for falling short of God's glory? No, of course not, else the church would be completely empty.

But are they to be seperated for persistence in open sin? Certainly. (See first post of the discussion.) Why? Because persistence in open sin is rebellion against God, since it is deliberate choosing to continue practicing sin in public, which brings shame to both Christ and the church in the eyes of all the universe. Therefore if the church does nothing, it appears to be condoning the sinful practice. When this happens, the individual often fails to take his sin seriously and also may conclude that it's no sin at all.

[Sonny]

...deliberate choosing to continue practicing sin in public....

So if I do it privately, then it's not sin. Sin, John, is the love of self. It's manifested a in all sorts of ways. Self-seeking, self-interest...living for self are the essence of sin. Jesus did none of this, ever. Sin is sin.....I am not fully living Christ's life - neither are you. Hence you are deliberately sinning because you are continuing to do these things. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sonny]

The law is a school-master to lead us to Christ. Gal. 3: 24.

Yes, but in the law it doesn't say that....That's my point. The law, in and of itself, requires perfection. Christ uses the law to promote grace. He came to deliver you from under law to under grace. Under grace you grow.....

[Sonny]

Are you unable to see the difference between "persistence in open sin" and "falling short of God's glory"?

Sin is transgression of the law....That's what you tell me. Sin is more than the letter of the law. Sin is also self-seeking & self-interest. Sin is the love of self. None of us are living as or like Christ. Yes, hopefully we are reflecting Christ...if not then our faith is a sham or we are babes in Christ.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...deliberate choosing to continue practicing sin in public....

So if I do it privately, then it's not sin. Sin, John, is the love of self. It's manifested a in all sorts of ways. Self-seeking, self-interest...living for self are the essence of sin. Jesus did none of this, ever. Sin is sin.....I am not fully living Christ's life - neither are you. Hence you are deliberately sinning because you are continuing to do these things. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, you are wrong.

It's like the difference between a woman or a man falling into sin without planning to do it, and they are ashamed of it and ask for forgiveness-- compared to a woman or man jumping into sin with a plan to keep doing it in public without any care for God or church or family. In fact, they might even brag about it, and when they are asked about it, they reply that it is no one's business except their own and they could care less if the whole world knows.

Can you see any difference?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Are you unable to see the difference between "persistence in open sin" and "falling short of God's glory"?

Sin is transgression of the law....That's what you tell me. Sin is more than the letter of the law. Sin is also self-seeking & self-interest. Sin is the love of self. None of us are living as or like Christ. Yes, hopefully we are reflecting Christ...if not then our faith is a sham or we are babes in Christ.

Sure sin has to do with motives and the thoughts. But the point is that by the Holy Spirit and God's grace, people can control their thoughts and motives, right? Are believes forced to sin? Are people sinning just by virtue of being alive and breathing? No. The Bible makes it plain that people are able to stop sinning. No one can compel you to sin. If this is not true, then the Bible is wrong to say that we should cease practing sin. The Bible says, "Do not sin." Are we to answer, "But I must sin. I can't help it"?

Even your friend Jack wrote in his book that with the Spirit, every Christ can resist every temptation to sin.

It is not a sin to be tempted.

[Sonny]

The Bible says, "Do not sin." Are we to answer, "But I must sin. I can't help it"?

Okay, so what you are telling me is that you are living Christ's life fully (He kept His Father's commandments) and now and then you cease to be perfect?

Ellen White:

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

[John317]

Sin is transgression of the law....That's what you tell me.

What does the Bible say?

1 John 3:4-5

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John 3:4-5

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. [5] You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Sin is transgression of the law....That's what you tell me.

What does the Bible say?

1 John 3:4-5

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John 3:4-5

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. [5] You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

Sin is one's bent to self. Iniquity is sin too! You are dealing in one dimension.....

Here read this:

Sin

[Musicman1228]

I don't understand why there is such a big discussion of the Law (the 10 Commandments) between Christians that believe that they are saved by grace? After all 'sin is the transgression of the Law'. Yet Paul says:

For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. Rom. 4:15.

Grace cannot operate where there is Law, therefore it is critical to the Christian that the Law be removed so that grace can provide salvation by faith to all that believe.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Rom 10:4.

Apart from the law, sin lies dead. Rom 7:8

If the Law for righteousness is removed then sin cannot exist because there is no longer a standard against which to measure one's choices. Therefore there is no longer any choice as to whether to DO right or DO wrong, since doing is now moot with respect to righteousness.

How can you 'persist' in sin if there is no longer any sin in which to 'persist'?

[Guest]

MM, you should try to understand the texts, and their context, before you use them to try and prove a falsehood.

How silly does it look for someone to take something they don't understand, and worse, don't even want to understand, and use it to prove something to someone who does understand it?

An understanding that is gained from the leading of the Holy Spirit will always trump an understanding that was formed from sifting through the garbage on the internet.

[Musicman1228]

MM, you should try to understand the texts, and their context, before you use them to try and prove a falsehood.

How silly does it look for someone to take something they don't understand, and worse, don't even want to understand, and use it to prove something to someone who does understand it?

An understanding that is gained from the leading of the Holy Spirit will always trump an understanding that was formed from sifting through the garbage on the internet.

Richard,

I understand PERFECTLY and COMPLETELY the texts that I have used from Paul to show the duplicity in his own personal gospel. If his gospel was from God it would agree with the gospel of the Kingdom as taught by Jesus Christ, and as re-taught by His own eyewitness disciples. It does not agree. You are assuming that I don't understand Paul simply because I disagree with your interpretation of his gospel. That attitude displays the same arrogance that Paul displayed when he was confronted by the disciples of the Jerusalem Assembly for not preaching the same gospel that Jesus preached. His arrogance caused him to say the following, which proves in his own words that his gospel is 'different' than the one that his opposition espoused:

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—   (7) not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.   (8) But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.   (9) As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. Gal. 1:6-9.

These are Paul's own words complaining about the fact that the disciples of the Jerusalem Assembly sent missionaries to follow Paul and expose his error to the churches that Paul founded. This really made Paul angry; so angry that he said that anyone, even an angel from Heaven (who can only tell the truth) that preached a gospel 'different' from his gospel should be cursed. Strong words from a person that was so sure that he was right that he would curse and angel from Heaven if that angel disagreed with him.

I'm sorry, but that goes WAY beyond my ability to justify his words as being the truth.

[Guest]

You don't even understand him as well as I thought you did. And that's saying something. Perhaps you never have understood the writings of Paul, even when you were younger. Maybe that's why you were ready, or in the proccess of leaving the SDA church, when you discovered this "stuff" you believe now?

[phkrause]

You don't even understand him as well as I thought you did. And that's saying something. Perhaps you never have understood the writings of Paul, even when you were younger. Maybe that's why you were ready, or in the proccess of leaving the SDA church, when you discovered this "stuff" you believe now?

I have to agree with that assessment. He needs to read some books of authors that actually have a good understanding of Paul.

[Dr. Rich]

YES! I agree with you Richard! Musicman just doesn't undertand the words of Paul even though he has studied them twice a week for over 17 years. Hmmm? Why anyone would even try to do this is a real question? Can't someone just look at what Paul wrote and simply see the words for themselves? Perhaps what it is alleged what Peter wrote in 2Pet. 3:15 and 16 is true--but huh.... how would Peter have known about this and wrote it here for all of us to read since Peter had died years before all of Paul's letters were made known? Oh well, perhaps I shouldn't be a nit picker. Oh, and how come 1st and 2nd Peter were known as Peter's letters to the Catholic church? And why did Peter have Mark write for him if Peter was such a good writer as we see in 2nd Peter?

And what is so hard to understand when Paul said that apart from the law there was no sin? And are we to believe Paul when he tells us that Jesus saw Peter first and then to the other TWELVE after rising from the grave? And when did Jesus appear to more than 500 brethern at one time? Wouldn't this be important for John or Matthew to tell us this too? Hmmm?

[Dr. Rich]

Yes PK, perhaps Musicman should read books about Paul! How about the little book called "PAUL, a Very Short Introduction" by E. P. Sanders? Oh, never mind, the author probably agrees with Musicman's understanding anyway. And my-oh-my, have you ever seen so many books on Paul.....that is about Paul being a false apostle for sale at the book stores? It appears that many other well known researchers are having a hard time understanding Paul's words!

[Parade Orange]

ummmm whats open sin?

i went a church that took offence at the mother of the family driving the family car to church every sabbath with the father and the two small boys in the back. The church leaders took offence and actually confronted her saying she looks like she is portraying herself as head of the household.

God bless them they still went to that church but learned quickly to be a lil more secretive in their personal family conduct so not to make the others stumble even more or confront her anymore.

we had a lady show up in church saying she was a prophet but we all discountered her cause she wore bright red lipstick. That was a bold in your face with pomegranet color where as if she chose more of a flesh colour people would take her more seriously

what about those two gay guys that keep showing up? they dont live together but they are always seen together around town? They dont sit too close or hold hands or anything but they seem to be really bonded to one another. No man in our church want to befriend them or mentor or disciple or fellowship with them because others will think they are gay too! maybe one of the braver church members should tell them they shouldnt spend so much together cause it looks like open sin.

i saw a sabbath church member in his garage doing some hobbie work! i dont know them but it was pointed out to me as we were visiting some church friends in a another town. It really bothered her that this guy she knows from church was soldering on the sabbath. Is that open sin? the garage door was open!

what about all the meat and cheese eaters!!!! I know many people at church get upset at others and whisper to each other that so and so is sinning! Here openly at church every sabbath eating lasagna with rich gooey piles of cheese. They certainly consider that an offence and even a stunbling block cause it maybe makes them want to defile their temples also. many have underestandibly dont stay for the potluck cause it is hard to deal with.

we have had smokers step outside and of course followed after them educating them that smoking is bad. We have had men get openly upset at young ladies showing a lil more cleavagen or legs. our church attacks open sin when ever it can but for some reason gossipping and greed and pride and hatemongering goes unrebuked.

we also have many in our churches that hold up their opinions on any matter more important that the Holy Scriptures and His Servants.

what should be counted and discounted in our culture today!

its very OPEN here!

[Guest]

It appears that many other well known researchers are having a hard time understanding Paul's words!

That only proves that there are more dumb-a@$%$ in the world than I thought. Maybe you're not so alone after all Rich...

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, like I said before, who needs the words of anyone else other than the words of Jesus Christ given to us by His eyewitnesses as provided for in John 14:26 and 17-17-20 in order to understand how salvation works? Huh?