Judgement time??? YES says Mark Kellner

[Stan]

MARK A. KELLNER

The comment, in a posting on an Adventist-related weblog, or blog, stopped me cold: “I don’t have the need to force my beliefs on anyone else. It’s not a Christian’s job to tell someone else what they need to do. All of us have to follow our own conscience.”

While “Anna,” the young woman quoted,* is correct in suggesting that “forcing” our beliefs on others is wrong, I would propose, actually, that it is the believer’s duty “to tell someone else what they need to do.”

We need to tell “someone else” they need to repent; Jesus declared as much in Mark 1:15: “ ‘The time has come,’ he said. ‘The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!’ ” The Master wasn’t addressing the converted there.

We also need to tell “someone else” that there’s a right and a wrong way to live. “There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death” is how it reads in Proverbs 14:12.

And we can advise “someone else” that following his or her own conscience can be hazardous in the extreme. Jeremiah warns: “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure” (Jer. 17:9). My apologies to Jiminy Cricket, but we mortals cannot let our conscience “be our guide,” else all would be anarchy.

It’s not a comfortable position to advise repentance so as to avoid calamity. Just ask Jonah! But it’s an essential task for the Christian. And if others are offended, I’m sorry about that, but they must still be warned. The Lord expects no less.

SOURCE

[Igakusei]

Jesus is a zombie!

There, now we're showing equivalent respect for each other's beliefs.

[Stan]

???

[skyblue888]

That's a religious topic!!! :)

[Dr. Rich]

That's a religious topic!!!

It's a life or death choice; not just a game. (For the soul, that is) To point out other choices one can make and should make is the right thing to do--like keeping someone from drinking and driving. Dontcha think???

[fccool]

???

I think what he means is that Christians generally have very little respect for beliefs of other people when they present the tenets of Christianity.

Even in this article the ideas presented:

1) People/mind/heart are evil and can't be trusted

2) They should repent

3) They should turn to God to avoid punishment for their evil ways.

4) Trusting in their own understanding is discourages. One should trust in a Biblical understanding as interpreted through lens of some church.

I hope it makes sense.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

???

I think what he means is that Christians generally have very little respect for beliefs of other people when they present the tenets of Christianity.

Even in this article the ideas presented:

1) People/mind/heart are evil and can't be trusted

2) They should repent

3) They should turn to God to avoid punishment for their evil ways.

4) Trusting in their own understanding is discourages. One should trust in a Biblical understanding as interpreted through lens of some church.

I hope it makes sense.

Pretty much. I think that organized religion tends to do more harm than good, and often prevents free thought and honest inquiry. I believe that there are a lot of problems out there that have better solutions than those offered by Christianity, and so I resent that so many Christians feel that it is their spiritual duty to "tell someone else what they need to do."

If you want to have other people do your thinking for you, then by all means go right ahead. Just leave me alone. Some might accuse me of hypocrisy for that since I'm posting on an SDA forum and clearly do not hold mainstream SDA beliefs, but the key difference in my opinion is that I'm not telling anyone else what to think or how to live their personal lives. I don't expect anyone else to believe what I say just because I say it, which is exactly the opposite of what this guy is espousing.

[phkrause]

Pretty much. I think that organized religion tends to do more harm than good, and often prevents free thought and honest inquiry. I believe that there are a lot of problems out there that have better solutions than those offered by Christianity, and so I resent that so many Christians feel that it is their spiritual duty to "tell someone else what they need to do."

If you want to have other people do your thinking for you, then by all means go right ahead. Just leave me alone. Some might accuse me of hypocrisy for that since I'm posting on an SDA forum and clearly do not hold mainstream SDA beliefs, but the key difference in my opinion is that I'm not telling anyone else what to think or how to live their personal lives. I don't expect anyone else to believe what I say just because I say it, which is exactly the opposite of what this guy is espousing.

I disagree with you. I'm guessing that as you grew up you never listen to anyone, so you wouldn't be influenced by anyone, as to your believes that you holed right now? And the other thing that I noticed, he never called anyone any names! Not trying to be confrontational, but this is what I got out of your post.

[BobRyan]

I believe that there are a lot of problems out there that have better solutions than those offered by Christianity, and so I resent that so many Christians feel that it is their spiritual duty to "tell someone else what they need to do."

Christians are supposed to be telling everyone that all have sinned - that the wages of sin is death - not just the first death - but the second death in the Lake of Fire.

Christians are supposed to be telling people that all have a sinful nature that is morally depraved as Romans 3 states.

Christians are supposed to be telling people that mankind tends to love darkness rather than light... that without God people make flawed, faulty senseless choices for which "they are without excuse" Rom 1.

The moral depravity of mankind in his sinful nature leads people to choose darkness rather than light - even to the point of believing that birds come from plants .... birds come from reptiles etc. (of course they would include a heavy amount of "storytelling" with the number "billions and billions" tossed in liberally and also a fair amount of "stories from the fossil record about how one thing came from another...stories easy enough to make up but they are not science")

It is amazing that such flawed thinking is even possible much less popular when people are separated from the light of truth - but it is indeed out there.

So here is the question - knowing the above ... how "loving" would it really be for Christian to simply ignore the fate of the lost around them as if it really did not matter to them?

How "rational" is it for the lost to insist that nobody warn them when they are at risk?

in Christ,

Bob

[Igakusei]

I disagree with you. I'm guessing that as you grew up you never listen to anyone, so you wouldn't be influenced by anyone, as to your believes that you holed right now? And the other thing that I noticed, he never called anyone any names! Not trying to be confrontational, but this is what I got out of your post.

I'm not sure what you mean. There's a big difference between:

1. Drinking down everything I'm told with no critical thought at all, and

2. Never listening to anyone, ever.

Why is everything so black-and-white? Does it have to be either at one extreme or the other?

To BobRyan: Please learn to differentiate between opinion and fact.

[Gerr]

If you knew a tsunami is coming, wouldn't you want to tell those in danger to get to higher ground? What a person does with the information you give is where the critical thinking comes in.

[fccool]

If you knew a tsunami is coming, wouldn't you want to tell those in danger to get to higher ground? What a person does with the information you give is where the critical thinking comes in.

Hmm, would you buy and insurance from a salesman who scares you into thinking that you will die soon?

After all he "cares" about you and your family! Is that what Christianity is all about? Is it about looking forward to disaster and "packing our bags", or is it about doing everything possible to avert the disaster?

It may be a shocking statement for everyone here, but I DON'T WANT CHRIST TO COME SOON... based on description of things that will happen to billions of people around the world. You would be HEARTLESS and SELFISH to want that. And in fact, that's what millions of Christians worldwide are banking on. They don't really care about these people beyond joining their ranks.

Somehow I don't believe that God is that heartless (if in fact there's one), and that's why I believe that we'll stick around for a while.

So, instead of wishing for it all to end, how about trying to improve things while we are here? There's so much that we can do.

[Igakusei]

If you knew a tsunami is coming, wouldn't you want to tell those in danger to get to higher ground? What a person does with the information you give is where the critical thinking comes in.

[fccool]

Igakusei,

Do you see positive things in Christianity, and if you do, what are they?

[BobRyan]

In 2Peter 3 - God tells us that those who deny the future 2nd coming and destruction of the world - will very often first reject the historic destruction of the world by a global flood.

Surely that point is demonstrated over and over.

in Christ,

Bob

[fccool]

Bob,

Is such denial a justification for destruction of billions of people worldwide? Do you really believe that all of the people are so wicked and terrible that they deserve that?

Can you see people past your dogma? Can you see people with needs, understanding, and uniqueness? Or do you only see people through the "wicked" telescope of Biblical dogma?

That becomes a problem when you communicate the "message" to the world. You see it BACKWARDS. They way you see it:

a) Bible says that there will be people who deny that flood happened

Such people are called wicked and deserve punishment

c) By association, any person who questions the historical claims of the Bible is wicked

You ignore quite a bit of issues with such mentality. I have a new name for it:

"No-Plan-B-God-Is-Right-And-My-Understanding-Is-Not-Mine-But-God's-Harold-Camping-Mentality"

[Igakusei]

Igakusei,

Do you see positive things in Christianity, and if you do, what are they?

I think that Christianity, like any other social culture, has positive aspects in that it provides a support network for humans to rely on each other.

I do not think that these positive aspects can't be gained through a support network that has purged itself of all the harmful nonsense, however.

Bob for instance thinks that we need Jesus because we're wicked, horrible people with no hope of a decent life without Him. I wonder if Bob would still think that we were all wicked, horrible people by nature if nobody had taught him that?

Christianity creates an imaginary problem, and then dangles the imaginary cure in front of you.

[Gerr]

But you don't know that a tsunami is coming. Fact vs. Opinion......

So you acknowledge that there's a difference between fact and opinion, and here (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to imply that your quote is fact, and positions that disagree with it are opinion.

What I say is opinion, but the quote is fact. And there IS something worse than a tsunami coming! Many of the prophets including the greatest Prophet of them all proclaimed it. But just as the antediluvians ridiculed the warning of a coming deluge, so much if not most of the world scoffs at the imminent end of the world as Peter prophesied. If it has not happened yet, it is because - ESV | 2 Pe 3:9 "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

I would not presume to think for you, friend, but I urge you to critically examine the claims of Jesus and make up your own mind.

[Igakusei]

What I say is opinion, but the quote is fact. And there IS something worse than a tsunami coming! Many of the prophets including the greatest Prophet of them all proclaimed it. But just as the antediluvians ridiculed the warning of a coming deluge, so much if not most of the world scoffs at the imminent end of the world as Peter prophesied. If it has not happened yet, it is because - ESV | 2 Pe 3:9 "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

I would not presume to think for you, friend, but I urge you to critically examine the claims of Jesus and make up your own mind.

I have, and did. Clearly you and I have come to different conclusions, and that's okay.

The difference is that I would rather live in a world without thought-police. I believe that your beliefs are dangerous and harmful, but I respect your right for you to marry who you want and raise your children the way you see fit, unless you cross lines deemed by the majority of society to be unjustifiable (e.g. physical or sexual abuse).

Christians likewise see my beliefs as dangerous and harmful, but the difference is that many of them do not respect my right to live my life the way I see fit. I personally know Christians who believe homosexuals should all be executed for their crimes against humanity.

I've always thought it disrespectful and rude to shove my beliefs in someone else's face, even when you and I shared much more in that regard than we do now.

How do you know that your quote is fact. Is everything in the Bible fact? Again, it is your opinion that it is fact.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

I believe that there are a lot of problems out there that have better solutions than those offered by Christianity, and so I resent that so many Christians feel that it is their spiritual duty to "tell someone else what they need to do."

So here is the question - knowing the above ... how "loving" would it really be for Christian to simply ignore the fate of the lost around them as if it really did not matter to them?

How "rational" is it for the lost to insist that nobody warn them when they are at risk?

in Christ,

Bob

We've got the evolutionists ridiculing creationists as if we were ignoramuses (is that the correct plural of ignoramus?) and that's supposedly a useful thing, but for Christians to actually be concerned about the eternal salvation of others is a bad thing?

Stan said it right - "???"

Remember Pascal's wager.

[Gerr]

[phkrause]

I'm not sure what you mean. There's a big difference between:

1. Drinking down everything I'm told with no critical thought at all, and

2. Never listening to anyone, ever.

Why is everything so black-and-white? Does it have to be either at one extreme or the other?

To BobRyan: Please learn to differentiate between opinion and fact.

What I'm trying to say is, what's wrong with good advice? God has given us Ten wonderful rules to live by. Which we should, I believe, pass on to others. If you have a friend that continuely goes through red lights wouldn't you warn him that someday he just might get into an accident and kill someone? Or if you have a friend that drinks and than drive's, you wouldn't tell him that this could result in maybe killing someone or maybe some other bad thing. If you have friends that are depressed about this world that's spinning out of control wouldn't you want to tell them that Jesus came to this earth to die the second death that someday we will be able to reunite with him in an earth made new and nit ever have to suffer like we do today! But I guess if we start out with the premise that we just live than die and there is nothing better to look forward to, than I guess there is nothing to tell anyone.

[Igakusei]

We've got the evolutionists ridiculing creationists as if we were ignoramuses (is that the correct plural of ignoramus?) and that's supposedly a useful thing, but for Christians to actually be concerned about the eternal salvation of others is a bad thing?

Stan said it right - "???"

Remember Pascal's wager.

Wait wait wait wait wait, hold it right there. You think Pascal's wager is actually a good reason to believe?!?

[Igakusei]

What I'm trying to say is, what's wrong with good advice? God has given us Ten wonderful rules to live by. Which we should, I believe, pass on to others. If you have a friend that continuely goes through red lights wouldn't you warn him that someday he just might get into an accident and kill someone? Or if you have a friend that drinks and than drive's, you wouldn't tell him that this could result in maybe killing someone or maybe some other bad thing. If you have friends that are depressed about this world that's spinning out of control wouldn't you want to tell them that Jesus came to this earth to die the second death that someday we will be able to reunite with him in an earth made new and nit ever have to suffer like we do today! But I guess if we start out with the premise that we just live than die and there is nothing better to look forward to, than I guess there is nothing to tell anyone.

Because it's not good advice.

Sure, killing and stealing and lying and several of those other things are generally good rules to live by, because they enable our ability to live productive lives in a social community where cooperation is necessary. You don't have to be religious to understand the golden rule as a healthy concept, and it's not like Christianity has a monopoly on these things.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

What I'm trying to say is, what's wrong with good advice? God has given us Ten wonderful rules to live by. Which we should, I believe, pass on to others. If you have a friend that continuely goes through red lights wouldn't you warn him that someday he just might get into an accident and kill someone? Or if you have a friend that drinks and than drive's, you wouldn't tell him that this could result in maybe killing someone or maybe some other bad thing. If you have friends that are depressed about this world that's spinning out of control wouldn't you want to tell them that Jesus came to this earth to die the second death that someday we will be able to reunite with him in an earth made new and nit ever have to suffer like we do today! But I guess if we start out with the premise that we just live than die and there is nothing better to look forward to, than I guess there is nothing to tell anyone.

Because it's not good advice.

Says who? Is it written somewhere that the Ten Commandments are bad advice? Maybe in one of Dawkin's books?

Or were you referring to the advice not to drink and drive?