ClubV12 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 The more I read Ellen White the more I'm convinced her writings are not to be taken as "personal opinion". While reading (again) Acts of the Apostles I was really struck with she had to say about Paul's inspired writing. "Paul was an inspired apostle. The truths he taught to others he had received "by revelation;" yet the Lord did not directly reveal to him at all times just the condition of His people. In this instance those who were interested in the prosperity of the church at Corinth, and who had seen evils creeping in, had presented the matter before the apostle, and from divine revelations which he had formerly received he was prepared to judge of the character of these developments. Notwithstanding the fact that the Lord did not give him a new revelation for that special time, those who were really seeking for light accepted his message as expressing the mind of Christ. The Lord had shown him the difficulties and dangers which would arise in the churches, and, as these evils developed, the apostle recognized their significance. He had been set for the defense of the church. He was to watch for souls as one who must render account to God, and was it not consistent and right for him to take notice of the reports concerning the anarchy and divisions among them? Most assuredly; and the reproof he sent them was as certainly written under the inspiration of the Spirit of God as were any of his other epistles. {AA 302.3}" I recall elsewhere in EGW writings where she talks about recieving divine information (dreams, visions) and she does not know the meaning. Then when a future situation unfolds the knowledge is brought back to her forcefully and clearly and she understands the situation. She then writes, using her own words, to convey the Lords message for that situation. This is where I think folks assume she is writing out her "own opinion". Some people took the same position with Paul during his time, disregarded his counsel as opinion. One could accurately declare Pauls counsel, like Ellen Whites, was a lesser light leading to a greater light during Pauls life. As ALL inspired writings have to be compared to existing scripture. Matthew, Mark, ALL of them at that time. Ellen White in our time. I see very little difference in how inspiration worked for her as to how it worked for the biblical authors. I'm not posting this to "toot an EGW horn", I'm posting this to thank God for a clearer understanding of how inspiration works! I found it very interesting and a blessing, Praise God for that. Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 19, 2011 Administrators Posted June 19, 2011 And I believe that same Spirit of inspiration is continually at work now as it was in times past. Like a gentle rain, it falls from above. Some people pay attention and get it. Some don't. And then some put on their rain coat and put up their umbrellas so as not to get wet. But it is the water of life and those who search for it will find it is all around them and in them. Some get it from others. Some give it to others. Some find it working together with others. We all have this gift... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
miz3 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Ellen White states that Paul was "inspired". Was Ellen White right? or Was Ellen White wrong? Which is it, Dr. Rich? Quote
ClubV12 Posted June 19, 2011 Author Posted June 19, 2011 I see a lot of parallels between Paul and Ellen White. Paul was there to help establish and build up the early church at a time when people were leaving the synagouges and establing a new order of things. The Lord sent Ellen White to do a similiar work. Re-establishing a different and new order of things. A new church coming out from the established church organization. While the debate rages on about the current established order of things, the SDA church, the GC, etc. I don't see anything conclusive that this "new church", the Seventh-day Adventist church structure, will be replaced by a new group. Or a new prophet anywhere near equal the magnitude of Ellen White. What happend in the early AD period, following Christs death was profound. As it was in 1844 at the end of the 2,300 year prophecy. A unique moment in time, a time of great and profound change. I don't think we will see another "movement" of this importance again. It will be more subtle, more difficult to perceieve as it creeps up on us. By the time the final events take place (like a National Sunday law) it will be to late for most of those within the remnant church to do anything about it. Their decision will have already been made. At that time, perhaps like the stoning of Stephen, the message will largely go to the "gentiles". Quote
Dr. Rich Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Ellen White states that Paul was "inspired". Was Ellen White right? or Was Ellen White wrong? Which is it, Dr. Rich? Who really cares? Why trust or follow after the words of EGW? What more can you learn from her words or Paul's words that are more important than the words of Jesus Christ given to us by eyewitnesses? Jesus prayed to His Father to bless those who read those words and understand them and become followers of Him. Jesus NEVER prayed to His Father for those who read the words of Paul or EGW! It's your choice. Follow after the words of Jesus or make a mistake and become deceived into believing a lie. To answer your question directly, YES, Paul was inspired! He had to be to write what He did and so did EGW. Problem is, they both were inspired by Satan because of the many lies each of them gave that do NOT agree with the words of Jesus Christ. So please tell me, how does Satan use people to 'scatter' IF not by getting them to mistakenly believe he is the Holy Spirit who is inspiring them to say and write what they do? So Miz3, you and I would have complete unity with Jesus and the Father IF only we followed the words of Jesus Christ give to us by His eyewitnesses! So tell me, who was it that did the 'scattering'? Quote
ClubV12 Posted June 19, 2011 Author Posted June 19, 2011 "The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God... It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction." (LDE 177, 178) Dr. Rich, this from the prophets inspired pen. ^ Did you give up the Testimonies before you began to doubt the pillars of the SDA faith? Did the doubt of the Holy Scriptures follow that? Is that what led to your rejection of Paul as an inspired biblical author? Are you know in open rebellion (complete rejection) of the Seventh-day Adventist church? The most important question you may want to ask yourself: Is this position incurable and will it end in destruction? Sincerely Dr. Rich, do you see a pattern here, a trend of your rejection of the prophets? Perhaps it's not to late to come home? Stop the madness Dr. Rich, come home. Quote
miz3 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Dr. Rich, So Paul and Ellen White are servants of Satan? Quote
olger Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Dr. Rich, So Paul and Ellen White are servants of Satan? Uh..that could be blasphemy! Attributing the works of the holy Spirit to the enemy doesn't get high marks in Scripture. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
ClubV12 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 "...they both were inspired by Satan." Whatever you want to call it, it's a deadly serious accusation. Dr. Rich, please, reconsider your position before it's to late, if it's not to late already. Quote
miz3 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I am only making sure that what Dr. Rich said was indeed what he wanted to says. I agree that is a pretty heavy charge! Quote
Musicman1228 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Please read the following text carefully: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Paul. Rev. 12:17. No, that can't be right. Let me try again: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimonies of Ellen White. Rev. 12:17. This is what most Adventists believe to be true. It is what YOU believe to be true, but it is a lie. Here is the TRUTH: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:17. So Dr. Rich is right and those who believe that Paul and EGW are inspired by the true Holy Spirit are wrong. Sadly, they will not admit to this because it would destroy everything that they live for. Some things either will not or cannot change. Quote
ClubV12 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 Whoa, now were getting to the core of the matter! It's refreshing to see where people stand on these important issues. Thanks for clearing up your position Musicman, utterly opposed to the Lords messenger. I would that thou were cold or hot. There are many who have not yet taken a firm position, we must wait, in due time, they will. Quote
miz3 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:17. You are correct that SDA apply this to Ellen White. This text does not apply to any specific prophet. This text does not apply to Ellen White only. Most SDA believe that this text applies only to Ellen White. However, some recent clever SDA have tried to make Ellen White part of a group of prophets that fit this description. Yet historically SDA have applied this to ONLY Ellen White. The Truth is: This text applies only to those humans who actually "hold to the testimony of Jesus". Whether they are prophets or not prophets. The "testimony of Jesus" is the Gospel! Only those who are in complete sync with the Gospel are holding to the "testimony of Jesus"! The question then is, does Paul hold to the "testimony of Jesus"? Does Ellen White hold to the "testimony of Jesus"? Does ???????? hold to the "testimony of Jesus"? Quote
ClubV12 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 I've never heard anyone apply that verse solely to Ellen White. It's always used in the context of the people of God, the "church", not some, or any, specific person. Weird some would think it only applies to a prophet... Dr. Rich, there is no point in discussing doctrine with you. Your ideas are to far removed from Seventh-day Adventist fundamental beliefs to even consider it. It's not like your some new person seeking knowledge and trying to understand the gospel. You KNOW what SDA's believe, you have made a choice to reject that teaching, you've invented some new theology. There is nothing more to discuss about doctrine. Quote
miz3 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Dr. Rich, I hate to say it, but I think ClubV12 has you pegged correctly. You sound too much like pastorchick when you claim to keep all the commandments. Your claim of "Perfection" does not fit the Words of Jesus Christ. It sounds more like the "Rich Young Ruler" who went away from Christ sorrowful. Your claim to "spiritual richness" brings that incident to mind. Quote
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Dr. Rich, words almost fail me on reading your opinions of Saint Paul and his words, his works. He was on fire for The Lord, giving up first his lofty position, and finally his life for Christianity. Regretfully, I cannot and will not defend Mrs. White in any way. I have committed SDA friends and in-laws who feel the same way. Jawge A weird Baptist committed to and searching for the truth. Funny, one of my favorite TV shows, "The X Files", had the motto "The truth is out there." No one I have ever met has the whole truth. Most are not even close. Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)
miz3 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 No one I have ever met has the whole truth. Most are not even close. How are you able to make this judgment? Have you seen the whole truth? Do you know the whole truth? Just askin'. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Dr. Rich, words almost fail me on reading your opinions of Saint Paul and his words, his works. He was on fire for The Lord, giving up first his lofty position, and finally his life for Christianity. Regretfully, I cannot and will not defend Mrs. White in any way. I have committed SDA friends and in-laws who feel the same way. Jawge A weird Baptist committed to and searching for the truth. Funny, one of my favorite TV shows, "The X Files", had the motto "The truth is out there." No one I have ever met has the whole truth. Most are not even close. Jawge, could you please tell all of us when, where and how Paul died and where to find this hidden information? I have been researching this for years and it appears Paul just ceased to become known. Could be he was one of the first to be placed into the 'witness protection' group like they do with spies from the CIA. I respect your words, but it would be nice to know where you get your foundation for them. Thanks! Oh, btw, Only ONE brought the real truth about salvation from heaven to this earth and that was Jesus Christ Himself. Isn't that enough for you? Quote
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 Originally Posted By: Jawge No one I have ever met has the whole truth. Most are not even close. How are you able to make this judgment? Very easily. Have you ever encountered anyone whose every belief about anything and everything you could accept? I have not. Only such a one as this could have "the whole truth". Have you seen the whole truth? Do you know the whole truth? Just askin'. I thought I made it clear earlier that I have not encountered anyone who knows the whole truth, and certainly that all inclusive statement encompasses me. JawgeFromJawja "The Truth is out there." Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)
CoAspen Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 You sound like someone I would very much enjoy having a conversation with. Your attitude about your search for 'truth' is very refreshing. (X Files my favorite) Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 You sound like someone I would very much enjoy having a conversation with. Your attitude about your search for 'truth' is very refreshing. (X Files my favorite) You guys might start looking for the ONE person who does have ALL of the truth as found in Matthew 34:45. If you are that hungry to want the real truth, then this ONE person is the one who will be dishing it out. By the way, it is my own opinion I have found him and have been 'eating' this food for over 15 years. And no, this will not be someone who is a leader in any church or any pastor either! Why? There is only ONE leader and teacher and that Jesus Christ Himself and you can learn this truth from ONLY His words. Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Dr. Rich I believe has this one correct! Jesus Christ has and has always had the whole Truth because Jesus Christ is the Truth! Oh! by the way not everyone agrees with Jesus Christ and not everyone likes being around Jesus Christ! Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Very easily. Have you ever encountered anyone whose every belief about anything and everything you could accept? I have not. Only such a one as this could have "the whole truth". I guess then you have never met Jesus Christ! Try it, you might like it! In Jesus Christ I have indeed encountered SOMEONE whose every belief about anything and everything I can and do accept! Like I said, since you have not apparently met Jesus Christ maybe you and CoAspen ought to try it. Quote
Members phkrause Posted July 4, 2011 Members Posted July 4, 2011 I guess then you have never met Jesus Christ! Try it, you might like it! In Jesus Christ I have indeed encountered SOMEONE whose every belief about anything and everything I can and do accept! Like I said, since you have not apparently met Jesus Christ maybe you and CoAspen ought to try it. miz3 I believe that when George says he has not met anyone that knows all truth, hes not talking about Jesus Christ. I think you know that. I'd say that from the many comments I've read that George knows Jesus Christ better than most of us. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 I guess then you have never met Jesus Christ! Try it, you might like it! In Jesus Christ I have indeed encountered SOMEONE whose every belief about anything and everything I can and do accept! Like I said, since you have not apparently met Jesus Christ maybe you and CoAspen ought to try it. miz3 I believe that when George says he has not met anyone that knows all truth, hes not talking about Jesus Christ. I think you know that. I'd say that from the many comments I've read that George knows Jesus Christ better than most of us. Thank you, Pkrause! I meant no one accessible as a living, currently earthbound person. That should cover all the bases. Come to think of it, The Bible itself tells us we do not presently have "the whole Truth", saying that our present vision is distorted: 1Co 13:12 King James Version For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. God's Word Translation (GW) Now we see a blurred image in a mirror. Then we will see very clearly. Now my knowledge is incomplete. Then I will have complete knowledge as God has complete knowledge of me. Which brings up one of my favorite toys, e-Sword, a powerful freebie for Bible Study. My installed e-Sword is set up simultaneously to compare 27 translations. It can be formatted to compare many more than that. The NIV and New English translations are among the few that are available on e-Sword only by an extra fee, probably $10 each. Any public domain translation is free. One of the features of e-Sword is its lightning fast search program. The Bible of the Pilgrims, the Geneva version, is available on e-Sword. Scholars estimate that 80 % of the KJV was based on the Geneva version. Other available features of e-Sword include the Apocrypha, non-Biblical letters and writings of the early Christian fathers, Strong's Numbers in several translations,Nave's Topical Bible, several dictionaries, maps, multiple commentaries by such giants as Wesley and Matthew Henry, a word processor for copying and manipulating passages, and a prayer list. One of the good things about all this is that it is located on your own computer. No need to go on the Internet except to download the program. I don't have Pilgrim father ancestry. My ancestors were pardoned jailbirds (largely debtors' prison) who came over to Savannah with General Oglethorpe. Us older coots tend to digress. Makes for a jumbled discussion. My apologies. However, pkrause and Overaged usually stay focused. JawgeFromJawja Augusta home of the Masters, that is. I never played golf. Silly little game that the wife of my youth loves to watch. Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)
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