WHO IS GREATER? GOD OR THE LAW?

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

What Paul wrote in Gal. 5:14 is clearly a lie....

Why worry about the first four when you are keeping the last six - especially the spirit of the law?

Again, to those who think that they are righteous, then I say live Christ's life:

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Are you doing this, Rich?

Show me ONE place in the Covenant where God said to love your neighbor or your neighbor's wife as yourself?

God wrote with His fingers: "I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children on the third and fourth generations of THOSE who hate Me,; but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me AND KEEP [all] My Commandments." (Ex. 20:5-6 inpart)

Sonny, it is clear to me that you have no clue as to what Jesus said and taught as your understanding has been tainted by words of those who never knew Jesus and were responsible for the invention of the Christian religion.

Do you know what Jesus meant when He said "I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire...? (See Rev. 3:18) And: "Those whom I love I reprove and discipline; be sealous therefore, and repent." (See Rev. 3:19)

[Sonny]

Sonny, it is clear to me that you have no clue as to what Jesus said and taught.....

All I know is you aren't living Christ's life....And therefore you aren't keeping the law.

[skyblue888]

How can God be above the law if the law is a transcript of His nature? The law of God is not mere letters. The law of God is life, His own life, His character. Just because it was adapted for fallen men does not mean that the law is not equal to God's nature. The law and God are the same. The moral law is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It is Spirit and Life.

But if we receive the moral law only as a set of rules engraved on stones or written with ink, then yes it is only that, a set of rules of dos and don'ts... but when we receive that same law in Christ, we receive God.

sky

[miz3]

What a stupid question! The "Law" is a COVENANT between Him and those of us humans who want this God to be their God. Period! Have you ever read it? If so, then tell me please, how could God be above the Covenant when it was He who established the agreement?

For a "stupid" question it has generated a lot of discussion. It has revealed a lot about you, Dr. Rich!

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. Also, you are free to participate or not participate.

[Dr. Rich]

How can God be above the law if the law is a transcript of His nature? The law of God is not mere letters. The law of God is life, His own life, His character. Just because it was adapted for fallen men does not mean that the law is not equal to God's nature. The law and God are the same. The moral law is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It is Spirit and Life.

But if we receive the moral law only as a set of rules engraved on stones or written with ink, then yes it is only that, a set of rules of dos and don'ts... but when we receive that same law in Christ, we receive God.

sky

How do we as humans know what the covenant would be except for it to be communicated by God to humans as it was for Israel and all others who wanted this same God to be theirs. Making the covenant out to be the same as the law of nature is downright blasphemy. Making it out to be loving your neighbor is also downright blasphemy. Making the covenant out to be the same as God is also downright blasphemy. Why? All of these comments are falsly testifying about God and the Holy Spirit.

Sorry sky, but your words are just more "New Age" religion mixed with your ow thoughts. I will stick to the words of Jesus and the OT for the facts, thank you!

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Sonny, it is clear to me that you have no clue as to what Jesus said and taught.....

All I know is you aren't living Christ's life....And therefore you aren't keeping the law.

Sonny,

Who gave you the authority to pass this judgement on Dr. Rich.

In making your statement concerning Dr. Rich you are breaking the 1st and 2nd Commandments of the Covenant because you are putting yourself in the place of God in passing judgement on someone whom you have never personally met, don't know, and have no idea what his relationship is to God, the Covenant, or the Kingdom of Heaven. You have made this statement from a sense of self-righteousness which stems from your understanding, or perhaps misunderstanding, of the character of God.

I would be very careful in passing judgement on another person in this manner, lest this same judgement be passed upon you by the ONE who has the authority to judge. It is my impression that you owe both God and Dr. Rich an apology for making this statement; to God for assuming His role in the judgement, and to Dr. Rich for making an accusation which you cannot back up.

[phkrause]

Show me ONE place in the Covenant where God said to love your neighbor or your neighbor's wife as yourself?

Does he have to? When we read the Bible at least in the NT and follow the life of Christ, that's exactly what he did, did he not? Seems to me that he is showing us how to live with others.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

God wrote with His fingers: "I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children on the third and fourth generations of THOSE who hate Me,; but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me AND KEEP [all] My Commandments." (Ex. 20:5-6 inpart)

Sonny, it is clear to me that you have no clue as to what Jesus said and taught as your understanding has been tainted by words of those who never knew Jesus and were responsible for the invention of the Christian religion.

So I take it than that not one of us knows Christ if we go by what your saying here! What you are saying than is that we can't believe Paul because he's not an eyewitness to Jesus, well neither are you, but you expect us than to believe your non-eyewitness understanding. Come on Dr. Rich, I might not always agree with Sonny, but I'm more inclined to except his non-eyewitness understanding to yours. Sorry but that's my opinion.

[Sonny]

Sonny, Who gave you the authority to pass this judgement on Dr. Rich.

"There's none righteous, no, not even one." [Paul]

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900 [EGW]

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Show me ONE place in the Covenant where God said to love your neighbor or your neighbor's wife as yourself?

Does he have to? When we read the Bible at least in the NT and follow the life of Christ, that's exactly what he did, did he not? Seems to me that he is showing us how to live with others.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

God wrote with His fingers: "I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children on the third and fourth generations of THOSE who hate Me,; but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me AND KEEP [all] My Commandments." (Ex. 20:5-6 inpart)

Sonny, it is clear to me that you have no clue as to what Jesus said and taught as your understanding has been tainted by words of those who never knew Jesus and were responsible for the invention of the Christian religion.

So I take it than that not one of us knows Christ if we go by what your saying here! What you are saying than is that we can't believe Paul because he's not an eyewitness to Jesus, well neither are you, but you expect us than to believe your non-eyewitness understanding. Come on Dr. Rich, I might not always agree with Sonny, but I'm more inclined to except his non-eyewitness understanding to yours. Sorry but that's my opinion.

Yes, you should be sorry, because it is NOT my words that are important! I have always presented the words of Jesus Christ and the OT as what is important, not the words of others who have no clue as to what Jesus said or taught.

Have you read in Rev. 3 where there will be a few who overcome sin and become sealed by God? How will these FEW do this? I will tell you HOW: They do this by keepping ALL of the Ten Commandments of God and the Testimony (words) of Jesus Christ! (Rev. 12:17).

Have you also read about the TWO WITNESSES in Rev. 11:3-13? What do you suppose they will be testifying about? They testify to the truth which is the words of Jesus Christ and the OT! Please read where the whole world makes fun of them and parties when they are killed in verses 10-13. It is MY opinion that those among these people will be the ones who mistakenly believe in the words of Paul and EGW. (See Rev. 21:8 and 22:15)

[Overaged]

You are judging Sonny

[Sonny]

You are judging Sonny

No, judging is deciding your eternal destiny. I'm merely quoting the Bible. Can't deal with it? rewrite the Bible.

[miz3]

Show me ONE place in the Covenant where God said to love your neighbor or your neighbor's wife as yourself?

Here it is, Dr. Rich!

"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Matthew 22:37-40.

It states that these are the WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST!

It also states that these are not just part of but actually the WHOLE LAW!

The LAW being what you label as the Covenant.

[miz3]

Some discussion, huh!

That is for a stupid question, Dr. Rich!

[Gerr]

They are one and the same!

Is the transcript/copy the same as the original?

[phkrause]

Here it is, Dr. Rich!

"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Matthew 22:37-40.

It states that these are the WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST!

It also states that these are not just part of but actually the WHOLE LAW!

The LAW being what you label as the Covenant.

Good one miz3, and Matthew I believe is an eye witness! But we'll see, maybe Matthew will be taken off the list of "the Good Books" of the NT.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr.Rich

Show me ONE place in the Covenant where God said to love your neighbor or your neighbor's wife as yourself?

Here it is, Dr. Rich!

"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Matthew 22:37-40. It states that these are the WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST!

It also states that these are not just part of but actually the WHOLE LAW!

The LAW being what you label as the Covenant.

WHAT? I said to show ONE place "IN THE COVENANT"! Of course I could have presented what Jesus said about loving God and man being what the WRITTEN COVENANT is based upon, but I didn't. And no, Jesus did not paraphrase the Covenant either! It states that the Covenant's written words were based upon those two points, NOT that this was a 'new commandment! Any 5th grader would know that!

But you brought up a good point and that is this: Paul said twice that the whole "Law" (meaning the ten commandments) were based upon loving your neighbor as yourself ONLY! Paul intentionally left out the Loving God part. This is called deception by omission. It is a BIG lie and blasphemy to even say such a thing! (Rom. 13:8-9 and Gal. 5:14) I mean, what a dumb thing to do, to intentionally leave out the "first and greatest commandment"!

[Dr. Rich]

Sonny wrote: ""There's none righteous, no, not even one." [Paul]"

Well then, are you saying that what is written in Matt. 1:19, Rev. 3:4-5 & 12; and Rev. 14:5? are lies? Either the eyewitnesses lied or Paul lied. It's your choice to pick the right answer.

[Guest]

Show me ONE place in the Covenant where God said to love your neighbor or your neighbor's wife as yourself?

The last six commandments are about nothing else BUT loving your neighbor, you dope, er..ol buddy.

I thought you said you studied the words of Jesus?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matt 22:37-40

[John317]

Interestingly, Ellen White wrote that Christ was the only one who could come here to live and die to save us because He alone was not subject to law. All of the angels and other created beings are subject to law, but Christ, the Creator, is not. He is above law since He made it.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Do you have that quote handy so you could cite it to us by posing it? Not just the reference but the actual statement.

\I think that would be interesting. At least to me it would be interesting.

Here's one:

Quote:

The children of Israel were anciently commanded to make an offering for the entire congregation to purify them from ceremonial defilement. This sacrifice was a red heifer and represented the more perfect offering that should redeem from the pollution of sin. This was an occasional sacrifice for the purification of all those who had necessarily or accidentally touched the dead. All who came in contact with death in any way were considered ceremonially unclean. This was to forcibly impress the minds of the Hebrews with the fact that death came in consequence of sin and therefore is a representative of sin. The one heifer, the one ark, the one brazen serpent, impressively point to the one great offering, the sacrifice of Christ. {FLB 199.2}

This heifer was to be red, which was a symbol of blood. It must be without spot or blemish, and one that had never borne a yoke. Here, again, Christ was typified. The Son of God came voluntarily to accomplish the work of atonement. There was no obligatory yoke upon Him, for He was independent and above all law. The angels, as God's intelligent messengers, were under the yoke of obligation; no personal sacrifice of theirs could atone for the guilt of fallen man. Christ alone was free from the claims of the law to undertake the redemption of the sinful race. . . . {FLB 199.3}

Jesus might have remained at His Father's right hand, wearing His kingly crown and royal robes. But He chose to exchange all the riches, honor, and glory of heaven for the poverty of humanity, and His station of high command for the horrors of Gethsemane and the humiliation and agony of Calvary. . . . {FLB 199.4}

The wounded hands, the pierced side, the marred feet, plead eloquently for fallen man, whose redemption is purchased at such an infinite cost. Oh, matchless condescension! Neither time nor events can lessen the efficacy of the atoning sacrifice.

200

{FLB 199.5}

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Interestingly, Ellen White wrote that Christ was the only one who could come here to live and die to save us because He alone was not subject to law.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law,....

Ellen White is saying that the pre-incarnate Christ-- NOT Jesus of Nazareth-- was above all law. Ellen White agrees with Paul's statement of Gal. 4: 4, that the man Christ Jesus was born under the law. See FLB 199.3:

Quote:

The Son of God came voluntarily to accomplish the work of atonement. There was no obligatory yoke upon Him, for He was independent and above all law. The angels, as God's intelligent messengers, were under the yoke of obligation; no personal sacrifice of theirs could atone for the guilt of fallen man. Christ alone was free from the claims of the law to undertake the redemption of the sinful race. . . .

[John317]

Sonny wrote: ""There's none righteous, no, not even one." [Paul]"

Well then, are you saying that what is written in Matt. 1:19, Rev. 3:4-5 & 12; and Rev. 14:5? are lies? Either the eyewitnesses lied or Paul lied. It's your choice to pick the right answer.

Here again your argument needlessly makes Paul and Jesus appear to disagree with one another. Actually, of course, Paul is quoting the Psalms. See Ps. 14: 1,3.

Notice that the context of Paul's statement in Romans 3: 10 is showing that all humankind is sinful and has committed sin. The entire Bible supports Paul. God alone-- including Christ-- is absolutely righteous and perfect.

[skyblue888]

That cd rom is really coming handy, isn't it John?

[Dr. Rich]

Yes John317, how can anyone argue with that my friend? I guess God didn't consider Noah, Enoch, Abraham, David, Moses, Joseph and Elijah, as with many others, righteous after all. I am sure the "24 Elders" in heaven are happy you wrote that! Go figure?

By the way, were the "Psalms" considered part of the "Law and the Prophets" (Scripture) that Jesus read and taught from? How about Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Songs of Solomon?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

God and Christ are not subject to law. They made the law and therefore God is greater than all law. However, the law is an expression of God's character, so there is no conflict between God's character and His law. The law was written to meet humankind in our condition. It wasn't written for God.

Sounds like Washington & our leaders. They make the rules for us, but they consider themselves exempt.

The Bible states that "love, is not self-seeking". The Greek for love is agape. The Bible also tells us that "God is love". Compared to each other we get, "God, is not self-seeking".

....The source of agape - a love that is not self-seeking - comes from God. Agape, we are told, is the fulfillment of the law.

So I don't think you can infer that God can do what He wants - that He is above His law. His law is a mere expression of His love.

Now "yes", the Ten Commandments don't all apply to God. I.E., the first four.

Also, “Honor your father and your mother" does not apply because God has no mother or father. Yet the principle is there....If God did have a father and mother He would honor them.

“You shall not murder" applies to God. It's not in His nature to murder.

God never murders. Murder is the wrongful taking of a human life. God has never wrongfully taken a human life. But the Bible give us many evidences that God has righteously and lovingly taken human life. For instance: (The flood): Gen. 6:13; 7:23; (Destruction of Sodom); 19: 24, 29; (The drowning of the Egyptians in the Red Sea): Ex. 14: 25-28.

The Bible says straight-forwardly that God has "killed".

I'm fully aware of the various interpretations of these verses which attempt to show that God has never taken a human life, but the Bible record is straight-forward and clear.

“

Originally Posted By: Sonny

You shall not commit adultery" doesn't apply to God because He isn't a sexual being.

“You shall not steal" doesn't apply to God because He made everything. But at the same time God does not think selfishly...Like "that's mine". He lives to serve.....

“You shall not give false testimony" applies to God. "God cannot lie"

"You shall not covet" does apply to God because coveting and self-seeking are one and the same.

Saying that Christ is above all law does not contradict the truth that God is love and that God is not self-seeking.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Show me ONE place in the Covenant where God said to love your neighbor or your neighbor's wife as yourself?

The last six commandments are about nothing else BUT loving your neighbor, you dope, er..ol buddy. I thought you said you studied the words of Jesus?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matt 22:37-40

Richard, I just saw a news spot on tv where the gays in the Gay Pride parade were saying that people should just allow people to love one another. Do you suppose this is what God's covenant is all about? Is the words of John Linnon's song 'All you need is Love' the same as God's covenant?

Is God's love as found in His covenant the same type of love as what Paul wrote in 1Cor. 13? Paul said that love is not jealous yet in God's He said He is a jealous God. Paul said that love does not take into account a wrong suffered. God's covenant said the opposit to those who hate him, even to the third and fourth generation! God will not leave anyone unpunished for taking His Name in vain.

You see Richard, I could go on and on. What Paul wrote about his type of love is anything but true love! And the thing is, I hear this trash talk at almost every wedding.

Thou shall not murder is not about love. I have heard of people murdering in the name of love--as the muslims do. How about the guy who murdered in the name of love for unborn babies?

Thou shall not commit adultery is not about love. Shoot, how many today 'love' one another by committing adultery? Huh?

Well, you should get the picture, and if you don't, then don't blame me.