BobRyan Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 Thanks - that helps us with context. John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
miz3 Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 cardw, Was Hitler an evil person? He reasoned that the world would be better off without the Jews and he gassed millions of them. Why is reason wrong?
cardw Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 cardw, Was Hitler an evil person? He reasoned that the world would be better off without the Jews and he gassed millions of them. Why is reason wrong? Was Thomas Jefferson a good person because he reasoned we would be better off free? Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
cardw Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 cardw, Just answer the Hitler question! NO DODGES! Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
miz3 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Hitler's reasoning skills were not so good since he eventually lost the war and died a horrible death. So he's not exactly the poster child of reason. So your Hitler question really reveals your ignorance and the reason I didn't answer it directly was to avoid this particularly painful revelation You again avoid answering my question. You answered a question I didn't ask. I didn't ask about Hitler's reasoning powers. I asked if you thought Hitler was an evil person? Now answer the question! Stop avoiding and deflecting in areas I was never asking about. We apparently are not revealing my ignorance but we are revealing your inability to answer the simple question that was asked with a straight answer. What does that say about your reasoning powers?
cardw Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 You again avoid answering my question. You answered a question I didn't ask. I didn't ask about Hitler's reasoning powers. I asked if you thought Hitler was an evil person? I'm not sure why this is relevant, but here is my answer. I don't know since I have no way of determining that. He could have been crazy. Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
miz3 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 I'm not sure why this is relevant, but here is my answer. I don't know since I have no way of determining that. He could have been crazy. I expected that answer. Agnostics have a very hard time with whether something is "right or wrong" and something that is "good or evil". Thus, everything has to be "neutral". It is all about reasoning. The question is: Whose reasoning is best? It turns out the one with the biggest stick is best because he wins. To an agnostic what Hitler did cannot be labeled either "good" or "evil" because then you would have to answer the next question which is "where did good and evil come from. If there is no God such qualities cannot exist unless in the minds of the human. It then follows what makes one human's opinion of right and wrong better than another human's opinion of right and wrong. So the Agnostic is stuck saying Hitler was stupid because the consequences didn't end so profitable for him. But they cannot say that Hitler was an "evil" man! Such a philosophy of human existence is clearly foolish and can only breed chaos. It also lets the human off the hook for having to be accountable morally. Thus, the human can do what ever they want as long as they can get away with it while living with other humans. That would mean a murderer is not evil or bad he either was stupid or smart depending on whether he gets away with it or not. What an indefensible position and philosophy!
cardw Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Originally Posted By: cardw I'm not sure why this is relevant, but here is my answer. I don't know since I have no way of determining that. He could have been crazy. I expected that answer. Agnostics have a very hard time with whether something is "right or wrong" and something that is "good or evil". How does "I can't determine" translate into me not having the ability to determine if something is harmful or not? Why don't you answer your own question? Was Hitler evil or crazy? And how would you know? Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
fccool Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Quote: To an agnostic what Hitler did cannot be labeled either "good" or "evil" because then you would have to answer the next question which is "where did good and evil come from. If there is no God such qualities cannot exist unless in the minds of the human. It then follows what makes one human's opinion of right and wrong better than another human's opinion of right and wrong. I think you've completely ignored my reference to a straw man and went on to build an argument around Hitler being an evil person. Let me adjust your reasoning a bit. Do you celebrate Columbus Day in United States? Yes, the "good" guy who repeated Christ's words before he died? Quote: They traded with us and gave us everything they had, with good will..they took great delight in pleasing us..They are very gentle and without knowledge of what is evil; nor do they murder or steal..Your highness may believe that in all the world there can be no better people ..They love their neighbors as themselves, and they have the sweetest talk in the world, and are gentle and always laughing. With 50 men you could subject everyone and make them do what you wished. By the official numbers Christopher Columbus killed more people than Hitler. Here's what someone wrote about him: Quote: Christopher Columbus wasn't good or evil, he was a man of his time on a mission. It's easy to discredit his motives five hundred years later but for the period in which he lived, his efforts were heroic as perhaps more reasonably compared to the mission to the moon in our time. So, we have a Christian Nation of United States, celebrating the mass murderer by giving him a day out of the year, while at the same time demonizing Hitler as the ultimate example of evil. Methinks that's a bit of a skewed perspective? But, let's move on to part II just to show you how relatively moral you are.
fccool Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Sure, what Hitler and Columbus did could be perceived as evil. But let's see another great Biblical examples of the great acts of righteousness: We don't really know about human population before flood. All we know that they were exceedingly wicked. So, perhaps it was entirely justifiable to flood all of them, including all of the animals but the ones on the ark. How about picking up a nation of complaining nomads, and then commanding it to massacre virtually all inhabitants in the "holy land", commanding not to spare the children. In fact, if they would spare one person, that would be a terrible thing to do. So, tell me what makes Joshua so "good" and Hitler "evil". If tomorrow you'll find that God indeed tell Hitler to execute judgment on Jews and the "wicked" Europe just like he did in the OT, would it make Hitler "righteous"? Forgive my tone, but all of this "answer me now! Don't avoid the question! Was Hitler evil!", is a bit impudent IMO. I'd like to see how you answer the above.
miz3 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 focool, Your entitled to your opinion. However, you don't understand the argument being made. There is no straw man. In this discussion we are not trying to compare whether Columbus was more evil than Hitler or whether the white man was good and the red man bad. You are trying to make this a racial thing and that's not what it is all about. It you want to debate racial suffering and racial oppression and get your anger about all that on the table, be my guest. However, I will not be engaging in that discussion at this time because cardw and I are in the middle of something else. Your racial anger is showing and you are the one building straw men.
miz3 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 How does "I can't determine" translate into me not having the ability to determine if something is harmful or not? Why don't you answer your own question? Was Hitler evil or crazy? And how would you know? You make my point because you are not willing to use the words "good" or "evil", etc. You used the word "harmful". The word "harmful" does not have the moral quality that "good" and "evil" have. Agnostics avoid moral judgments. The word harmful is the antonym of the word "safe". You would rather define things as either safe or harmful or better yet "harmful" and "not harmful". Using those words blurs the lines even further and fits into your "reason" model much better. Most people when asked whether Hitler was evil would answer "YES!" immediately. Yet you danced and equivocated on the question because its a tough question when you don't believe in "good" and don't believe in "evil". Its classic moral avoidance which the Agnostic position must take. For example, is a poor person who steals from an enormously rich person who would never miss it doing "evil"? To the Christian the answer is easy, yes because the Bible states that we should not steal because God views this as evil. Its a moral question. The Agnostic would say "no" because they would see the situation as "not harmful". Thus, stealing is OK sometimes as long as you "use good reasoning" when you do it and are "not harmful". Agnostics don't and can't take a moral stand. This is their way of "guilt avoidance". What a wonderful fairy tail world, to feel no guilt because you use your "reasoning" and you "do no harm".
fccool Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Quote: You are trying to make this a racial thing and that's not what it is all about. It you want to debate racial suffering and racial oppression and get your anger about all that on the table, be my guest. However, I will not be engaging in that discussion at this time because cardw and I are in the middle of something else. Your racial anger is showing and you are the one building straw men. I'm guessing that you may have previous arguments that you draw from to think that my "anger" is racially motivated. I'm Eastern European white... and I believe that I did not even mention race in my post. Your position seems to be that reason is "evil" without divine guidance. As an example, you draw on Hitler reasoning that lead him to killing Jews, and you ask "what makes Hitler's reasoning more evil than mine"... implying that without some standard it's by no means evil. I've demonstrated that you are likewise a moral relativist, just like Hitler was, just like Martin Luther was, just like Catholic inquisition was, and just like everyone is when they celebrate Columbus day while condemning Hitler for his terrible crimes against humanity. Once again... nothing do do with race. Simply addressing your arguments, which are terribly flawed.
fccool Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Also, we should point out that water is not unique to Earth. There's a phenomenon of space ice (i.e. comets), and water on other planets.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 31, 2011 Administrators Posted May 31, 2011 Moderator note: Ad hominem post has been removed. Stick to the topic and address the issues. Stop the personal attacking. Tom (As moderator pro tem in John317's absence) "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
doug yowell Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Do you celebrate Columbus Day in United States? Yes, the "good" guy who repeated Christ's words before he died? By the official numbers Christopher Columbus killed more people than Hitler. So, we have a Christian Nation of United States, celebrating the mass murderer by giving him a day out of the year, while at the same time demonizing Hitler as the ultimate example of evil. This has to be one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.What kind of a mind could think up these things,cool?? Where did you find these ideas?
fccool Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Quote: This has to be one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.What kind of a mind could think up these things,cool?? Where did you find these ideas? Would you care to elaborate on my ignorace? http://ux.brookdalecc.edu/fac/history/Tangents/ARTICLESFORTANGENTS/Columbus%27s%20Genocide.htm
doug yowell Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 How about picking up a nation of complaining nomads, and then commanding it to massacre virtually all inhabitants in the "holy land", commanding not to spare the children. In fact, if they would spare one person, that would be a terrible thing to do. Don't we know something about the inhabitants of Caanan? Were they just innocent people in the wrong place at the wrong time? Should we consider the sacrifice of babies, the widespread sexual deviations,the adultery,thefts,warring,murders,ect...ect...parts of everyday unharmful practices? Didn't God keep those same wandering nomads out of the same situation for 400+years because He was giving those same innocent people time to get their act together? Didn't those complainers first give each inhabitant an opportunity to change their behaviour in order to escape their inevitable fate? Did you miss the consequences of Israel's failure to carry out the commands that were given them? Or the reason they were given in the first place? Or the fact that some of those same inhabitants were actually incorporated into the same group that was killing their neighbors? There's something wrong here,Adolf!!
ClubV12 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 The penalty for sin is death, no escape, no excuses the sentence WILL be carried out. By a roving band of nomads, a group of evil angels, fire from heaven or whatever method God chooses to deal with this "mystery of sin". He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but there is no other alternative. All those who do not love the Lord and have rejected Him will find no happiness in heaven. It would be torture for them, forever. What then shall be done with such beings, evil angels as well as mankind? Shall they be allowed to continue forever? Shall this mystery of sin, of unhappiness, of war and strife go on eternally? Shall we commission a special planet where they can work out their own will as they please, forever? Sacraficing their children, murdering, all manner of evil continually day and night? God in His mercy identifies the only possible long term solution to the mystery of sin. It must be eradicated, eternally, at some point this madness has to stop. The death of the wicked is mercy, to them, to the earth, to the heavenly beings through out His creation. And when that is complete, every tear will be removed, every remembrance of sin will be gone. Eternal happiness and love will reign in it's place. Finally, the great controversy and all the pain it has caused will be wiped away. It is a very sad end, but it is the only possible solution. Even so, come Lord Jesus.
doug yowell Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Quote: This has to be one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.What kind of a mind could think up these things,cool?? Where did you find these ideas? Would you care to elaborate on my ignorace? http://ux.brookdalecc.edu/fac/history/Tangents/ARTICLESFORTANGENTS/Columbus%27s%20Genocide.htm I was hoping it wasn't YOUR ignorance. It defies common sense to believe that Columbus "by official numbers"(who's the official here?)killed more people than Hitler!! 1)There simply weren't more than 6 million people on the island of Hispana or the surrounding islands where Chris traveled.2) History records that Columbus never gave any orders to exterminate any population.In fact he was only in the area a couple of times for a couple of years,and ended up dying as an obscure failure. Why are you believing a history that someone just made up?? The claims are so ridiculus it's pathetic.There are thousands of books written about Columbus try reading a few that are well researched rather than a blog site with an agenda.
skyblue888 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Was Hitler evil? Yes, of course he was. But I believe the question should be, Are all human beings just as potentially evil as Hitler became? According to the Scriptures, the answer has to be "Yes". They declare that we are by nature "children of wrath" (Eph.2:3) or "children of darkness". Luke 16:8. We often hear this saying, "But for the grace of God" which strongly suggests that if it were not for the Spirit of God restraining the evil that is in each and everyone of us, we would become as evil as Hitler or Satan himself. So if there is anything good or noble or lovely or holy in any human being it is wholly attributable to the merits and mercy of a compassionate Saviour. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
cardw Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Originally Posted By: cardw How does "I can't determine" translate into me not having the ability to determine if something is harmful or not? Why don't you answer your own question? Was Hitler evil or crazy? And how would you know? You make my point because you are not willing to use the words "good" or "evil", etc. You used the word "harmful". Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
ClubV12 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 By their works you shall know them. It is a ridiculous question to ask, is Hitler evil. Is it not obvious enough? Are we that dull that someone has to explain it? I find the question itself insulting to any reasonable man's intelligence.
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