War in heaven - War on Earth; Choosing sides

[BobRyan]

In Rev 12 we find that there was "War in heaven" at one time - but at the cross Satan "saw that he had a short time" and was enraged at the church.

In Rev 14 we find a kind of "who is on the Lord's Side" message in the first Angel's message "Fear God and give Glory to Him for the hour of His judgment had come. Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of water".

And of course in Rev 19 we see "war on earth" - but this time it is God bringing the war to Satan's turf - not Satan bringing war to God's home field.

It appears to me that Rev 14 is positioned as a kind of "choose up sides" statement. Like Moses coming down from the mountain and saying "who is on the Lord's side".

What are your thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

In Rev 12 we find that there was "War in heaven" at one time

Come on, it wasn't an actual war. If it was Satan and his followers would have be wiped out.

[Tom Wetmore]

The original Greek word used in those verses also means "conflict" or "quarrel".

[Sonny]

I'll agree with that assessment

[BobRyan]

Obviously the "quarel" preceded the war in heaven. So the "war = just quarel" idea does not get to far given the facts.

Turns out "real life" is not as unpredictable as one might have at first imagined.

"War" – Transliterated - Polemos

In KJV NT it is used 18 times: - battle, 5; fight, 1; war, 12;

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

After much debate in heaven - open revolt resulted. The War in heaven was real as wars are on earth - might against might - "force against force".

The argument that God could zap everybody's brains and make them all Christians - so no atheists and no agnostics, nor even faithless pretenders to Christianity, is as compelling as the argument that God could simply Zap the evil angels out of existence if He chose in a war.

IT is true that "He could" in all of those cases - more interestingly however is what He chose to "do".

Some others on some other board might argue that "getting the actual facts" is "not nearly as fun as simply making stuff up that sounds neat to you" - but as we all know - that is not an option here.

So now - looking for some facts on this point above -

Quote:

Many of Satan’s sympathizers were inclined to heed the counsel of the loyal angels, and repent of their dissatisfaction, and be again received to the confidence of the Father and his dear Son. The mighty revolter then declared that he was acquainted with God’s law, and if he should submit to servile obedience, his honor would be taken from him. No more would he be intrusted with his exalted mission. He told them that himself and they also had now gone too far to go back, and he would brave the consequences; for to bow inservile worship to the Son of God he never would; that God would not forgive, and now they must assert their liberty and gain by force the position and authority which was not willingly accorded to them. {1SP 20.2}

The loyal angels hasten speedily to the Son of God, and acquaint him with what is taking place among the angels. They find the Father in conference with his beloved Son, to determine the means by which, for the best good of the loyal angels, the assumed authority of Satan could be forever down. The great God could at once have hurled this arch deceiver from Heaven; but this was not his purpose. He would give the rebellious an equal chance to measure strength and might with his own Son and his loyal angels. In this battle every angel would choose his own side, and be manifested to all. It would not have been safe to suffer any who united with Satan in his rebellion to continue to occupy Heaven. They had learned the lesson of genuine rebellion against the unchangeable law of God; and this is incurable. If God had exercised his power to punish this chief rebel, disaffected angels would not have been manifested; hence God took another course; for he would manifest distinctly to all the heavenly host his justice and his judgment. {1SP 21.1}

All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father, to have each case determined. Satan unblushingly made known his dissatisfaction that Christ should be preferred before him. He stood up proudly and urged that he should be equal with God, and should be taken into conference with the Father and understand his purposes. God informed Satan that to his Son alone he would reveal his secret purposes, and he required all the family in Heaven, even Satan, to yield him implicit, unquestioned obedience; but that he (Satan) had proved himself unworthy a place in Heaven. Then Satan exultingly pointed to his sympathizers, comprising nearly one half of all the angels, and exclaimed, These are with me! Will you expel these also, and make such a void in Heaven? He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ, and to defend his place in Heaven by force of might, strength against strength. {1SP 22.2}

And so also is the war in Rev 19 "real".

So getting beyond the easy part - you have two real wars.

The question is about the Rev 14 call to "take sides".

in Christ,

Bob

[doug yowell]

The original Greek word used in those verses also means "conflict" or "quarrel".

And the original Greek word for "fought" means...?

[BobRyan]

See my prior post - the "Greek word" for War (noun form) and fought (verb form) in the Rev 12:7 is used consistently in the KJV for battle, war, fight.

As with most of these terms - there are 3 or 4 possible meanings and the most common one is to be given serious consideration in the context of the verse.

No change here.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Bob, from what you said, I understand that you are arguing that there was a limit to God's patience and when that was exhausted with Lucifer, He turned to active warfare to run him out of Heaven. Your proof text is Revelation 12:7-9:

"And there was war in Heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven, and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."

To millions, these words have pictured an intense physical struggle between the forces loyal to Heaven and the rebels. It has been seen as a conflict involving the use of physical power versus physical power. Great artists have portrayed Christ at the head of hordes of shining angels standing with an unsheathed sword before which Lucifer is plunging downwards into the darkness of empty space.

But this is a superficial and inaccurate view of the nature of the struggle. It is a view consequent with the practice of seeing God's behavior as being identical to man's. There was war in Heaven, it is true, but not war as men fight. Satan was cast out, but it was God's way of doing it, not man's.

"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles are the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." Desire of Ages, p.759.

In that struggle then, God did not use physical force. This weapon is never found in His Kingdom but only in that of Satan's. Therefore, it was by another way that Satan was cast out of Heaven, never to return. God fought with none other than the weapons consistent with His Kingdom. It is difficult for sinful man to understand the nature of those weapons for they are so foreign to his experience and nature.

The struggle in Heaven was a very real one nonetheless. It was war, a total effort on Satan's part to change the entire structure of Heaven's order and organization. In order to succeed, he needed to convert the angels' allegiance away from God to himself. At that time the only sword Satan could use was that of deception, against which God used only the weapon of truth. The battle raged on over a considerable time span until the point was reached where the devil had penetrated as far as he could. Each angel had made his choice with sufficient numbers standing for the truth to enable God to maintain His position as Protector of the heavenly hosts. With God's continued presence assured, there was no hope of the proposed new order being established. The old and proven order would remain. But Satan's deformation had brought him into such disharmony with those principles that he found it impossible to remain where they continued to operate. To him, Heaven had become a place that was foreign, unacceptable, and unendurable, and he could not leave it quickly enough.

It was the truth of God which drove him out, not the use of any kind of physical force. The same reason for Satan's leaving Heaven is the reason why the wicked would never be happy if they were to go there. They would not be able to tolerate the place and would want to leave it as soon as possible. They would be driven out by their sheer unfitness to remain:

"Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to Heaven, and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there, every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor to God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sits upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for Heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of Heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion has unfitted them for Heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from Heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." The Great Controversy, 542,543.

Confirmation of this is already available. The worldly and ungodly today find that the society of true Christians engaged in devoted worship of God is intolerable to them and they desire only to leave such society. They are happier elsewhere. Satan's rejection of the ways and principles of God in exchange for other pursuits so worked changes in him that he could no longer suffer its holy atmosphere. Being there was such torture to his deranged nature that he had to go and go he did.

As Pharaoh's heart was hardened by his continual resistance of God's efforts to save him, so Lucifer's whole being was warped by his fighting off God's loving efforts to draw him and his followers back from the abyss into which their steps were surely taking them. This is how Satan was driven from Heaven, not by God directly driving him out, but by His efforts to save him.

sky

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9.

[Sonny]

"force against force"

You are watching to much TV, Bob.

You can't win against God in a war. Satan & his angels would have been destroyed in the wink of an eye. So I think you are wrong.

[Sonny]

"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles are the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." Desire of Ages, p.759.

Right on!

[Tom Wetmore]

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." - Ephesians 6:12.

Likewise the "war" in heaven between God and Lucifer was in a heavenly dimension between spiritual forces. God is spirit and not flesh and blood as we are. Nor is Satan. What took place in heaven was not a physical battle or struggle as we would know it. It was a spiritual thing. "War" is just a good word for creatures of flesh and blood to have some idea or understanding of it.

[ClubV12]

Sky makes some very good points about the details of the "war", interesting stuff worthy of contemplation.

The bible authors used terms and language man could understand and relate to on our level, so far below the understanding on God's level.

War, fight, cast out, all are applicable terms to the very real "battle" in heaven for mans understanding expressed in a very short and to the point way.

As a computer programmer, I've often thought of the bible wording as some "really tight code", nothing in there that doesn't have to be in there to get the program to work well.

Compared to Ellen Whites volumes and lengthy wording on any given subject, the bible is awesome in transmitting the basics of life in such short passages.

[skyblue888]

Yes, it is a code language. As a perfect example, the Lord had said to David,

"Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house." 2 Samuel 12:11.

This is how the pen of inspiration explains this language:

"Not that God prompted these evil acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin God did not exercise His power to prevent them." Patriarchs and Prophets, p.739.

sky

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles are the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." Desire of Ages, p.759.

Right on!

So Satan and Co. left heaven voluntarily just like Adam and Eve were (voluntarily, of course)driven out of the Garden of Eden? And the angel with the flaming sword was just subtle reminder that they didn't really want to be there anyway?

[doug yowell]

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." - Ephesians 6:12.

Likewise the "war" in heaven between God and Lucifer was in a heavenly dimension between spiritual forces. God is spirit and not flesh and blood as we are. Nor is Satan. What took place in heaven was not a physical battle or struggle as we would know it. It was a spiritual thing. "War" is just a good word for creatures of flesh and blood to have some idea or understanding of it.

That's a good way of putting it.

[BobRyan]

All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father, to have each case determined. Satan unblushingly made known his dissatisfaction that Christ should be preferred before him. He stood up proudly and urged that he should be equal with God, and should be taken into conference with the Father and understand his purposes. God informed Satan that to his Son alone he would reveal his secret purposes, and he required all the family in Heaven, even Satan, to yield him implicit, unquestioned obedience; but that he (Satan) had proved himself unworthy a place in Heaven. Then Satan exultingly pointed to his sympathizers, comprising nearly one half of all the angels, and exclaimed, These are with me! Will you expel these also, and make such a void in Heaven? He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ, and to defend his place in Heaven by force of might, strength against strength. {1SP 22.2}

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

"force against force"

You are watching to much TV, Bob.

You can't win against God in a war. Satan & his angels would have been destroyed in the wink of an eye. So I think you are wrong.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

I was shown Satan as he once was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede. I saw that he had so long bent himself to evil that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me tremble, it was so full of evil and satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible. {EW 152.3}

The violence of the storm increased, and there were mingled with the warring of the elements, the wailings of the people who had despised the authority of God. Trees, buildings, rocks, and earth, were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. And even Satan himself, who was compelled to be amid the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and wished them to live to practice their abominations, and increase their rebellion against the God of Heaven. He uttered imprecations against God, charging him with injustice and cruelty. Many of the people, like Satan, blasphemed God, ... {3SG 70.1}

While it is true that Angels are ministering spirits and that God Himself is spirit -- it is NOT true that they do not have physical form as well or that Satan cannot be placed in danger when put in certain physical contexts like the flood.

The "war in heaven" statement in Rev 12 is there because it most accurately reflects reality.

The intent of the author is accuracy not deception.

It is a common tactic in some churches to just "make stuff up" that sounds good to the congregation - but is not true to the text of scripture. Because it "sounds good" the people accept it no matter the fact that the scripture states things altogether differently on subjects like the War in heaven, Christ in the form of God, Man in the image of God etc.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

OK, God did not use real physical force to expel satan and his angels.

I suppose satan of his own volition will just jump into the "lake of fire" at the end?

Doesn't the Bible say they are to be "thrown" in the "lake of fire"?

[BobRyan]

So Satan and Co. left heaven voluntarily just like Adam and Eve were (voluntarily, of course)driven out of the Garden of Eden? And the angel with the flaming sword was just subtle reminder that they didn't really want to be there anyway?

Indeed.

Satan lost in a debate by not answering the final question in the time limit allowed. Being unnable to hold up his head - he and his followers stormed out of heaven never to return -- because they would always be embarrassed to admit they lost that final point.

Same deal with Adam - another college debate and out he went.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

OK, God did not use real physical force to expel satan and his angels.

I suppose satan of his own volition will just jump into the "lake of fire" at the end?

Doesn't the Bible say they are to be "thrown" in the "lake of fire"?

That too is another college debate forum and the wicked simply do not have the right answers - so in exreme embarrassment they toss themselves into the lake of fire.

[miz3]

That too is another college debate forum and the wicked simply do not have the right answers - so in exreme embarrassment they toss themselves into the lake of fire.

Of course we have Biblical proof that satan and the wicked will of their own accord will just jump into the "lake of fire"?

Why then does the Bible say they are "thrown" into the "lake of fire"?

Apparently the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

[Sonny]

Hmm we seem to have two contrasting views

Yes, yours is worldly and Tom's view is not. Like Israel wanted to be like the other nations (i.e., war like the other nations - have a king like the other nations) you want a God who is like you - a god of war.

John 18:35 (Pilate to Christ) "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"

36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were (of this world), my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

What does Jesus mean by "the world"? Go to 1 John 2:16 "For everything in the world--the lust of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world."

You see in this world under it's god, Satan, everything is about domination & conquest. We can see this is James 4:1

Where do wars and fightings among you come from? Don't they come from your lusts that war in your members? 2 You lust, and don't have. You kill, covet, and can't obtain. You fight and make war. ...4 You adulterers and adulteresses, don't you know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Clearly Christ's kingdom is not of this world. If it were Jesus would have called an army of angels.

Let's look at this:

Matt 26:50 Then they came and put hands on Jesus, and took him. 51 And one of those who were with Jesus put out his hand, and took out his sword and gave the servant of the high priest a blow, cutting off his ear.

52 Then says Jesus to him, Put up your sword again into its place: for all those who take the sword will come to death by the sword.

53 Does it not seem possible to you that if I make request to my Father he will even now send me an army of angels? 54 But how then would the Writings come true, which say that so it has to be?

Jesus came to save the world - the human race. He loved His enemies more than Himself. That's what the cross points to. If Christ was bent to Himself (the opposite of agape) then Christ would have fought like the world does. He would have called upon His Father, but He didn't. Why? He's not of this world, which means, "Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government."

[Sonny]

Why then does the Bible say they are "thrown" into the "lake of fire"?

First of all the book of Revelation is highly symbolic. It can't be understood through the human mind because humanity is polluted with self-interests and self-seeking. As Paul states,

Rom 3:13 Their throat is like an open place of death; with their tongues they have said what is not true: the poison of snakes is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of curses and bitter words: 15 Their feet are quick in running after blood; 16 Destruction and trouble are in their ways; 17 And of the way of peace they have no knowledge...

We need the mind of Christ...we need to think from God's point of view and not our the way of the world. Think about it...we justify violence. It's in our blood.

[abelisle]

It's interesting to see how EGW's statements on this topic so closely paraphrase John Milton's Paradise Lost. Which ironically she said she didn't read even though the book was seen in her library.

Maybe they were both inspired? Why not? Why should EGW be the only one?

Alex