Does Harold Camping remind you of 1844?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Ok, you have yet to share with us this precision definition.

Your are long on bluster and short on actually saying anything.

Once you pick a definition we can see how comprehensive it really is.

In asking you to decide whether Hitler is evil or not was not to make a precise statement about Christianity but to expose the fact that Agnosticism is found wanting in dealing with moral issues.

A(not) gnosis(knowing)

It appears that you are agnostic when it comes to a precise definition of evil.

[skyblue888]

Card, Are you absolutely sure that this "Of the Jews and their Lies," was written by Luther shortly before his death?

Cause if what you are saying is true, then it comes as a shock to me that I had it all backward.

sky

*I found it online.

[ClubV12]

That reminds me of how persistently the early church Jews refused the message to the point of stoning Stephen. Not much has changed from then, to Luther's time to today. Me thinks Luther was onto something by speaking plainly on the matter?

Now we are so politically correct it's hard to express ANY concept of the Jew's rejection of the message, without being accused of something.

[CoAspen]

You need to read what Luther said about the Jew's. He did not come across as kind and caring person for them, quite the opposite. Your suggestion (Me thinks Luther was onto something by speaking plainly on the matter?)

that is how christians should treat unbelievers is wrong. Christ did not act in this manner at all.

His viewpoint on Jews should be seen as a flaw that was exploited by the Germans. His words were anti-semitic but reviewers of his writings suggest it was about their denial of Christ rather than being Jews. This should be an example to us on how to speak about others so that our words can not be used against us. Love your neighbor as yourself does not have a qualifier of 'only if they agree with you.'

[ClubV12]

Never read it, don't care to, got other things that are more relevant today. The history of the Jews and their supporters, destroyers and allies is well documented through out history. If Luther had a problem with the Jews, I really don't care. It does nothing to take away from the great work that God used him to do.

[CoAspen]

Than commenting about things you have no knowledge of could be considered_______, you fill in the blanks! Maybe just whistling in the wind?

[ClubV12]

"Me thinks Luther was onto something by speaking plainly on the matter?"

Did ya notice the QUESTION MARK in my comment? It looks like this_____________ ????

"Now we are so politically correct it's hard to express ANY concept of the Jew's rejection of the message, without being accused of something."

CONFIRMED: You can't even make a comment about Jews without someone getting all upset about it. While it's OK to denigrate Luther? Equal time. Luther did a great work and is worthy of respect. The Jews crucified Christ, stoned Stephen and to this day reject Christianity. Thats the facts.

Where is the love? Good question, where IS the love while your busy bashing Luther, a servant of God?

[cardw]

Never read it, don't care to, got other things that are more relevant today. The history of the Jews and their supporters, destroyers and allies is well documented through out history. If Luther had a problem with the Jews, I really don't care.

[ClubV12]

What part of "I don't care about Luthers writings about the Jews" don't you understand?

I never made any statements about the truthfullness of Luther one way or the other. I don't wish to be a member of this "mob lynching" of a man of God. Espcially as you go out of your way to heap pity on the Jews. As it regards christianity, the Jews made their own bed, let them lie in it. I don't dislike them, don't care one way or the other, their history is well known. As for Luther, these attacks on his character go beyond a "foot note" in history and denigrate the man. THAT, I do care about, it aint right.

The comparison of Hitler to Luther is outrageous, shameful and disgusting.

[skyblue888]

Amen ClubV12! I agree with you completely.

"The people of Israel had made their choice. Pointing to Jesus they had said, "Not this man, but Barabbas." Barabbas, the robber and murderer, was the representative of Satan. Christ was the representative of God. Christ had been rejected; Barabbas had been chosen. Barabbas they were to have. In making this choice they accepted him who from the beginning was a liar and a murderer. Satan was their leader. As a nation they would act out his dictation. His works they would do. His rule they must endure. That people who chose Barabbas in the place of Christ were to feel the cruelty of Barabbas as long as time should last.

Looking upon the smitten Lamb of God, the Jews had cried, "His blood be on us, and on our children." That awful cry ascended to the throne of God. That sentence, pronounced upon themselves, was written in heaven. That prayer was heard. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a perpetual curse.

Terribly was it realized in the destruction of Jerusalem. Terribly has it been manifested in the condition of the Jewish nation for eighteen hundred years,--a branch severed from the vine, a dead, fruitless branch, to be gathered up and burned. From land to land throughout the world, from century to century, dead, dead in trespasses and sins! Terribly will that prayer be fulfilled in the great judgment day." The Desire of Ages, p.739.

sky

[Tom Wetmore]

To not care is by definition the lukewarm (indifference) condition of Laodicea. It is said that the opposite of love is apathy.

To express such indifference for anyone, singularly or as a group, is repugnant to the direct command of Christ to love one another, to love even our enemies.

I am appalled.

[ClubV12]

Tom, if God has placed a burden on you to work for a particular group of people, do what you need to do. I have no calling to Africa, Australia or Israel. I have no special burden for Israel, the Jews, Hammas or New York city as far as that goes. I'm not personally interested in how to do that work. How to witness to them, how to stand up for their "persecution". I don't know what their needs are. Others have that burden, I'd like to hear how their doing in a mission report. If so moved by God maybeI can help with a donation. Other than that, I have things I need to do right here in my hometown. Real people that have real needs that I CAN do something about.

Re-hashing the history of the persecution of the Jews is not high on the list of things I care about. It's "history, well known." Heard enough, know the deal, what else is new? Is there a problem TODAY that I can help with? I can't do a thing about what Luther did or didn't do or for the Jews. His work was substantially larger than that "foot note".

If I meet a Jewish person (or a Muslim) in my neighborhood who needs help, I don't care where he is from, what color he is or what his background is, if I can help, I will. The State of Israel and their plight in history and today? They made their bed, let them lie in it, not a thing I can do about it.

[phkrause]

Tom, if God has placed a burden on you to work for a particular group of people, do what you need to do. I have no calling to Africa, Australia or Israel. I have no special burden for Israel, the Jews, Hammas or New York city as far as that goes. I'm not personally interested in how to do that work. How to witness to them, how to stand up for their "persecution". I don't know what their needs are. Others have that burden, I'd like to hear how their doing in a mission report. If so moved by God maybeI can help with a donation. Other than that, I have things I need to do right here in my hometown. Real people that have real needs that I CAN do something about.

Re-hashing the history of the persecution of the Jews is not high on the list of things I care about. It's "history, well known." Heard enough, know the deal, what else is new? Is there a problem TODAY that I can help with? I can't do a thing about what Luther did or didn't do or for the Jews. His work was substantially larger than that "foot note".

If I meet a Jewish person (or a Muslim) in my neighborhood who needs help, I don't care where he is from, what color he is or what his background is, if I can help, I will. The State of Israel and their plight in history and today? They made their bed, let them lie in it, not a thing I can do about it.

Actually Club its not just history, its with us today and everyday. The Jews are still persecuted today. The reason they continually move to Israel is because where they live they are being persecuted. Of course most of the Christian world thinks there really helping them by helping them to move to Israel. Somehow they got this idea that the Temple is gonna be rebuilt.

[CoAspen]

Hmmm, Luther is being persecuted here, according to some, but the Jew's made their bed, let them lie in it, real people with real needs, Luthers anti Jew writings only a 'foot note'......

Some people are clueless in what they post, hope it doesn't come back to haunt them!!

Very enlightening what we learn about people. I would suggest a class on understanding prejudice, how to recognize it and avoid it.

[ClubV12]

,,,plenty of vain ramblings and ego's on parade in this thread. The holier than thou is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

I have little or no interest in the future of Israel, as a group or people or nation, I don't hate them, I don't like them, I don't care.

Luther, happens to be German, so what? He could be French for all I care. It's all about what the man (or woman) has done with his life. Hitler was German, I don't like the guy, I don't care what nationality he is. If a Jewish man does great things for God, or evil things to the world, THAT I care about, not where he's from or who his people are. The Germans made their own bed, they can lie in it.

[cardw]

What part of "I don't care about Luthers writings about the Jews" don't you understand?

[fccool]

Re-hashing the history of the persecution of the Jews is not high on the list of things I care about. It's "history, well known." Heard enough, know the deal, what else is new? Is there a problem TODAY that I can help with? I can't do a thing about what Luther did or didn't do or for the Jews. His work was substantially larger than that "foot note".

If I meet a Jewish person (or a Muslim) in my neighborhood who needs help, I don't care where he is from, what color he is or what his background is, if I can help, I will. The State of Israel and their plight in history and today? They made their bed, let them lie in it, not a thing I can do about it.

I'm glad that you are thinking along those lines, but perhaps you are missing the point of criticism of your particular philosophy.

You can't separate a person from his Philosophy. Let's say we compare two types of people:

1) A person who has means and power to do something and does it.

2) A person who has similar mindset, but does not have means and power to do certain things.

I think what cardw is implying by questioning the evil nature of Hitler is what's the difference between #1 and #2? I think we can all agree with certain facts:

a) Hitler had a wife he loved

He did not eat children for breakfast

c) He cared about the fate of his country and saw the suffering of the people in post-WWII era.

d) He thought that Jews sold out Germany by forcing the US into the war, which was the tipping point that caused German defeat.

Hitler was not the single evil person that "hypnotized" the nation to do his "evil" will. If you think of him as such, then you are grossly ignorant of the historical context which lead to the facio-socialist take-over during that time.

Hitler resonated with Germany because these were the thoughts of the majority. He was not a lone thinker "brainwashing the nation". Socialist take-over happened for the same reason in Tzarist Russia. People wanted a regime change, because they were mistreated. Hitler simply rolled out the plan overtime.

a) They felt that Jews betrayed them by selling them out for Palestine.

They thought that they were treated unfairly with burdens of war reparations that plunged Germany into economic poverty.

Hitler did not just wake up one day and thought that he hated Jews and doing the most evil thing he possibly could. Likewise, the Germans would not followed with the idea if it was not for historical reformation sentiments along with the fact that Zionists did incite US into war against Germany.

________________________________________________

The bottom line is the concept of the BANALITY OF EVIL. The phrase made up by Hannah Arendt to describe the concept of regular people accepting premises of the state to execute certain actions as "normal".

Such is not action of "evil monsters", but rather normal people who are terribly misguided about ways to solving certain problems.

There are plenty examples from our modern society... from locking people up for smoking plants, to bombing the hundreds of thousands, while killing women and children to achieve a regime change.

In either case, the individuals who align themselves with a particular action of the state and it's leaders don't consider themselves evil, because their actions are justified by state, laws, patriotism, skewed morality, Machiavellian mentality, or religion.

[ClubV12]

cardw says,

"Luther was worse than Hitler."

I rest my case, this issue doesn't even warrant response.

[fccool]

Someone asked about Calvin's position on heretics... here's a quote from Calvin:

Quote:

Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory.

Not such a "good" guy after all? He himself participated in witch burning in the name of God.

Luther had some serious issues. There's inherent need for the church to make him a heroic character, but he did not object to burning people at steak for practicing naturalistic medicine, neither he had a high view of women to begin with:

Quote:

If [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth that is why they are there.

It may be a non-issue to you. For you, Luther only existed in order to give people Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Yet, if anyone of church leaders standing up and saying things that Luther held to... he'd be committing a career and denomination suicide.

If president of the SDA church stands up and says: "Burn the synagogues... and it does not matter if women die!", would you want to be associated with such denomination?

[ClubV12]

What this thread needs:

We are beyond all reason.

[miz3]

Well said, Sonny!

[fccool]

Sonny,

If we substitute the image of the Jews, with image of the Canaanites that were cut down with swords by Joshua and the band... would you still consider it to be evil act? Was Joshua evil for rounding up Canaanites and killing everyone, including women and children?

[Sonny]

Sonny,

If we substitute the image of the Jews, with image of the Canaanites that were cut down with swords by Joshua and the band... would you still consider it to be evil act? Was Joshua evil for rounding up Canaanites and killing everyone, including women and children?

I have trouble with this.....Doesn't sound like the God I know.

[Tom Wetmore]

...We are beyond all reason...

By the use of the pronoun "we" it is generally assumed the speaker is included as the subject of the sentence.

Since I tend to agree that some here have lost all reason, I have locked this topic. It has drifted far from its original topic and fallen into a pit of irrational disputation.

I have also deleted a referenced post that contained a graphic and offensive image of nude victims of the Holocaust.

Tom

Pro tem moderator