Sonny Posted June 9, 2011 Posted June 9, 2011 God said that He hardened Pharaoh's heart. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." [KJV] Quote
doug yowell Posted June 9, 2011 Posted June 9, 2011 Which brings us to the physicality details about Satan, the Angels and God the Son found in this post and the two posts immediately preceding it on this thread. http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post450726 in Christ, Bob Oh yeah.How'd I miss that before?? Quote
Sonny Posted June 9, 2011 Posted June 9, 2011 Again, the best I've found on why God makes these statements is from here: Read the whole thing. Then let's talk! Here's a small portion taken from the above link. Please read all of it with an open mind: So what does God do? God actually assumes the blame! He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. There is a text which I want you to look for, it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment. Quote
doug yowell Posted June 9, 2011 Posted June 9, 2011 The heart refers to the mind with its thoughts and emotions. The will is part of the mind. But the will is not the heart. The will is what has control over the thoughts and emotions. The will is what controls the heart so that one can decide to do what is right and not what is comfortable.So God can "harden the heart" without controlling the will. Quote
Sonny Posted June 9, 2011 Posted June 9, 2011 But the will is not the heart. The will is what has control over the thoughts and emotions. The will is what controls the heart so that one can decide to do what is right and not what is comfortable. So God can "harden the heart" without controlling the will. The will is where decisions are made...it's still apart of the mind. Human will has been weakened by the fall...by our human nature. To harden the heart is to turn against God. That's a decision of the mind involving the will. Quote
doug yowell Posted June 9, 2011 Posted June 9, 2011 But in this case God chose the slow gradual increase of signs so that Pharaoh would always consider the option "open" to harden his heart yet that much more. Pharaoh acted out of his own free will (when he chose to harden his heart)-- and God let him in such as way that He magnified the true spirit behind Pharaoh's choices for all to see. God sovereignly chose the course of action that Ex 7:3 states for the purpose which Ex 7:3 states - thus the Bible is accurate in BOTH statements saying that Pharoah hardened his heart AND saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. You can trust the Bible - as it turns out. Bob Many people seem to overlook the entire process that occurred during this interchange with Pharaoh.They assume that God was playing a sadistic game of Russian Roulette with Chatty Kathy.This is the underpinning of Reform theology.Paul's statements in Romans 9 are the validation of his statements about God's goodness and the sovereignty of man's will in Romans 1. Pharaoh's response to the gospel perfectly illustrates this. Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 9, 2011 Administrators Posted June 9, 2011 Several Questions. In one word what is the message or central theme of the book of Revelation? Who is the central character of the book? With regard to your reference to chapter 12, what is the central message in that chapter? (Hint it is the literary center of the book, physically in the exact middle of the book, figuratively the very heart of the book.) Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
BobRyan Posted June 10, 2011 Author Posted June 10, 2011 But in this case God chose the slow gradual increase of signs so that Pharaoh would always consider the option "open" to harden his heart yet that much more. Pharaoh acted out of his own free will (when he chose to harden his heart)-- and God let him in such as way that He magnified the true spirit behind Pharaoh's choices for all to see. God sovereignly chose the course of action that Ex 7:3 states for the purpose which Ex 7:3 states - thus the Bible is accurate in BOTH statements saying that Pharoah hardened his heart AND saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. You can trust the Bible - as it turns out. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted June 10, 2011 Author Posted June 10, 2011 Which brings us to the physicality details about Satan, the Angels and God the Son found in this post and the two posts immediately preceding it on this thread. http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post450726 in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted June 10, 2011 Author Posted June 10, 2011 In Rev 12 we find that there was "War in heaven" at one time - but at the cross Satan "saw that he had a short time" and was enraged at the church. In Rev 14 we find a kind of "who is on the Lord's Side" message in the first Angel's message "Fear God and give Glory to Him for the hour of His judgment had come. Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of water". And of course in Rev 19 we see "war on earth" - but this time it is God bringing the war to Satan's turf - not Satan bringing war to God's home field. It appears to me that Rev 14 is positioned as a kind of "choose up sides" statement. Like Moses coming down from the mountain and saying "who is on the Lord's side". What are your thoughts? Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 10, 2011 Administrators Posted June 10, 2011 Should I assume your answer of "Christ" is to both of the first two questions? and that getting back to your OP about war in heaven is the answer to my third question? Who is tossing out the book? And who is saying that no details are literally true? Differences over which details are symbolic and which are literal would seem far from tossing the whole book out, wouldn't it? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
BobRyan Posted June 10, 2011 Author Posted June 10, 2011 Tom - I would argue that the H-G model is helpful in determining the division between symbolic and literal in Revelation. In any case my OP question is about the "choose sides" motiff in Rev 14 as it precedes the 2nd coming. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Sonny Posted June 10, 2011 Posted June 10, 2011 Again, if war had occurred in heaven Satan and his angels would have been wiped out in the blink of God's eye... Quote
BobRyan Posted June 10, 2011 Author Posted June 10, 2011 Satan wished for a force against force - might against might contest and so God athough able to wipe them out in the blink of an eye - chose to grant Lucifer his wish. This was already addressed here - http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post450720 Perhaps you read it. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Sonny Posted June 10, 2011 Posted June 10, 2011 Satan wished for a force against force - might against might contest and so God athough able to wipe them out in the blink of an eye - chose to grant Lucifer his wish. This is baloney.....War is not of God. He doesn't fight. Look at Christ's life. Jesus said if you've see Me you've seen the Father. Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 11, 2011 Administrators Posted June 11, 2011 With regard to my questions... The first asked for a message or theme. While Christ would embody or personify that message and theme I am looking for a word that describes what that message or theme is about. What is the message Jesus is revealing in this book? I perhaps should have been more precise in my second question. Christ is the central person since the opening line is that this is the revelation of Jesus Christ, revealing him and by him. But what I had in mind is this - what is it that is used in the book most frequently to represent him symbolically? He is identified at least 4 or 5 times more frequently symbolically than he is by his literal name. How is Jesus most frequently portrayed symbolically throughout the book? This has very significant meaning and was done for a specific purpose. And the third question you missed. The very center of the book is found in 12:10-12. How does that message compare with what you are putting forward? Hint - The original readers would have received this as the message for them to carry them through whatever trials they were experiencing or would experience. And that provides the answer to my first question. (I like to visualize the delivery of the scroll from John wrapped equally around two rollers which would have meant that this was the page that was first seen when they opened it and began to unroll the scrolls.) Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
BobRyan Posted June 11, 2011 Author Posted June 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: BobRyan Satan wished for a force against force - might against might contest and so God athough able to wipe them out in the blink of an eye - chose to grant Lucifer his wish. This is baloney... Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
cheddar Posted June 11, 2011 Posted June 11, 2011 I choose Sonny - He believes in 1888 and you don't Quote
BobRyan Posted June 11, 2011 Author Posted June 11, 2011 you are free to choose Sonny as your prophet. As I said - it is a free will universe. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
cheddar Posted June 11, 2011 Posted June 11, 2011 you are free to choose Sonny as your prophet. As I said - it is a free will universe. in Christ, Bob Quote
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