Moderators John317 Posted July 2, 2011 Moderators Posted July 2, 2011 There will be many that are lost that believe that they have been able to 'reason' with God and 'prove' that there was no need for them to keep the Commandments of God or hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ. They think that 'reasoning' means being able to negotiate with God over what is truth and what isn't. These people will be sorely surprised when they come to understand that what 'reason' means to them in not reasoning to God. The 'reason' in this verse indicates that God will explain clearly what His requirements are for salvation, and His people will do them. It does not mean that His people have a say in what those requirements either are or are not. Remember, there will be many people who will say to the Lord when He comes, "Look, God, we healed the sick, and cast out demons. We cured those with leprosy, and raised the dead. Why are you casting us into outer darkness?" To which Jesus will answer, "I never knew you." How is it that He never knew them? Because they never bothered to know the truth. The believed what they wanted to believe about Him. They believed lies about Him as if they were the truth. That is why even those that did all those good and wonderful things will be lost. We're in agreement on this post, MM. Of course if we were to take the conversation further, we would find that we have some disagreements over salvation, but up to this point, we are in agreement. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Who are you - Dr Rich's clone! How many times did Jesus speak of faith and believing the gospel to keeping the law? What was the ratio 50 to 1 in favor of faith. I focus on the 50 times he talked about faith and you focus on the one time he spoke of law keeping. I don't blame you or Dr Rich for these beliefs - I blame the person who is truly at fault and that would be Ellen White. Ellen White pushed a commandment keeping gospel for so long that it's impossible for Adventists to see anything else.It's funny, Ellen White endorsed what Jones and Waggoner were saying but I don't remember them ever endorsing her version of the gospel. Cheddar, please prove your point. I did my search and I can't find where Jesus EVER said that someone's faith would provide for their salvation--not once! What am I missing? Yes, Jesus did talk about faith, but it was not righteousness by faith. And it was not saved by grace either. So your attitude does not fit the picture here. What gospel did Jesus tell people to believe in? The ONLY gospel that I found was "The Gospel of The Kingdom" and this is NOT what Paul taught. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 2, 2011 Moderators Posted July 2, 2011 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."Matthew 5:17-20. 1. These are clearly the Words of Jesus Christ. 2. Jesus clearly states that the Law is not abolished. 3. Jesus clearly states that he Law will last forever! 4. Verse 19 are Jesus Christ's Words and He says that anyone who breaks even the smallest of the Law will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven! 5. Jesus further states that those who practice the Law and teach others to do so will be "called great in the kingdom of heaven". Cheddar I believe you are wrong when you state that the Law is an Old Covenant idea and that the Law has been replaced by "agape"! The Word of God says you are wrong! True. I agree. Love does not replace the law. Agape/love is the true expression and ground of the law. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Who are you - Dr Rich's clone! How many times did Jesus speak of faith and believing the gospel to keeping the law? What was the ratio 50 to 1 in favor of faith. I focus on the 50 times he talked about faith and you focus on the one time he spoke of law keeping. I don't blame you or Dr Rich for these beliefs - I blame the person who is truly at fault and that would be Ellen White. 1. Dr. Rich would be flabbergasted at your assertion we are clones. You obviously are not very up to date concerning my posts on this website. If you were you would not say such a thing. 2. So you have actually made a statistical count of the ratio of references of "Faith" versus the references of "Law"? What was the actual raw count data that you came up with? Could you please share this with all of us. 3. It is obvious you know extremely little about me yet you JUDGE ME as being a "legalist"! Do you do this to everyone. 4. It is also obvious that you have no Biblical answer to the Matthew text I posted. All you can do is rant and rave and cast hate toward me! 5. You then blame Ellen White for my beliefs and those of Dr. Rich. This also demonstrates an extreme lack of knowledge on your part concerning us both. Dr. Rich for your information does NOT hold at all to the Writings of Ellen White. As for me, I believe some of her writings are indeed "inspired" and that she did many God sent tasks to the SDA Church. I also believe that the bulk of Ellen Writings are an expression of her own opinions concerning Biblical issues as well as historical issues. She believed them to be correct but they were non the less her human opinion. So you see on that alone Dr. Rich and I do not agree. It also demonstrates your great and deep ignorance concerning this discussion. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Hold on there miz3, I don't think you fully understand my understanding on EGW. I do NOT use her writings to estabish my foundational belief on how salvation works. However, it is clear to me that EGW was inspired by someone highter than she was and many of the things that she said were downright the truth! Same goes for Paul! It is MY OWN opinion that these truths are what attract people to say that everything she said was inspired, but that simply is not the truth as I think you also agreed with. I, unlike many here, have actually read and studied most, if not all, of her writings and find many mistakes she claimed came from 'above'. (I think you know what I mean.) I was SO MUCH a EGW devotee that if you look at the huge picture painted on the wall of the GC about the vision of those going to heaven on a path, ME and my wife's picture is right there! And no, we are not the ones who are falling off of that path. btw, this was the 'closed door vision' that ALL know was not correct. That in itself is interesting. I also believe that Satan knows more than you and I do or any human now alive, about true salvation and end time events and he has used his knowledge to tweak it ever so little so that those who read writings like both Paul and EGW will become confused. Some day shortly we will all will find out! Quote
miz3 Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 By the way cheddar: A simple word find in the NIV 1984 with the words: faith and law it reveals the following: Quote: Law is cited 114 times in the Gospels. Faith is cited 49 times in the Gospels. That hardly meets you 50 to one ratio you projected. Quote: It is actually 2.33 to one in favor of Law. Sorry cheddar! Quote: If we use the 1611 King James Version and do the same search: Law is cited 62 times in the Gospels. Faith is cited 41 times in the Gospels. Again this hardly meets you 50 to one ratio you projected. It is actually 1.5 to one in favor of the Law Sorry again cheddar! Quote
miz3 Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Dr. Rich, I stand corrected on your views of Ellen White. Thank you for the clarification. I do wish to be accurate. I apologize for getting it wrong! Quote
cheddar Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 By the way cheddar: A simple word find in the NIV 1984 with the words: faith and law it reveals the following: Quote: Law is cited 114 times in the Gospels. Faith is cited 49 times in the Gospels. That hardly meets you 50 to one ratio you projected. Quote: It is actually 2.33 to one in favor of Law. Sorry cheddar! Quote: If we use the 1611 King James Version and do the same search: Law is cited 62 times in the Gospels. Faith is cited 41 times in the Gospels. Again this hardly meets you 50 to one ratio you projected. It is actually 1.5 to one in favor of the Law Sorry again cheddar! So I guess if we go by what Miz3 says – Jesus never talked about faith and always taught that we need to keep the law – Wrong! Also, your search isn’t accurate because I was speaking about the times Jesus spoke of faith and the law, not the whole New testament. – Wrong #2 Your words have no weight with me because you reject the sanctuary doctrine which is clearly biblical! Your stubborn opinion is the only thing that matters to you. The Bible says you are Wrong #3 You're just some guy who knows the Bible – A real Christian is someone who knows the words and more importantly Believes what they say! Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 No one will keep reading your words Sonny if you keep acting like this. What I mean, you write something that is ONLY your opinion without any proof to back it up. Please treat others in a fair manner and you too will be treated in the same manner as 'do unto others....." Why, Miz3 has been very nice to you and has used verses to support her undrstanding. None of us here have all of the truth, so it would do all of us good to be able to support our understanding. I did even though many shrug it off. Quote
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