War in heaven - War on Earth; Choosing sides

[Sonny]

The simple fact is we justify war because we have natures that are war-like. We need the mind of Christ.

[Sonny]

God sovereignly chose the course of action that Ex 7:3 states for the purpose which Ex 7:3 states....

Then He is a God of force....He forces man's wills. When He says come let us reason together, He really means see it My way through manipulation of events. Thus the god you create has attributes in common with Lucifer. Are you sure that you are not getting your gods mixed up?

After all there's the God of heaven, who loves His enemies more than Himself. And then there's the god of the world who uses force & compulsion.

[BobRyan]

A careful reading of Ex 7:3 does not support your accusation.

1. It cannot be denied that God deliberately gave Pharaoh the option of refusing God if he so chose - instead of simply overwhelming Pharaoh as in the examples I already gave for other situations recorded in the Bible.

2. It cannot be denied that God knows the future and that free-will-or-not God knew exactly what Pharoah would choose.

3. It cannot be denied that the Bible supports BOTH aspects of the problem - that Pharoah hardened his heart by his own choice AND that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by giving him gradually increasing levels of signs and tests.

(Why this nonsequitter is getting dragged into the thread on Rev 14 is a bit of a mystery).

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

"The battle they fought must be understood to be verbal rather than physical." - Stefanovic, p.386.

[Sonny]

...AND that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by giving him gradually increasing levels of signs and tests.

Sorry, it's not God's fault. He didn't harden Pharaoh's heart...pharaoh did.

[BobRyan]

Exodus 7:3

But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

God "could" have simply killed the Egyptians in a single night the way he killed the Assyrians that came to take Israel captive. Or He could have a massive demonstration of fire, power and smoke and thunder as he did at Sinai - Or fire coming down from heaven before the Pharaoh as He did with Elijah - Or He could simply overwhelm them with conviction so that they simply stood by and watched - as Christ did when he cleansed the temple at the start and end of his ministry on earth. But in this case God chose the slow gradual increase of signs so that Pharaoh would always consider the option "open" to harden his heart yet that much more.

Pharaoh acted out of his own free will -- and God let him in such as way that He magnified the true spirit behind Pharaoh's choices for all to see.

God sovereignly chose the course of action that Ex 7:3 states for the purpose which Ex 7:3 states - thus the Bible is accurate in BOTH statements saying that Pharoah hardened his heart AND saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

You can trust the Bible - as it turns out.

[Sonny]

You can trust the Bible - as it turns out.

Yes, but I can't trust your interpretation because it goes against free will!

[Sonny]

Here's a better reason:

The thing is this: who is responsible for sin? One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. That’s what it means. God is sovereign. Did God know that Lucifer would sin? Yes. Then why did He create him? That’s one of the big questions.

If God is sovereign, then He has allowed Satan to come in. He has allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve. This has created a problem and this was not solved on the cross. Let me give you an illustration. When Adam sinned and God came to visit him, what did he say to God when God asked why did you sin? He said, “This woman, whom You gave....” So upon whom was he putting the blame? On God. Today you will hear it all the time: “If God is love why is He allowing all the sicknesses and problems? If God is love, why is He allowing a drought in America?” These are the kind of questions that have to be solved if the great controversy is to come to an end.

So what does God do? God actually assumes the blame! He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. There is a text which I want you to look for, it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment.

[Tom Wetmore]

Bob,

Despite your repeated invocation of the H-G method, the superficial and selective observations and conclusions you have posted thus far don't seem to demonstrate actual application of that method.

[BobRyan]

Bob,

Despite your repeated invocation of the H-G method, the superficial and selective observations and conclusions you have posted thus far don't seem to demonstrate actual application of that method.

I welcome your efforts to demonstrate the possibility that your accusation above has substance to it.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

You can trust the Bible - as it turns out.

Yes, but I can't trust your interpretation because it goes against free will!

How so?

(quotes please)

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Notice that in the exchange below my appeal is to the H-G principle of "context" so essential to exegesis.

I argue that 2Thess 1 - is framing the context for 2Thess 2.

==================================

Quote:

It is not by physical force and might as we fight battles. Paul describes it as being "with the breath of His mouth". (2 Thess. 2:8)

The convoluted argument made there - only goes from the frying pan into the fire by appealing to 2Thess for a "debate to death" scenario.

Here is how 2Thess sets the context

2Thess 1 -

4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Notice that the righteous judgment of God does NOT result in "debate to death" as some may have imagined but rather the "dealing out of retribution" in flaming fire forcing the wicked to "pay the penalty of eternal destruction" - not at all of their choosing (as though the wicked were begging to be "tormented day and night in fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb and of His angels".

hence the use of the H-G model to tell us when something is symbolic vs literal

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

How so?

Come on, Bob. If God causes Pharaoh to harden his heart then God is forcing the will.

[Sonny]

"with the breath of His mouth"

The Bible is full of metaphors. Does God breath like us? Does He have lungs. No! God is spirit.

[BobRyan]

So many people so certain about just what God does and does not have "no matter the statements in the bible to the contrary".

In any case - the Dragon of Rev 12 is a symbol but the "devil" in Rev 12 is literal.

The Jesus of Rev 1 is real and the Beast of Rev 13 is a symbol.

And the list just goes on and on - following the H-G model of Hermeneutics for yielding an exegetically exact rendering of the meaning of the text.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

How so?

Come on, Bob. If God causes Pharaoh to harden his heart then God is forcing the will.

[Sonny]

"I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.""

"Pharaoh acted out of his own free will"

Contradiction!!!

[Sonny]

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. [1 Sam 16:14]

Does God send evil spirits into those who reject Him? Is God in control of evil spirits? If so he's controlling their wills.

[doug yowell]

"The battle they fought must be understood to be verbal rather than physical." - Stefanovic, p.386.

Why? Doesn't the text include the participation of angels? Doesn't the Bible reveal the physicality of angels? Why can't spiritual battles have physical consequences?

[doug yowell]

"The battle they fought must be understood to be verbal rather than physical." - Stefanovic, p.386.

The Greek word translated as "caste down" is ballo has a judicial connotation and is technical term for excommunication. This would not be an action by physical force but of verbal pronouncement of the sentence of being barred from heaven.

As an attorney you know that a judicial pronouncement is useless unless the sentence can be executed. (The old Andrew Jackson quote)As the text demonstrates, the rebellious angels (who have a physical being)were thrown out of heaven. The very context itself lends easily to an action undertaken on behalf of those who were not willing to leave on their own. It would also seem natural to assume that Satan is more than just a bad idea. In fact, it's strongly implied that he himself has a physical person. If created beings are factual it would only follow that whatever was entailed in the "war in heaven" it was part and parcel of a physical interaction.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

"I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.""

"Pharaoh acted out of his own free will"

Contradiction!!!

Only if you see the heart and the will as the same entity.

[Sonny]

Only if you see the heart and the will as the same entity.

The heart refers to the mind with its thoughts and emotions. The will is part of the mind.

[BobRyan]

As an attorney you know that a judicial pronouncement is useless unless the sentence can be executed. (The old Andrew Jackson quote)As the text demonstrates, the rebellious angels (who have a physical being)were thrown out of heaven. The very context itself lends easily to an action undertaken on behalf of those who were not willing to leave on their own. It would also seem natural to assume that Satan is more than just a bad idea. In fact, it's strongly implied that he himself has a physical person. If created beings are factual it would only follow that whatever was entailed in the "war in heaven" it was part and parcel of a physical interaction.

Which brings us to the physicality details about Satan, the Angels and God the Son found in this post and the two posts immediately preceding it on this thread.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post450726

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Exodus 7:3

But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

God "could" have simply killed the Egyptians in a single night the way he killed the Assyrians that came to take Israel captive. Or He could have a massive demonstration of fire, power and smoke and thunder as he did at Sinai - Or fire coming down from heaven before the Pharaoh as He did with Elijah - Or He could simply overwhelm them with conviction so that they simply stood by and watched - as Christ did when he cleansed the temple at the start and end of his ministry on earth. But in this case God chose the slow gradual increase of signs so that Pharaoh would always consider the option "open" to harden his heart yet that much more.

Pharaoh acted out of his own free will (when he chose to harden his heart)-- and God let him in such as way that He magnified the true spirit behind Pharaoh's choices for all to see.

God sovereignly chose the course of action that Ex 7:3 states for the purpose which Ex 7:3 states - thus the Bible is accurate in BOTH statements saying that Pharoah hardened his heart AND saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

You can trust the Bible - as it turns out.

[Sonny]

God said that He hardened Pharaoh's heart.