WHO IS GREATER? GOD OR THE LAW?

[John317]

Dr. Rich has a few things in common with the Ebionites, such as his objection to Paul, but he's not one of them, really.

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks John317. The 'Dead Sea Scrolls' were thought to have been written by them (Ebionites) before Jerusalem was overtaken. They called Paul "a spouter of lies" it is alleged, as did 'all' of those in Asia who had turned away from Paul's teachings (2Tim. 1:15).

It does not appear that the group called 'Ebionites' existed after 80 A.D., but I really don't know too much about them. Look, it's not just about Paul, but anyone now dead or alive that teaches people a different gospel than what Jesus taught which was the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. Acts has some serious problems too as does Luke and Hebrews. In fact, it is my own opinion that the ONLY book that was not chaged at all was the book of Revelation because no one understood it enough to change anything. Jesus never called His own words "scripture" as He called them the Testimony of Jesus.

[miz3]

Would this then make Dr. Rich half ebionite?

[Gustave]

Thanks John317. The 'Dead Sea Scrolls' were thought to have been written by them (Ebionites) before Jerusalem was overtaken. They called Paul "a spouter of lies" it is alleged, as did 'all' of those in Asia who had turned away from Paul's teachings (2Tim. 1:15).

[Dr. Rich]

Gustave, look friend, don't go placing a square peg in a round hole. Talk all you want about what others teach or don't teach, the only thing that Jesus told His Own disciples as found in the last chapter and verses of Matthew is to go to ALL the nations and this meant to the gentiles too. They were to teach them to observe everything that Jesus said and taught. They didn't have their own gospel to teach as did Paul.

So since Jesus sent out His disciples to the gentiles too, then why did Jesus need Paul? Huh? He didn't!

What you read in Acts is highly suspect because of the prejudice for Paul's words. There was NOT a so called Jeruselem counsel, there was THE WAY. James, the brother of Jesus usurped what Peter was to have been because he said he had the same type of 'revelations' as did Paul. And this from the guy who at one time attempted to get his brother killed? What gives with that?

Did you know that Paul and James had a fight? How was that for unity?

The Roman Catholic church was started by using Paul's gospel, not the one Jesus taught. They combined the religions of Christian, Jews and pagan to make it so everyone would be happy.

The SDA church came out of all of these other religions, but now has gone back to what the Catholic doctrine of Paul's gospel. How sad!

[Gustave]

Gustave, look friend, don't go placing a square peg in a round hole. Talk all you want about what others teach or don't teach, the only thing that Jesus told His Own disciples as found in the last chapter and verses of Matthew is to go to ALL the nations and this meant to the gentiles too. They were to teach them to observe everything that Jesus said and taught. They didn't have their own gospel to teach as did Paul.

[Dr. Rich]

Jesus was Michael before being placed into the womb of Mary so he could be 'born' as a son of man. He was already the Son of God, so now He could be called the son of man and the Son of God.

Tell me the real reason why God did not make His month to go evenly into His year and then we will talk about it.

[Gustave]

Jesus was Michael before being placed into the womb of Mary so he could be 'born' as a son of man. He was already the Son of God, so now He could be called the son of man and the Son of God.

[Gustave]

I knew you were Catholic Gustave, I remember when you came here and posted some last year for a while.

Indeed, I should review some of the topics going back then...

[miz3]

Jesus was Michael before being placed into the womb of Mary so he could be 'born' as a son of man. He was already the Son of God, so now He could be called the son of man and the Son of God.

Do you have proof that Jesus and Michael are the same being?

Here are all the texts in the entire Bible that mention Michael as a heavenly being.

1. "But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia."

Daniel 10:13.

2. "but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince."

Daniel 10:21.

3. "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

Daniel 12:1

4. "But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”"

Jude 1:9.

5. "And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back."

Revelation 12:7.

These are the only five places where "Michael" is mentioned as a heavenly being in the entire Bible. How do we get that this heavenly being is Jesus Christ? It does not overtly state that this is Jesus Christ and I see no contextual inferences that this is Jesus Christ.

So what's up?

[Dr. Rich]

Ex. 3:2,4,6,7,8,13,14,15

Ex. 23:20,21,22,23

Isa. 63:8-10

Dan. 9:25 (key texts)

Dan. 10:13 and 21.

Dan. 12:1 (key text)

Jn. 8:24,58 (key text)

Rev. 12

Enjoy!

[miz3]

Ex. 3:2,4,6,7,8,13,14,15

Ex. 23:20,21,22,23

Isa. 63:8-10

Dan. 9:25 (key texts)

Dan. 10:13 and 21.

Dan. 12:1 (key text)

Jn. 8:24,58 (key text)

Rev. 12

1. Exodus chapter 3 only states that an "angel" was present in the bush. It does not say that, that angel was actually the Lord God (the Father and/or Jesus Christ).

Thus, you fail on this text!

2. Exodus chapter twenty-three is just like Exodus chapter three in which an angel was present but that angel was not necessarily God (the Father and/or Jesus Christ).

Again, you fail on this text!

3. Again, an angel is clearly present but the angel is most definitely not The Savior.

Once again you fail on this text!

4. All the Daniel text are the ones I quoted and so you cannot use these texts for obvious reasons. See my post on these texts.

5. John chapter eight says absolutely nothing on this subject!

6. Revelation twelve is also a text I used. See my post on this text.

Sorry Dr. Rich you did not answer my post!

Why? Because none of these texts tell us that Michael and Jesus Christ are the same Being!

Based on that we must then stand on the fact that Michael and Jesus Christ are really two different beings!

[Gustave]

Daniel 10,12

Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. BUT the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: BUT, lo, Michael, ONE OF the chief princeS, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

Michael was "one" OF other high ranking PrinceS...

...And in this specific case it precludes him from being 'God'.

In the third year of King Cyrus of Babylon - on the 24th day of the 1st month...

...Daniel has a vision of future events which follows a 21 day fast.

...Where Daniel ate no flesh or bread and drank no wine.

The angel which comes to Daniel informs him that God heard Daniels prayer on day 1 of the fast...

...And THAT angel was dispatched to deliver Daniel the message.

...However THAT angel was held up by an evil angel.

Verse 12

for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words

Verse 13 - A

BUT the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days

Verse 13- b

BUT, lo, Michael, one OF the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Verse 14

Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Daniel initiates his fast AND on the 1st day God hears Daniel's prayer AND dispatches an angel...

...Daniel's angel is HELD UP by an evil arch-angel for 21 DAYS.

...UNTIL one OF the chief princes comes to help Daniel's angel.

Daniel's angel is speaking to him on the "24th DAY"....

...21 - 24 = 3 DAYS - as in 3 days it took for "Christ" working with another angel.

...To soften up the evil arch-angel ENOUGH so that Christ could hold it at bay BY HIMSELF.

...Thus allowing Daniel's angel the time to break free from combat and deliver the message.

This is CLASSIC Arianism at it's very best....

...It's ONLY purpose is to demonstrate Christ isn't God.

It's preposterous to think that Christ, WHO in reality CREATED the angels, REQUIRES help from an angel...

...Whereas Christ and the other angel fight the evil arch-angel for 72 hours.

...The result being that the evil angel was softened up enough Christ could handle it himself.

...Thus allowing the other angel to be able to leave and deliver the prophetic message meaning to Daniel!

[miz3]

Excellent points Gustave!

[Dr. Rich]

Michael was the Prince of the Kingdom of Heaven (at that time it was the Hebrews). As the Prince of the Kingdom of Heaven, He rules with His King Father.

Look, if you don't want to see this then that is your own choice. But the official SDA stand on this is that Michael became Jesus and the reference for this are the verses that I gave above. Case closed.

[miz3]

I don't care whose human official stand on this is!

The Bible states that Michael is an archangel. The Bible never ever states that Michael is Jesus Christ!

Thus, it is not a fact that anyone cam claim from the Bible.

As you said people can make up whatever they want but the fact is the Bible never, ever says that Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ or part of the Godhead in any way shape or form!

So Dr. Rich are you going to make up your own facts and Truth or are you going to agree with the Bible which says that Michael the archangel is an angel and is not any part of the Godhead?

NOW THE CASE IS CLOSED!

[Gustave]

Michael was the Prince of the Kingdom of Heaven (at that time it was the Hebrews). As the Prince of the Kingdom of Heaven, He rules with His King Father.