the true grace of God which brings salvation

[skyblue888]

Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21.

What is this kingdom of God within you? "The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom.14:17.

Is this not the kingdom of His grace?

It is the will and the good pleasure of the Father that His grace be with us to deliver us from every evil work and to preserve us for His heavenly Kingdom. (2 Tim.4:22,18)

Therefore, to all who believe from the heart that "the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf," (S.C.36) this commandment is a promise:

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." Rev.22:21.

For they understand that "He speaks and it is done!" Psalm 33:9. The grace of God is immediately with them for "He commands and it stands fast." Ps.33:9; Rom.5:1,2; 16:24-26.

His grace is with them to work in them both to will and to do God's good pleasure for His grace is "exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." (1 Tim.1:14) So "This is the true grace of God in which they stand". 1 Peter 5:12; Rom.5:2; Acts 4:33. It is "the grace of God that brings salvation to all men." (Titus 2:11)

And this "grace of life" (1 Peter 3:7) which is thus received is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

"The Scriptures are to be received as God's word to us, not merely written but spoken." M.H.122.

Any comment?

sky :)

[Scion]

Sounds good to me It is interesting that Christ says to "seek first the kingdom," but also that it is "inside" of us. Some New Agers would probably have a field day with that one... but the basic concept is a Christian one. It is "inside" us that the Godhead dwells when we are converted, and that motivates us to act from faith. The difference between us and the New Age mindset seems to be this: in their view the power and grace has always been inside us as a part of our inherent "godhood." But in the Christian worldview these are gifts from outside of us, from the true God Himself, who puts them there when He enters the heart by the Holy Spirit.

[skyblue888]

Well said Scion. I fully agree with you that there is no such thing as "inherent godhood" or "inherent goodness" from the point of view of the creature. Though the grace of God is moving in and through all it cannot be said that it is dwelling in the heart by faith until it is given free course to work both to will and to do God's good pleasure and that doesn't happen until the sinner has been convicted of sin and made to daily trust wholly in the merits of His Redeemer for his acceptance with God.

God bless.

sky

[skyblue888]

"And now brethren I commend you to God and to the Word of His grace which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified." Acts 20:32.

Over the years I had often wondered what "the word of His grace" meant.

To those who hang their helpless souls upon the merits of Jesus Christ, to them this word is sent:

"Grace be with you" and this grace of God is with them immediately to do for them those things which it is impossible for them to do for themselves.

In other words, those who, hour by hour, moment by moment, rest in the merits of Jesus for their salvation will look at the ten commandments as promises to them for to them they are the voice of God from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise. They can appreciate these words:

"In every command and in every promise of the Word of God is the power, the very life of God, by which the command may be fulfilled and the promise realized. He who by faith receives the word is receiving the very life and character of God." C.O.L.38.

This is receiving the ten commandments, not as merely written, but as spoken, that is, as the voice of God speaking to the soul in promise. They have been made to understand that "The creative energy that called the worlds into existence is in the word of God. This word imparts power; it begets life. Every command is a promise; accepted by the will, received into the soul, it brings with it the life of the Infinite One. It transforms the nature and re-creates the soul in the image of God. The life thus imparted is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God shall man live." Education, 126.

Thus the law of God's mouth is to them the word of His grace. It is full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

"Grant me Thy law graciously." Psalm 119:29. "All Your commandments are truth." Psalm 119:151.

So those who habitually dwell upon Christ and His all-sufficient merits, resting in the merits of Christ for their acceptance with God, receive the law of ten commandments from His mouth and they exclaim, "The law of Your mouth is better to me than thousands of shekels of gold and silver." "I will never forget Your commmandments for by them You have given me life." Psalm 119:72,93.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21.

What is this kingdom of God within you? "The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom.14:17.

Is this not the kingdom of His grace?

It is the will and the good pleasure of the Father that His grace be with us to deliver us from every evil work and to preserve us for His heavenly Kingdom. (2 Tim.4:22,18)

Therefore, to all who believe from the heart that "the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf," (S.C.36) this commandment is a promise:

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." Rev.22:21.

For they understand that "He speaks and it is done!" Psalm 33:9. The grace of God is immediately with them for "He commands and it stands fast." Ps.33:9; Rom.5:1,2; 16:24-26.

His grace is with them to work in them both to will and to do God's good pleasure for His grace is "exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." (1 Tim.1:14) So "This is the true grace of God in which they stand". 1 Peter 5:12; Rom.5:2; Acts 4:33. It is "the grace of God that brings salvation to all men." (Titus 2:11)

And this "grace of life" (1 Peter 3:7) which is thus received is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

"The Scriptures are to be received as God's word to us, not merely written but spoken." M.H.122.

Any comment?

sky

It is interesting to me that you prove your point using texts from everyone but Jesus Christ. How can that be? Is it possible that Jesus Christ does not teach what is obviously taught by everyone BUT Him?

And then in a later post you quote John 1:14 and as usual don't bother to look up the meaning of the Greek word that you assume means 'grace' as these others teach. The word for 'grace' in this text DOES NOT mean grace in the sense of 'salvation by grace through faith'. The word is 'charis' (Srong's 5463) which simply means graciousness, as in graciousness of manner.

For my sake please show me where Jesus Christ taught what you are trying to prove that He taught using His own words as given to His eyewitnesses (Matthew and John). I would certainly appreciate it.

[skyblue888]

The Holy Spirit is the grace of God. Of Christ it was written,

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,

Because He has anointed Me to preach

the Gospel to the poor..." Isaiah 61:1.

Jesus quoted these words that Sabbath

morning in the synagogue. Luke 4:16-22.

The "grace" of God is the Spirit.

To be anointed with the Spirit is

to receive the grace of God.

It is said that "great grace" was upon the disciples at

Pentecost. (Acts 4:33)

We all know that this is referring to the

fact that they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

sky

[skyblue888]

Adventism teaches that the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour are the foundation of the Christian's faith. In other words, Adventism teaches that the MERITS of Christ's INFINITE SACRIFICE are SUFFICIENT to present to the Father in our behalf in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This gift cannot be excelled and it brings the righteousness of Christ into the life and it is made manifest in obedience to the moral law of ten commandments. The righteousness of Christ accomplishes everything, filling up the measure of the law's requirements.

So, as you can see, Adventism teaches that righteousness is obedience to the law; the law demands obedience; but the sinner is incapable of rendering it. The only way the sinner can attain to obedience to the law is through faith. By faith He can BRING to God the MERITS of Christ. Then Christ places upon him His own merits, the merits of His infinite sacrifice, and thus the sinner is made a partaker of the divine nature.

Let me put it another way. By faith, the repentant sinner sees in the midst of the throne One bearing in hands and feet and side the marks of the suffering endured to reconcile man to God. He sees a Father, Infinite, dwelling in light unapproachable, yet receiving him to Himself through the merits of His Son. The cloud of vengeance that threatened only misery and despair, in the light reflected from the cross reveals the writing of God: Live, sinner, live! ye penitent, beleiving soul, live! I have paid a ransom!

"Out of Zion the Lord has commanded the blessing, even life forevermore." Psalm 133:3. "I know that His commandment is: Live forever!" John 12:50.

Adventism teaches that the believing sinner shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of his own finite weakness and learn that he must daily apply to the merits of Christ that he may become a vessel fit for the Master's use.

This is Adventism in a nutshell.

As we acknowledge before God our appreciation of Christ's merits (the merits of His sufferings) fragrance is given to our intercessions. As we approach God through the virtue of the Redeemer's merits, Christ places us close by His side, encircling us with His human arm while with His divine arm He grasps the throne of the Infinite. He places His own divine merits in the censor in our hands to encourage our petitions.

This is Adventism, the Gospel in clear, distinct lines. All who believe this have nothing to be ashamed of. On the contrary, they have all the reasons in the world to "rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory." (1 Peter 1:8)

How can they not rejoice when it is their privilege to claim the merits of the Son of God in order that they may be clothed with the glistening vesture of Christ's righteousness which accomplishes everything, working in them both to will and to do God's good pleasure (Phil.2:13) and God's good pleasure is expressed in the precepts of His holy law. (Rom.2:18)

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Sadly, Sky is right about what Adventism has been teaching since 1888. Because of those such as A. T Jones, Waggoner and group, Adventist took a swing from the words of Jesus as the true gospel, to the words of Paul, being a gospel that was complely foreign to the disciples of Jesus.

Therefore, Jesus has given warnings to those who call themselves Adventist as found in Rev. 2 and 3 to get back to what they FIRST learned and did. But only those who have an ear to hear will probably understand this.

[cheddar]

Sadly, some people are so in love with their good works and the ten commandments that they think Jesus actually supports their deluded beliefs. When Jesus performed his many miracles did he ask for faith or law keeping? I think it was faith.

The great thing about Jones and Waggoner is that they knew the difference between the old and the new covenants. You clearly do not. The old covenant was a failure and was replaced by the new. There's only one commandment now and it's called agape. If you work really, really hard you might figure it out - after Jesus humbles your pride in the dust.

[LifeHiscost]

If you work really, really hard you might figure it out - after Jesus humbles your pride in the dust.

Praise the Lord He does not have so hard an attitude toward those who err as to allow another's opinion to determine their salvation.

"“This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the Lord:I will put my laws in their hearts,and I will write them on their minds.”"

Hebrews 10:16 NLT

"You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews."John 4:22 NKJV

"But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."Romans 2:20 NASB

God blesses!

[John317]

Sadly, some people are so in love with their good works and the ten commandments that they think Jesus actually supports their deluded beliefs. When Jesus performed his many miracles did he ask for faith or law keeping? I think it was faith.

The great thing about Jones and Waggoner is that they knew the difference between the old and the new covenants. You clearly do not. The old covenant was a failure and was replaced by the new. There's only one commandment now and it's called agape. If you work really, really hard you might figure it out - after Jesus humbles your pride in the dust.

Actually, my friend, skyblue knows the covenants well.

There's no need to put people down here in order to have a dialogue. Please play nice. We are all friends. :-)

It really isn't true that there's only one commandment now and that we can dismiss the Ten Commandments. Paul acknowledged that He was not without God's law but was under the law toward Christ. 1 Cor. 9: 21. In other words, He recognized that He had an obligation to God to keep His law in accordance to the teachings of Christ during His earthly ministry.

Agape doesn't take the place the Ten Commandments. Rather, Agape becomes the basis and the motive for the keeping of the commandments of God. Agape, then, expands and deepens our appreciation of God's laws. So, if we really have Agape, we will obey God's laws. For instance, I won't think it's OK to steal or lie as long as I have "love." If my love is genuine, I won't steal or lie, etc, and if I truly love God, I will gladly keep my worship only for Him.

[cheddar]

I was speaking to Rich not Sky.

True, the law of God is never done away with but to say that we need to keep the ten commandments is an old covenant belief.

The law of God has one purpose and that's to show us what sin is and that's it. Once the law reveals sin in our lives we go to Jesus not back to the law.

Agape is the foundation of the whole law. God's agape love is not something that we 'do' or 'keep' like the commandments. Agape is what God gives to us that chages our life and motivations - it's something that God 'does'.

Ellen White said the same thing - preaching the law till we were as dry as the hills of Gildoa. I don't have the exact quote handy.

[Dr. Rich]

I was speaking to Rich not Sky.

True, the law of God is never done away with but to say that we need to keep the ten commandments is an old covenant belief.

The law of God has one purpose and that's to show us what sin is and that's it. Once the law reveals sin in our lives we go to Jesus not back to the law.

Agape is the foundation of the whole law. God's agape love is not something that we 'do' or 'keep' like the commandments. Agape is what God gives to us that chages our life and motivations - it's something that God 'does'.

Ellen White said the same thing - preaching the law till we were as dry as the hills of Gildoa. I don't have the exact quote handy.

Your comment/reply was listed as replying to Sky. However, to clear things up, John317 did fine except for the fact that it was Luke who wrote that words that Jesus was supposed to have said which is in question. Luke, as was Paul, was not a follower of Jesus so what Luke said was hearsay at best. Again, as MM said, it would be nice for someone to present evidence ONLY from the words of Jesus given to us by the eyewitnesses to prove that this would be true. Without that, it is only by faith that one can believe that one is saved by grace because of being righteous by faith.

We would not be having this thread but for the confusion caused by the writings of people who never knew Jesus during His ministry.

[John317]

True, the law of God is never done away with but to say that we need to keep the ten commandments is an old covenant belief.

Which one of the Ten Commandments do you believe we don't need to keep?

Aren't there several purpose of the Law? It points out sin and helps us to realize our need of Christ. So it is like a mirror that tells us we are dirty and need cleasning. This is James' meaning in James 1: 23-25.

The law of God also shows us what we should do in order to please God and fulfill His will. The Bible teaches that God's will is His law.

The Ten Commandments are a part of both the Old and the New Covenants. The difference is that in the Old Covenant, they were written on stone and put inside the ark of the testimony. They were exterior to the people, and a list of do's and don'ts that people felt compelled to obey. The people promised to obey them.

On the other hand, under the New Covenant, God promises to write the Ten Commandment law on the people's hearts.

You can see that in both cases, the Ten Commandment law is central, yet the people approach them in two very different ways.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, not bad. But IF there is a judgment (and there is), just what is IT that one will be judged by? What standard does one measure up to?

Here is the thing: It is all about the covenant--right? Old or New, which is it? Didn't Jesus say that He did not come here to change the covenant and that it would not be changed until heaven and earth go kaput? Forget about what all other humans' words, because the words of Jesus trump everything else. Well, the earth is still here and so is sin. That could only mean that the OLD Covenant is still here the same way it was in the OT. And since when did Jesus ever say that the Grace of God will save anyone without them first obeying Him? If you don't obey then you don't show your love for God so there is NO grace for you! Simple as that my friends!

[John317]

I like your question here, but I'm going to have to answer it after I get some shut-eye. Been up all night and now it is time to hit the hay. Be back in a few hours. :-)

[skyblue888]

I was speaking to Rich not Sky.

True, the law of God is never done away with but to say that we need to keep the ten commandments is an old covenant belief.

The law of God has one purpose and that's to show us what sin is and that's it. Once the law reveals sin in our lives we go to Jesus not back to the law.

Agape is the foundation of the whole law. God's agape love is not something that we 'do' or 'keep' like the commandments. Agape is what God gives to us that chages our life and motivations - it's something that God 'does'.

Ellen White said the same thing - preaching the law till we were as dry as the hills of Gildoa. I don't have the exact quote handy.

Here is the quote:

"Oh, be so full of the message that it is like fire shut up in your bones, that you cannot hold your peace. It is true that men will say, 'You are too excited; you are making too much of this matter, and you do not think enough of the law; now, you are to think more of the law; don't be all the time reaching for this righteousness of Christ, but build up the law.' Let the law take care of itself. We have been at work on the law until we get as dry as the hills of Gilboa, witout dew or rain. Let us trust in the merits of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. May God help us that our eyes may be anointed with eyesalve that we may see." E.G. White, 1888 Materials, Vol.2, p.557.

She did not teach that the moral law of ten commandments was done away with but that as we look to Jesus and trust in His merits for our acceptance with God, the law is taken care of. Why? Because then we receive the righteousness of Christ which is made manifest, not in desobedience to the law, but in obedience to it.

In Testimonies to Ministers she said that the 1888 message "invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." p.92. On the same page, she says that "many had lost sight of Jesus and that their eyes needed to be directed to Jesus, to his divine Person, to His merits, and to His changeless love for the human family."

She spoke of "the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into the life. Clothed with His righteousness and not your own righteousness you will not depend upon what you can do or what you will do," for "Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." F.W.65,66;27.

It is made manifest in obedience, "the obedience of faith." Rom.16:26.

So she made her position very clear, did she not?

sky

[cheddar]

EJ Waggoner taught that the ten commandments were done away with as a means of attaining to or acquiring righteousness. The same thing that Paul taught in the New testament.

Does this mean that the ten commandments are done away with completely - NO.

If we read in Rev. 11 the temple is opened we are given a glimpse of the ark of the covenant containing the Law of God.

The Law is the foundation of God's government throughout eternity and is the standard of righteousness by which we will be judged at the very end, but it's only the standard not the righteousness of Christ.

In OT times God gave animal sacrifice and circumcision as signs of faith. These signs later became perverted and were seen as works that needed to be done in order to be saved.

In our day the 7th day Sabbath has been given to us as a sign of Righteousness by faith, but just like in the days of old the sign has been perverted into a work that must be done in order to be saved, similar to the other commandments.

The 7th day Sabbath is a day for resting in the perfect and completed work of Jesus Christ which we had no part in but receive by faith. EJ waggoner brought out the spiritual nature of the Sabbath better than anyone.

[Dr. Rich]

Cheddar, now you might understand why the warning Jesus gave in the messages to the KOH in the last days (Rev. 2.3) say to remember what was first learned and go back to that.

[LifeHiscost]

We would not be having this thread but for the confusion caused by the writings of people who never knew Jesus during His ministry.

That if true, when taken at face value would stop Christianity in its' tracks and make Jesus out to be nothing more than a blowhard and trickster whose influence would have died when the last man who knew Jesus personally and in the flesh, died.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."Matthew 24:14 NKJV

A witness is a person who has had a first hand experience to that of which they witness about.

"...to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."Colossians 1:27 NASB

God blesses!

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

We would not be having this thread but for the confusion caused by the writings of people who never knew Jesus during His ministry.

That if true, when taken at face value would stop Christianity in its' tracks and make Jesus out to be nothing more than a blowhard and trickster whose influence would have died when the last man who knew Jesus personally and in the flesh, died.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."Matthew 24:14 NKJV

A witness is a person who has had a first hand experience to that of which they witness about.

"...to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."Colossians 1:27 NASB

God blesses!

What you and many others don't understand is what Jesus ONLY told his disciples in John 14:26. Jesus told THEM that the Holy Spirit would cause them to remember everthing Jesus said.

In John 17:17-20 You can read the prayer that Jesus prayed to His Father. You see that Jesus prayed for those of "US" who have read the words of the disciples and obey them. [Words edited by the Moderator].

You gave what Jesus said and found in Matthew about the Gospel that Jesus gave, the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. This same gospel is to be given to the whole world, [words edited by the moderator].

What I am telling people is to read the words of Jesus (not my words) in order to be blessed by God and be the ones that Jesus prayed for. If you find something wrong with this, then I find that very sad!

[Twilight II]

Sky started a good discussion here.

Shame it has been hijacked with another:

"Paul is from the devil" arguments...

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

We would not be having this thread but for the confusion caused by the writings of people who never knew Jesus during His ministry.

That if true, when taken at face value would stop Christianity in its' tracks and make Jesus out to be nothing more than a blowhard and trickster whose influence would have died when the last man who knew Jesus personally and in the flesh, died.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."Matthew 24:14 NKJV

A witness is a person who has had a first hand experience to that of which they witness about.

"...to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."Colossians 1:27 NASB

God blesses!

Was it the purpose of Jesus coming to the earth to establish a religion called Christianity? Not according to Jesus. His purpose was to testify to the truth. John 18:37.

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you.   (26) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. John 14:25-26.

How does one testify to something? By words.

How does a person who heard those words remember them? By writing them down.

Is it possible to remember words that you have never heard? Certainly not.

[Words edited by moderator.]

It is therefore the written testimony of the eyewitness disciples that we can trust to be accurate and authentic with regard to the truth about what Jesus said and did.

[Words edited by moderator.]

Jesus also said it would be the Holy Spirit that would bring to the remembrance of the disciples of Jesus everything that He said to them while He was with them.

[Dr. Rich]

Sky started a good discussion here.

Shame it has been hijacked with another:

"Paul is from the devil" arguments...

Is that all you have to say about the matter? Isn't it a shame people complain without PROVING THEIR POINT! This is serio us stuff Twilight even if you don't really care enough show show those of us where and how we are wrong by using the words of Jesus. Sure I know it makes you feel uncomfortable to hear things that don't agree with your belief you have established only by faith. It did the same to me the first time I was forced to look at it. Why don't you do your own research on this first?

Have you read the commandments lately? Try Ex. 20 and you will find that God is not the same god as what Paul preached about. God said He will show His LOVE only to those who show their love to Him which He also said was keeping the Commandments. If you do this, then the grace of God may save you if you first repent and practice the truth.

[Twilight II]

Dr Rich and MM.

You have taken some texts from the bible, filtered them by a criteria that God never gave you and then loudly pronounce your "truth" at every opportunity.

I and many others on here have told you repeatedly that they are not interested in this ideology you keep expressing.

But in every thread, you try to insert the same thought...

It gets tiresome very quick.