cardw Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 By their works you shall know them. It is a ridiculous question to ask, is Hitler evil. Is it not obvious enough? Are we that dull that someone has to explain it? I find the question itself insulting to any reasonable man's intelligence. Ok, if it's so simple answer these questions. Was Martin Luther evil because he burned witches at the stake and created the anti-semetic environment that led to the mass murder of the Jews by the Third Reich? Was John Calvin evil because he created an environment in which people committed suicide in prison rather than face the long tortures he placed on them in the name of Jesus? I can list others, but I think this makes my point. Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
skyblue888 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 It is true that Luther, at first, spoke evil of the Jews. But later in life, as light shone upon him more and more, he changed his attitude toward the Jews. This can be found in THE WORKS OF LUTHER. What's this about Calvin? Where did you read this? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 It doesn't make your point at all!!!! The "ridiculous question" here is whether or not Hitler was evil. The answer is, DUH! Martin Luther is an entirely different circumstance,,,, DUH!!! Paul helped stone Steven, was he evil? I mean really, some questions can be debated, but some questions are just ridiculous and barely worthy of any response.
skyblue888 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Club, we all know how the disciples of Christ were slow to learn but can you imagine Jesus saying to any one of them, especially Philip, DUH! "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Ha Ha,,, point well taken Sky. The endless posts on the subject of Hitler just finally got to me, and I couldn't stand it any longer. Weak and pittiful soul that I am.
miz3 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 cardw, The answer to the question "Was Hitler evil?" is a good question as far as you and other Agnostics are concerned for the reasons I already outlined. Thus, agnostics can face life without having to feel "guilt" because to an agnostic there are no moral standards to live up to which would make one "feel guilty". Agnostics are trying to live in a world that is a fairy tale because they attempt live only in the "concrete". (see Thomas Huxley, Robert Ingersoll, Bertrand "tea pot" Russell). Its a sad world for them because anything they cannot prove in a concrete way is "not provable" and therefore may or may not exist. Thus, if one states they "love their wife" such love probably does not exist because it is impossible to prove. So the agnostic would go on as s/he does with God saying since I can't prove it I will live as if it doesn't exist. Whether Hitler is evil exposes this lack of moral reality. To a Christian like me the answer is easy, of course Hitler is evil by all Christian outward measurements. He murdered, he stole, he lied, etc. thus, breaking most if not all Christian and Biblical Standards of morality.
fccool Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Doug, Where do you get the idea that they were given time to "put their act together"? It's very common for fundamentalists to paint the people of Canaan in macabre colors. In reality, they were not much different from the "chose ones". Also, please elaborate on my ignorance about my statements about Columbus.
skyblue888 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Those are good points miz3. I will only add that even those who choose not to believe in God because "not provable" are resisting the "pricks" of the Holy Spirit and therefore their own conscience is accusing them and if they persist in ignoring the voice of conscience they, unfortunately, will sin away their day of grace. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 You don't HAVE to be a "christian" to answer the question, "Was Hitler evil?" This assumes you have knowledge of and accept the historical record of what the man did. Having accepted the historical record, it is frightening to think a man has removed himself so far from any semblance of human dignity that he would hesitate to answer the question in the affirmative. Regardless of his belief system, or lack thereof.
fccool Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Are things moral just because God says they are moral, or they are moral for some other underlying reason?... i.e. these obviously harm someone or something, or they will result in eminent and demonstrative self-destruction of societies? If morality is something that God abides by, then it follows that concept has to exist apart from the concept of God. I.E., why would it be wrong for God to lie? Why would it be wrong for God to steal, to rape? Is it because He simply said that it was wrong, or was it because it is demonstratively harmful? Now, to avoid this problem, Christians tend to fuse God and morality together. God is morality, and he is moral because "that's his nature". He can't do certain things He is not. First of all, it's rather circular, and it turns God into a limited being that can only do something because He can't do other things. Secondly, it give humans more "free will" then they give to God. For morality to be absolute and consitant with free will, God has to: 1) Be able to do evil 2) Understand that it's wrong 3) Not do it because of choice, and not certain character constraint. Otherwise, the whole argument of "evil is there because of free will" goes out of the window. God could have created people unable to do evil, just like He is unable to do the same. So, with that, now we have a dillema: 1) The morality is something that's outside of God that he abides by 2) The idea of evil existing because humans must maintain free will is invalid. Likewise, if morality is not separate from God... the only reason God can do good is for none other reason than he can't do evil... He is a good robot in a sense of that word. But, if morality is indeed a process of reason that can value the and see the best outcomes and exists for maintenance of such outcomes... then it's universal, and God abides by it. And we have another problem for Christians... that atheists can see it without God telling them that, for example, killing humans is wrong.
ClubV12 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Basic moral principles are what separate us from the animals. Where it "came from" may be open to debate. As a chrisitain, I believe the "source" is the living God. The geat "I am". But regardless, ALL humanity has a measure of "morality", or else we would be animals. As such, unless that "measure" has been severely repressed, the Hitler question can only have one answer. There is one other possibility, the question is asked by a sincere seeker of truth. Sadly, quite misguided, certainly confused, but possibly sincere (but I question that sincerity)! Like us, and all intelligent created beings, God also has a choice. He could do evil if He wanted, He chooses not to, as do I.
skyblue888 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Club, God can do no evil just as the Scriptures tell us that He cannot lie. Not that He chooses not to lie but that He cannot. The man of Romans is a sincere believer and he is a church goer. He is convinced that the law is just and holy and good and he determines to obey that law but finds himself breaking it even as against his own will. He is determined not to do evil and yet against his own will he does evil. Hence he cries out: Who shall deliver me from this body of death. Only as the sinner is united to Christ by faith can he do good and stop to do evil. right? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
fccool Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 There is one other possibility, the question is asked by a sincere seeker of truth. Sadly, quite misguided, certainly confused, but possibly sincere (but I question that sincerity)! Like us, and all intelligent created beings, God also has a choice. He could do evil if He wanted, He chooses not to, as do I. No real need to be condescending here. If God has a choice do or not to do evil, the essentially... morality is not a part of God. If morality is in fact a part of God, but rather that it's knowledge that God contains that can be deduced through process of reason. Do you believe that we can achieve the same redemptive principles through reason? I.E. Can we never hear about God and know that killing is not ok, or that stealing is wrong? You can certainly argue that the concept is "embedded in us" as in "written on our hearts", but that's sort of goes against the idea that we are so terrible and screwed up that we need the forgiveness as soon as we exit the womb. Some Christians would argue that we need it earlier than that.
ClubV12 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 My apologies if my post seemed to be condescending fccool, I was speaking from the heart and meant no ill will. Sorry to say, I do question the sincerity of one who would ask the Hitler question, but I won't hold that against them. Sky and the bible are correct, God can do no evil. I also think it is difficult to express that concept in words we can understand and convey the deep truth of the matter. I accept it at face value, He cannot do evil, period. I also accept the fact that God "could" do anything. The problem is, "evil" is against His nature, it is inconceivable that He would chose to do other than "good" in all things, ever. In effect, it is impossible for God to do otherwise than He does, always has done, always will do, all that is good for all created beings. "...we are so terrible and screwed up that we need the forgiveness as soon as we exit the womb." Yeah, that pretty well sums up the human condition in a nut shell. :)
fccool Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 "...we are so terrible and screwed up that we need the forgiveness as soon as we exit the womb." Yeah, that pretty well sums up the human condition in a nut shell. Do you believe that we are evil as soon as we are born?
ClubV12 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Yes, I do. It is the very nature of man. It is our "inheritance" is one way of saying it. Which does not preclude the offer of salvation!
fccool Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 So, if I understand it correctly, people are evil just because they are born human? Therefore any baby on the planet is essentially evil and deserves hell... am I understanding you correctly?
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 31, 2011 Administrators Posted May 31, 2011 If God did sin, to what or whom would he be answerable? Who or what would execute judgment on Him? If God is the highest power, greater than all else, would He just get away with it? Would that make it evil? Or just an "act of God" as so many catastrophes are labeled? "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
BobRyan Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 So, if I understand it correctly, people are evil just because they are born human? Therefore any baby on the planet is essentially evil and deserves hell... am I understanding you correctly? Romans 3 - "there is none righteous no not one... there is no one that seeks after God" - that is the sinful nature that all are born with - without exception... no not one. Adam passed on that sinful nature to his children - so that even if they die at birth - they need a Savior to be awarded heaven. A savior who will rid them of their sinful nature... and the good news is that they have one who "is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance". in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Do you believe that we can achieve the same redemptive principles through reason? I.E. Can we never hear about God and know that killing is not ok, or that stealing is wrong? John 16 the Holy Spirit supernaturally "convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment". Gen 3 - God supernaturally places emnity between mankind and the serpent. Romans 2 speaks of the non-bible aware gentile that "does instinctively the things of the law ... showing the works of the Law written on the heart" Romans 1 says that the godless barbarians are "without excuse... because the invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made". Paul says that the wicked know that those who do such things deserve judgment. But all of this comes about because of the supernatural work of God. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 31, 2011 Administrators Posted May 31, 2011 Originally Posted By: fccool So, if I understand it correctly, people are evil just because they are born human? Therefore any baby on the planet is essentially evil and deserves hell... am I understanding you correctly? Romans 3 - "there is none righteous no not one... there is no one that seeks after God" - that is the sinful nature that all are born with - without exception... no not one. Adam passed on that sinful nature to his children - so that even if they die at birth - they need a Savior to be awarded heaven. A savior who will rid them of their sinful nature... and the good news is that they have one who "is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance". in Christ, Bob What about Enoch? "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Sonny Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Do you believe that we are evil as soon as we are born? We are born bent-to-self. Take two infants and give one a toy and the other nothing (make sure there are no distractions) and the two infants will wrestle over that toy. Why? We are born dominated with the love of self - i.e., we are born self-centered. James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within ["sin living in me" Rom 7:17] 2 You want something but don't get it. You covet and kill [worse case], but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
CoAspen Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Enoch!!!! Hmmmm..... I would put him into the same group as those alive at the 2nd comming. It is not necessary to experience death first nor does a sinful nature mean one has to sin. I think the issue is our equation of sin=equaling evil person. Enoch was called a righteous person even though his nature was tainted with sin because of Adam and Eve's downfall.
ClubV12 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Isn't Enoch a wonderful story! It shows without a doubt we can overcome our sinful nature to the point where we to can walk with God, even on the planet earth! Even being born with a sinful nature cannot stop Gods love!
CoAspen Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Quote: ...we can overcome our sinful nature... May I suggest the above needs rewording or do you believe 'we' can do it? Enoch 'walked' with God in order not to sin. Not sinning and then walking with God suggests doing something on our own.
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