Dr. Rich Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Twilite, problem is, the Words of Jesus will NEVER go away, so get used to them. His words are the true gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. If you don't feel comfortable the the KOH, then it's totally your choice. John wrote the words "Grace" in Rev. 1:4 and the last verse in Revelation. What he meant in both times he wrote this is what true grace is. In between these two times, you will not find the words grace, but you will find the words "deeds" and "works". You will also see that only those who keep the ten commandments and hold fast to the teachings and words (testimony) of Jesus Christ who are living in the last generation, will be the ones who are truely born into the family of God. Quote
skyblue888 Posted June 24, 2011 Author Posted June 24, 2011 EJ Waggoner taught that the ten commandments were done away with as a means of attaining to or acquiring righteousness. The same thing that Paul taught in the New testament. Cheddar from post #455535 _____________ When Paul in Gal.3:21 says that the law cannot impart life or righteousness he is speaking of the "letter of the law" for the law engraved on stones is lifeless. It is as cold as the stones it is engraved upon. That same law written with ink in the Bible is as dry as the hills of Gilboa. "The letter kills." 2 Cor.3:5-7. It is a ministry of condemnation and death. It convinces the law breaker of sin and of his need of a Saviour. Then as the convicted sinner comes to God trusting wholly in the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifice for his acceptance with God, he receives pardon and now the ten commandments are promises to him being the voice of God speaking to his soul in promise. Jesus said that the words that he SPEAKS to us are Spirit and they are Life. (John 6:63) The law from His mouth imparts power, it begets life, even the very life of God, and the life of God imparts righteousness for righteousness is right doing. For them these passages of Scriptures are fulfilled: "All the words of My mouth are with righteousness." Prov.8:8. "All Your commandments (proceeding out of His mouth) are righteousness." Ps.119:172. "I will never forget Your commandments for by them You have given me life." Ps.119:93,50. "The law of Your mouth is more precious to me than thousands of shekels of silver and gold." Psa.119:72. "Receive, I pray thee, the law from His mouth." Job 22:22 (king James). For from His mouth it is the word of His grace. It imparts power, it begets a new life in Christ Jesus and the life thus imparted is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Matt.4:4. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Musicman1228 Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Dr Rich and MM. You have taken some texts from the bible, filtered them by a criteria that God never gave you and then loudly pronounce your "truth" at every opportunity. I and many others on here have told you repeatedly that they are not interested in this ideology you keep expressing. But in every thread, you try to insert the same thought... It gets tiresome very quick. The truth is tough, isn't it. The ONLY filter that Dr. Rich and I use is the words of Jesus Christ as He gave them to His eyewitness disciples. I know how upsetting this is for you, so you must somehow make us the bad guys because you can't do that to Jesus. I don't care in the least whether you are interested in 'my ideology', because it is not my 'ideology', because I am simply restating what Jesus says. I am not writing on this forum for your benefit, as you have already made your decision as to whom you will serve in the end. I am writing for those who are honest seekers of truth, those who have not yet set their hearts in stone so that they can no longer learn anything. Your attitude and demeanor suggest that you are leodicean, because you already know it all and have need of nothing else. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 I am writing for those who are honest seekers of truth I would suggest you will find more satisfaction by looking for those who are dishonest in heart as they are the ones Jesus came to save. "For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.”"Luke 19:10 NLT God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Musicman1228 Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 I am writing for those who are honest seekers of truth I would suggest you will find more satisfaction by looking for those who are dishonest in heart as they are the ones Jesus came to save. "For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.”"Luke 19:10 NLT God blesses! Just because you are 'lost' does not necessarily mean you are not honest. Honesty means that you look at things the way they are, not the way you wish them to be. Too many Christians believe that they know the truth, when in fact they are simply believing a lie AS IF it were the truth. That is because they have faith that that what they believe is true. To a person of faith the facts don't matter. Someone that is dishonest is not going to search for truth, they are not interested in truth they are only interested in what they believe to be true. Jesus did not come to save people who are willing to be fooled by lies. No one that believes a lie will be saved into the Kingdom of God. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 What you wrote what Jesus said in Matt. 4:4 is not correct as you will not find the word "Grace" there at all. However, the jest of all of this is that the words of Jesus is what is really important. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted June 24, 2011 Moderators Posted June 24, 2011 John317, not bad. But IF there is a judgment (and there is), just what is IT that one will be judged by? What standard does one measure up to? The standard in the Judgment is the Ten Commandments. Ecc. 12: 13, 14; James 2: 8-12; Matt. 5: 19-20; 19: 17; 1 Cor. 7: 19; 9: 21; 1 John 3: 4; Rev. ll: 18, 19. God's standard, His law, requires perfect obedience. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 24, 2011 Moderators Posted June 24, 2011 What words is Matt. 4: 4 referring to? Is it referring only to the words spoken and recorded by Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew and John? Who spoke the words that Jesus in quoting in Matt. 4: 4? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Never mind John317 as I see that Sky was not quoting anyone about Matt.4:4. I just didn't want others to get the idea that Jesus said the word "grace" in this verse. This verse is what Jesus said to Satan about the 'living water and bread of life' being the words of God. Since Jesus came to testify to the truth and gave us the words from His Father, then the words of Jesus are truely the real truth and no other words from anyone else can equil or trump them. Quote
skyblue888 Posted June 25, 2011 Author Posted June 25, 2011 Rich, speaking of Christ John says, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." John 1:1. Then verse 14 says, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth." Jesus Christ is the Word full of grace and truth. The Words that proceed out of the mouth of Christ are full of grace and truth, which means that they are Spirit and they are Life. (John 6:63) At Sinai the law was first spoken. That law was the voice of God in Christ from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise. That voice was full of grace and truth, Spirit and Life, full of power and majesty.(Psalm 29:3,4) But at Sinai, the people were afraid of the voice and they asked that Moses speak to them instead. (Ex.20:19) Shortly after the law was engraved on stones and later written with ink. Here we have two covenants. The letter and the Spirit. The letter kills (2 Cor.3:6,7) but the voice of God is Spirit and Life. It is the ministration of the Spirit. (2 Cor.3:8,9) "The Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Rom.8:10) At Sinai, the Voice of God in Christ would have imparted the life of Christ if the people's ear had been opened. "Inlcine your year... hear and your soul shall live." Isa.55:3. Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God and the life of God in the soul is man's only hope. The Voice of God in Christ is full of His own life and therefore full of power and majesty. (Psalm 29:3,4) So the Voice of God is the ministration of the Spirit, the ministration of life, the ministration of righteousness whereas the law engraved on stones or merely written with ink is a ministration of condemnation and death and yet it is a glorious ministry because it shows us our need of a Saviour. It is our school master. But the spoken law is the Voice of God from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise. Those who rest in the merits of Christ for their salvation, and received that law from God's mouth, that law then becomes the law of liberty. It becomes the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus which makes them free from the law of sin and death (Rom.8:2) which is in our members. (Rom.7:23) The spoken law is the law of liberty because it imparts the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, freedom from sin. (2 Cor.3:17) So the law spoken from Sinai is still speaking to us. It is the Voice of God speaking to us as we rest in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. "The Lord has opened my ears." Psa. 40:6; Isa.50:4,5. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
LifeHiscost Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Someone that is dishonest is not going to search for truth, they are not interested in truth they are only interested in what they believe to be true. Jesus did not come to save people who are willing to be fooled by lies. No one that believes a lie will be saved into the Kingdom of God. That is one way of absolving ourselves of any responsibility to seek and save that which is lost. I guess we can add to that the very Word of God to bolster our effort to escape any responsibility for the lost, as well as disassociating ourselves from the body of Christ. "“ Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD...." Isaiah 1:17 NKJV Not sure how that answers to this Word from Jesus. "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!"Matthew 10:8 NLT God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Dr. Rich Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Sky, I get your point, but then how come you need anyone else's words to find truth other than the words of Jesus? What is IT that was wrong with the words of Jesus to make you and anyone else want to believe the words of someone else and then follow those words? BTW, did you look up what the word "Grace" meant in Strongs in the verses you gave? Quote
Musicman1228 Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 Someone that is dishonest is not going to search for truth, they are not interested in truth they are only interested in what they believe to be true. Jesus did not come to save people who are willing to be fooled by lies. No one that believes a lie will be saved into the Kingdom of God. That is one way of absolving ourselves of any responsibility to seek and save that which is lost. I guess we can add to that the very Word of God to bolster our effort to escape any responsibility for the lost, as well as disassociating ourselves from the body of Christ. "“ Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD...." Isaiah 1:17 NKJV Not sure how that answers to this Word from Jesus. "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!"Matthew 10:8 NLT God blesses! There will be many that are lost that believe that they have been able to 'reason' with God and 'prove' that there was no need for them to keep the Commandments of God or hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ. They think that 'reasoning' means being able to negotiate with God over what is truth and what isn't. These people will be sorely surprised when they come to understand that what 'reason' means to them in not reasoning to God. The 'reason' in this verse indicates that God will explain clearly what His requirements are for salvation, and His people will do them. It does not mean that His people have a say in what those requirements either are or are not. Remember, there will be many people who will say to the Lord when He comes, "Look, God, we healed the sick, and cast out demons. We cured those with leprosy, and raised the dead. Why are you casting us into outer darkness?" To which Jesus will answer, "I never knew you." How is it that He never knew them? Because they never bothered to know the truth. The believed what they wanted to believe about Him. They believed lies about Him as if they were the truth. That is why even those that did all those good and wonderful things will be lost. Quote
skyblue888 Posted June 27, 2011 Author Posted June 27, 2011 Rich, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is exceedingly abundant with faith and love. It is the Holy Spirit. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Dr. Rich Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 Rich, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is exceedingly abundant with faith and love. It is the Holy Spirit. sky And what if it is not the Holy Spirit, then what? How can you know for sure if it was the Holy Spirit? Didn't Joseph Smith say the same thing? Quote
skyblue888 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 If the grace of God is not the Holy Spirit, then what is it? Speaking of the wise virgins of the parable of the ten virgins, we read, "The latter class had received the grace of God, the regenerating, enlightening power of the Holy Spirit, which renders His word a lamp to the feet and a light to the path." The Great Controversy, p.394. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Musicman1228 Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Grace as used in John 1:14 and other places in the gospels - 5485 charis khar'-ece from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act. When Jesus spoke he spoke with 'graciousness'. This is specifically NOT indicating that this 'grace' gives us salvation as a free gift. I wish all of us here on the forum would speak in 'graciousness' as did Jesus Christ. Our discussions would be a lot more respectful. Quote
skyblue888 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 None can speak with "graciousness" unless they are graced with the Holy Spirit. Jesus was full of grace and truth because He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. So may we. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 And then in a later post you quote John 1:14 and as usual don't bother to look up the meaning of the Greek word that you assume means 'grace' as these others teach. The word for 'grace' in this text DOES NOT mean grace in the sense of 'salvation by grace through faith'. The word is 'charis' (Srong's 5463) which simply means graciousness, as in graciousness of manner. Although it is true that "graciousness" can mean what you say it means, it is not limited to that meaning at all. An additional meaning could also be: "indulgent or beneficent in a pleasantly condescending way, especially to inferiors." Random House 2011. Also, "merciful or compassionate: our gracious king." Random House 2011. These meanings fit better into the Biblical context of John 1:14. Why? Because God (Jesus Christ) was indeed "indulgent, beneficent, and condescending to us (inferiors)! Jesus Christ as the Word was also merciful and compassionate toward us! So indeed John 1:14 does mean the same as the "Grace" given to us in the Plan of Salvation! This Grace is a "free gift" it is not earned in any way shape or form. This is Biblical! Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 None can speak with "graciousness" unless they are graced with the Holy Spirit. Jesus was full of grace and truth because He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. So may we. sky WHAT? Ahhhh, now I see the probem. Clearly, you don't think that Satan can deceive anyone by being nice. Well then, let me be the first to tell you what you wrote is nothing but El Toro Poo Poo! Here is why: Jesus was full of TRUTH and Testified to that Truth! He was gracious enough to come down to this earth as a human to show the world that the ten commandments are EASY to keep and that ALL who want to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven must also do the same thing after repenting and practicing the truth that Jesus testifed about. After all, Michael was totally righteous as the Angel of the Lord (Ex. 3), but because He said He would pay the penalty for Satan, then that is what He did, but only after finishing His mission to this world. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Miz3, ya, the grace was when Michael came as Jesus to testify to the truth so that those who HEAR and keep the words of Jesus can overcome sin and become sanctified. Yes, what Jesus did was a free gift to this world, but to accept that gift one must beieve in what Jesus testified and keep the commandments and hold fast to that same testimony. Rev. 12:17 Quote
miz3 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 True, the law of God is never done away with but to say that we need to keep the ten commandments is an old covenant belief. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-20. 1. These are clearly the Words of Jesus Christ. 2. Jesus clearly states that the Law is not abolished. 3. Jesus clearly states that he Law will last forever! 4. Verse 19 are Jesus Christ's Words and He says that anyone who breaks even the smallest of the Law will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven! 5. Jesus further states that those who practice the Law and teach others to do so will be "called great in the kingdom of heaven". Cheddar I believe you are wrong when you state that the Law is an Old Covenant idea and that the Law has been replaced by "agape"! The Word of God says you are wrong! Quote
cheddar Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: chedder True, the law of God is never done away with but to say that we need to keep the ten commandments is an old covenant belief. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-20. 1. These are clearly the Words of Jesus Christ. 2. Jesus clearly states that the Law is not abolished. 3. Jesus clearly states that he Law will last forever! 4. Verse 19 are Jesus Christ's Words and He says that anyone who breaks even the smallest of the Law will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven! 5. Jesus further states that those who practice the Law and teach others to do so will be "called great in the kingdom of heaven". Cheddar I believe you are wrong when you state that the Law is an Old Covenant idea and that the Law has been replaced by "agape"! The Word of God says you are wrong! I think you're wrong and you have the same righteousness that the scribes and pharisees had. - a righteousness built around law keeping which makes the doer a legalist - In case you missed it , a new covenant commandment keeper is someone who believes not a pharisee who trusts in his good works and self-righteousness. Quote
miz3 Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Cheddar, Are you saying that Jesus Christ was wrong to say this? Are you saying that Jesus Christ was a legalist? I also did not say that I trusted in my good works. You are putting words into my mouth that I never said nor did such thoughts even enter my mind. Quote
cheddar Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Who are you - Dr Rich's clone! How many times did Jesus speak of faith and believing the gospel to keeping the law? What was the ratio 50 to 1 in favor of faith. I focus on the 50 times he talked about faith and you focus on the one time he spoke of law keeping. I don't blame you or Dr Rich for these beliefs - I blame the person who is truly at fault and that would be Ellen White. Ellen White pushed a commandment keeping gospel for so long that it's impossible for Adventists to see anything else. It's funny, Ellen White endorsed what Jones and Waggoner were saying but I don't remember them ever endorsing her version of the gospel. Quote
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