JawgeFromJawja Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 You sound like someone I would very much enjoy having a conversation with. Your attitude about your search for 'truth' is very refreshing. (X Files my favorite) Annette and I never had time to see X Files while "working". We discovered it on Netflix as a streaming video, so last year, we pigged out on all ninety plus episodes on our 32 inch computer monitor. It sort of fizzled towards the end, but we scored it generally as a 4 to 5 star production. Recently, we set up our TV to receive internet material, which is technically very easy. Jawge Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)
miz3 Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 miz3 I believe that when George says he has not met anyone that knows all truth, hes not talking about Jesus Christ. I think you know that. I'd say that from the many comments I've read that George knows Jesus Christ better than most of us. When Jawge made his statement he did not qualify it in that way. If he meant it that way he should have stated so! I doubt very much if you pkrause or any of us humans is qualified to determine how much someone (other human) KNOWS JESUS! Such a JUDGMENT is above your pay grade by infinity! Only God knows how much any of know Jesus Christ! Quote
Members phkrause Posted July 9, 2011 Members Posted July 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: pkrause miz3 I believe that when George says he has not met anyone that knows all truth, hes not talking about Jesus Christ. I think you know that. I'd say that from the many comments I've read that George knows Jesus Christ better than most of us. When Jawge made his statement he did not qualify it in that way. If he meant it that way he should have stated so! I doubt very much if you pkrause or any of us humans is qualified to determine how much someone (other human) KNOWS JESUS! Such a JUDGMENT is above your pay grade by infinity! Only God knows how much any of know Jesus Christ! Your still missing his point? And yes its way above my pay grade! Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Dr. Rich Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 WHAT=Come to think of it, The Bible itself tells us we do not presently have "the whole Truth", saying that our present vision is distorted: 1Co 13:12 King James Version For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Please don't place me with your "our" as Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit in order to lead us into ALL truth. No need to have on dark glasses my friend, just open your eyes and read the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses to see the whole truth and nothing but the truth! Quote
ClubV12 Posted July 10, 2011 Author Posted July 10, 2011 Thanks to the way inspiration works, we have vastly more knowledge of present truth than at any time in history. The Lord has given us detailed information into virtually all aspects of our life, and lifestyle, through His messenger for our time, Ellen White. I am SO thankful for the Testimonies in particular. I'm about half way through Volume 1 and am impressed with how balanced the information is. Like the bible, it would be very easy to take a quote/verse here or there and arrive at a wrong conclusion. Understanding the Testimonies is more than "context" and time and place. While that is important, I believe it is impossible to find the balance without the direction of the Holy Spirit. She speaks of sincere people, being very sincerely mistaken on certain points! Without the Holy Spirit, you are absolutely doomed to misunderstand the Testimonies. Quote
miz3 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Your still missing his point? Maybe I am missing the point because you never actually made a point! Second, since you agree that such judgments are "above your pay grade" are you going to retract you statement about "Jawge knowing Christ more than most other humans"? Quote
Members phkrause Posted July 10, 2011 Members Posted July 10, 2011 Maybe I am missing the point because you never actually made a point! Second, since you agree that such judgments are "above your pay grade" are you going to retract you statement about "Jawge knowing Christ more than most other humans"? He did not me. And I did not Judge so I have nothing to retract. What I did do was make an observation, based on what and how it was said toward others. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
miz3 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 What I did do was make an observation, based on what and how it was said toward others. No! you didn't just simply make an observation, you made a JUDGMENT AS TO THE SPIRITUALITY OF ONE PERSON AS OPPOSED TO ANOTHER PERSON! Which is something impossible for you to know! Now you are trying to wiggle out of your unrighteous judgment by relabeling it an "observation". Even if we accept your "rewrite" the "observation" you made is still unScriptural and wrong because only God can make such "observations". Are you going to now apologize for "your unScriptual observation" which is above your pay grade? Quote
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Originally Posted By: pkrause What I did do was make an observation, based on what and how it was said toward others. No! you didn't just simply make an observation, you made a JUDGMENT AS TO THE SPIRITUALITY OF ONE PERSON AS OPPOSED TO ANOTHER PERSON! Which is something impossible for you to know! Now you are trying to wiggle out of your unrighteous judgment by relabeling it an "observation". Even if we accept your "rewrite" the "observation" you made is still unScriptural and wrong because only God can make such "observations". Are you going to now apologize for "your unScriptual observation" which is above your pay grade? Miz3, pkrause has no need to apologize for anything. On saying that I had never met anyone who knew the whole truth, most people with a modicum of common sense would have "known" that spiritual personalities were not implied. By the way, "Now you are trying to wiggle out of your unrighteous judgment" is as judgmental a statement as you will find, short of the Inquisition. Jawge Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)
Moderators John317 Posted July 10, 2011 Moderators Posted July 10, 2011 Originally Posted By: musicman1228 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:17. You are correct that SDA apply this to Ellen White. This text does not apply to any specific prophet. This text does not apply to Ellen White only. Most SDA believe that this text applies only to Ellen White. However, some recent clever SDA have tried to make Ellen White part of a group of prophets that fit this description. Yet historically SDA have applied this to ONLY Ellen White. This really isn't true. All you have to do is read the SDA books and Sabbath School quarterlies that deal with this verse. They all tell you that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy, which is the Holy Spirit who has inspired all the prophets. Ellen White is certainly included since she was a true prophet, inspired by the Holy Spirit. But we have never believed this verse to apply ONLY to Ellen White. What this particular verse shows is that the gift of prophecy will be manifested at the end among a group of Christ's followers who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Ellen White's prophetic ministry does fulfill that prophecy, but we don't teach that the Spirit of prophecy will never be manifested again or that Ellen White was the only fulfillment of it. In fact, we believe that there will be further manifestion of the gift of prophecy as predicted by the prophet Joel in chapter 2, verse 28. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Miz3: "You are correct that SDA apply this to Ellen White. This text does not apply to any specific prophet. This text does not apply to Ellen White only. Most SDA believe that this text applies only to Ellen White. However, some recent clever SDA have tried to make Ellen White part of a group of prophets that fit this description. Yet historically SDA have applied this to ONLY Ellen White." John317: "This really isn't true. All you have to do is read the SDA books and Sabbath School quarterlies that deal with this verse. They all tell you that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy, which is the Holy Spirit who has inspired all the prophets. Ellen White is certainly included since she was a true prophet, inspired by the Holy Spirit. But we have never believed this verse to apply ONLY to Ellen White. What this particular verse shows is that the gift of prophecy will be manifested at the end among a group of Christ's followers who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." And I (Dr. Rich) John317, have been a SDA longer than you have and I would say that what you wrote isn't all the truth. For over 50 years Adventists that I have known in high places have mistakenly believed that EGW's Testimonies that she wrote was the "Testimony" found in Rev. 12:17. But because of pressure from others, some of the them changed it to be like you wrote. The truth is, Jesus came to this earth for ONE main reason and that was to TESTIFY to the real truth and ONLY His words are what this "Testimony" really is. EGW is NOT a true prophet no matter how many times you reply in this blog, you can't make her a true prophet John! Why? Because MY picture is on the wall at the GC on the 'closed door' vision and this is now known by EVERYONE at the GC that it was wrong. How do you get rid of yeast in a loaf of bread already baked? You can't! You must throw the whole loaf away and start over with OUT any yeast! Quote
miz3 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Miz3, pkrause has no need to apologize for anything. On saying that I had never met anyone who knew the whole truth, most people with a modicum of common sense would have "known" that spiritual personalities were not implied. By the way, "Now you are trying to wiggle out of your unrighteous judgment" is as judgmental a statement as you will find, short of the Inquisition. Both of you know very well that the statement "never met anyone who knew the whole truth" is NOT THE STATEMENT I AM TALKING ABOUT! The statement pkrause should apologize for is the one in which he states that you (Jawge) "knew Jesus better than most people". That is a statement that is above his pay grade and a judgment that he has no right to make about anyone. Jawge you should not delight in receiving such a statement because when you do you elevate yourself above the rest of us humans and demonstrates a Spiritual superiority that you have no right to claim. You did respond to pkrause's statement that you are better than most other humans "in knowing Jesus Christ" by saying, "thank you pkrause"! By thus responding you are encouraging the sinful judgment made by pkrause which makes you just as involved in the sin as he is. These are not the actions of people who truly belong to Jesus Christ. This why I think pkrause and you too Jawge need to apologize not to me alone but to the whole Club Adventist website! Quote
miz3 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Quote: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:17. Quote: "At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."Revelation 19:10. Let's be completely honest! Historically SDA have linked both these texts to prove that Ellen White is inspired and more than this that these texts specifically were talking about Ellen White and ONLY ELLEN WHITE. It has only been a relatively recent phenomenon within SDA to give a broader meaning to these texts because it became obvious in the late 1970's and the 1980's that her writings were under great assault and this assault exposed truthfully many weaknesses that SDA had for decades swept under the rug and fully expected to stay under the rug forever. When the truthful weaknesses exposed Ellen White it became untenable any longer to paint Ellen White as the "perfect pristine prophet" that SDA had traditionally held her as being! As such SDA clever heads hoped to salvage some authority for Ellen White by claiming these texts in a broader way which they maintained included Ellen White. The fact is these texts do NOT talk in way shape or form about Ellen White as a prophet at all. These texts are talking about only those humans who adhere to the "testimony of Jesus Christ"! No more no less! In addition the phrase "Spirit of Prophecy" is not talking merely about "telling the future" or about "special divine messages to a few select ones". The Spirit of Prophecy is much broader than that minute narrow definition. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 10, 2011 Moderators Posted July 10, 2011 Quote: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:17. Quote: "At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."Revelation 19:10. Let's be completely honest! Historically SDA have linked both these texts to prove that Ellen White is inspired and more than this that these texts specifically were talking about Ellen White and ONLY ELLEN WHITE. You'll need some kind of documentary evidence for this claim. Ellen White certainly never used those verses in the way you claim. She did use the term "Spirit of proohecy" to refer to her own writings, but she also used the term in reference to Enoch's experience and to the rest of the Scriptures. By the way, those verses don't prove-- and cannot possibly prove-- that Ellen White was inspired. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 They all tell you that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy, which is the Holy Spirit who has inspired all the prophets. Revelation 12:7 and Revelation 19:10 are NOT STATING THAT THIS IS THE HOLY SPIRIT! If these texts were talking about the Holy Spirit they would have stated so and they do not state so! Bad Bible study! This tact is another weaselly attempt to make it about Ellen White through the back door! SDA have a giant problem if they try and demonstrate that Ellen White is "inspired" and is "prophetic" as were the Bible writers, by using the Scripture (Bible). The only way for SDA to truly and honestly make Ellen White a Divinely appointed messenger is to let her stand or fall on her own merits. Trying to legitimize her by using the Bible to forecast her coming is not do able if we are indeed trying to be honest! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 10, 2011 Moderators Posted July 10, 2011 Quote: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:17. Quote: "At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."Revelation 19:10. Let's be completely honest! Historically SDA have linked both these texts to prove that Ellen White is inspired and more than this that these texts specifically were talking about Ellen White and ONLY ELLEN WHITE. It has only been a relatively recent phenomenon within SDA to give a broader meaning to these texts because it became obvious in the late 1970's and the 1980's that her writings were under great assault and this assault exposed truthfully many weaknesses that SDA had for decades swept under the rug and fully expected to stay under the rug forever. When the truthful weaknesses exposed Ellen White it became untenable any longer to paint Ellen White as the "perfect pristine prophet" that SDA had traditionally held her as being! Do you have the book, The Bible, The Spirit of Prophecy, and the Church, by W.E. Read? It was published in 1952 by the Review and Herald Pub. See pages 110, 11, which discusses the fact that the phrase "Spirit of prophecy" is used in reference to many prophets. James White certainly never gave the impression that "the Spirit of prophecy" only refers to Ellen White, and that was long before the 1970s and 80s. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 10, 2011 Moderators Posted July 10, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 They all tell you that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy, which is the Holy Spirit who has inspired all the prophets. Revelation 12:7 and Revelation 19:10 are NOT STATING THAT THIS IS THE HOLY SPIRIT! The literal reading of Rev. 12: 17 and 19:10 is: "... those who obey [guard, keep watch over] the commandmens of God and hold to [have] the testimony of Jesus." "I am a fellow servant with you and with your brethren who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy." John gives us the definition of the term, "testimony of Jesus." Compare Rev. 19: 10 and 22: 9-- .... "your brethren who hold to the testimony of Jesus." ..."of your brethren the prophets." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 10, 2011 Moderators Posted July 10, 2011 ....The only way for SDA to truly and honestly make Ellen White a Divinely appointed messenger is to let her stand or fall on her own merits. Trying to legitimize her by using the Bible to forecast her coming is not do able if we are indeed trying to be honest! SDAs simply point out that the prophecy tells us that before Christ returns, God will have a people among whom is the gift of prophecy, and that this is one of the ways that the Bible describes this group of people. It's a people who come on the world scene some time after 1798, that is, about the time the first beast of Rev. 13 receives a mortal wound; and about the time that the earth-beast is coming up. This people also preach the Three Angels Messages and warn the whole world about the mark of the beast. So it will be a world-wide movement. They keep all the commandments of God, which means they will be Sabbath-keepers. They keep the faith of Jesus. The Holy Spirit will be manifested among them in the gift of prophecy. There will be at least one genuine prophet among them. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 10, 2011 Moderators Posted July 10, 2011 John317: "This really isn't true. All you have to do is read the SDA books and Sabbath School quarterlies that deal with this verse. They all tell you that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy, which is the Holy Spirit who has inspired all the prophets. Ellen White is certainly included since she was a true prophet, inspired by the Holy Spirit. But we have never believed this verse to apply ONLY to Ellen White. What this particular verse shows is that the gift of prophecy will be manifested at the end among a group of Christ's followers who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." And I (Dr. Rich) John317, have been a SDA longer than you have and I would say that what you wrote isn't all the truth. For over 50 years Adventists that I have known in high places have mistakenly believed that EGW's Testimonies that she wrote was the "Testimony" found in Rev. 12:17. But because of pressure from others, some of the them changed it to be like you wrote. All you have to do is go study the old books published by SDAs and see for yourself that we have never said that the "Spirit of prophecy" is limited to Ellen White. You need documentary evidence to support what you claim. The facts are that both James White and Ellen White used the phrase "Spirit of prophecy" to refer to more than merely the gift of prophecy as manifested in the ministry of Ellen White. She uses in in speaking of Enoch and of other prophets. I've already cited evidence from a book published in 1952 by the SDA church, called, The Bible, the Spirit of Prophecy, and the Church, showing that the Church didn't teach what is being claimed. If anyone doesn't believe this, let them go to Ellen White Estate and do their own research in the old SDA publications. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members phkrause Posted July 10, 2011 Members Posted July 10, 2011 Both of you know very well that the statement "never met anyone who knew the whole truth" is NOT THE STATEMENT I AM TALKING ABOUT! The statement pkrause should apologize for is the one in which he states that you (Jawge) "knew Jesus better than most people". That is a statement that is above his pay grade and a judgment that he has no right to make about anyone. Jawge you should not delight in receiving such a statement because when you do you elevate yourself above the rest of us humans and demonstrates a Spiritual superiority that you have no right to claim. You did respond to pkrause's statement that you are better than most other humans "in knowing Jesus Christ" by saying, "thank you pkrause"! By thus responding you are encouraging the sinful judgment made by pkrause which makes you just as involved in the sin as he is. These are not the actions of people who truly belong to Jesus Christ. This why I think pkrause and you too Jawge need to apologize not to me alone but to the whole Club Adventist website! Next time you quote someone please quote the whole thing, not just what you feel is what was said: miz3 I believe that when George says he has not met anyone that knows all truth, hes not talking about Jesus Christ. I think you know that. I'd say that from the many comments I've read that George knows Jesus Christ better than most of us. As you can see I mentioned most of us at the very end of that quote! Not "knew Jesus better than most people" Is that correct or not????? That my friend is a observation. The judging that the Bible speaks of his telling someone that they are going to be saved or not, that is judging someone, plain and simple. So there will be no apology since I would have to also apologies to myself as well, would I not????? Because in that observation I'm including myself as not knowing Christ as well as George. So if you really have a problem you can take it up with John. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
miz3 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 I'd say that from the many comments I've read that George knows Jesus Christ better than most of us. I agree that this is the offending comment! Again, you cannot know such a thing because you do not know what the relationship with Jesus Christ is for "most of us". We also know that you were including me in that statement and you do not know me in any way to make such a statement valid. This why your statement is wrong and is offensive. I cannot force you to apologize but that is something you need to do because you were wrong to make such a statement. Quote
ClubV12 Posted July 10, 2011 Author Posted July 10, 2011 miz3, just stop being a jerk and demanding anything from anybody. Your in no place to demand an apology from anyone the way you continually attack and accuse the brethren on every thread. If anyone needs to apologize around here, it's YOU! Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 As to John317's belief that the first beast of Rev. 13 has a fatal wound is false, it is one of the heads of that beast that has a fatal wound and that wound was from a war. All of the heads represent religions groups and the only one that lost it's right to worship the way it did from war was the Jews. As to John317's belief that SDAs believed that EGW's books were the SOP, and that the SOP (EGW;s books) is the testimony of Jesus, is from my own view point and not from anyone who wrote any book. I am a first hand eyewitness of what others have believed that I have talked to. Yeast, no matter how small amount, is impossible to remove from EGW's false or mistaken visions that she has claimed to have. Just because you have a personal bias about how nice she was, does not change the fact that she was wrong, not once, but many times. She had been made aware of these mistakes or lies, but she did not repent. She was also sick all of her life which fits the prophecy found in Rev. 2:18-26. It's not my fault that Jesus wanted to warn us about this--it is a fact! Quote
miz3 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 All you have to do is go study the old books published by SDAs and see for yourself that we have never said that the "Spirit of prophecy" is limited to Ellen White. You need documentary evidence to support what you claim. The facts are that both James White and Ellen White used the phrase "Spirit of prophecy" to refer to more than merely the gift of prophecy as manifested in the ministry of Ellen White. She uses in in speaking of Enoch and of other prophets. I've already cited evidence from a book published in 1952 by the SDA church, called, The Bible, the Spirit of Prophecy, and the Church, showing that the Church didn't teach what is being claimed. If anyone doesn't believe this, let them go to Ellen White Estate and do their own research in the old SDA publications. Citing one published work does not show what the culture of SDAism believes. I am telling you that the "culture" of SDA is that Revelation is telling us that Ellen White alone is being referenced specifically by these Revelation Scriptures. I sat in SDA schools, grew up in an SDA home, steeped in the local church knowing what bench sitters believe and were taught, rubbed shoulders with some of Church's big leaders, and some of the big name theologians and without exception they all interpreted both Revelation chapter twelve and Revelation chapter nineteen as referring ONLY TO ELLEN WHITE! This means that I am steeped in the culture enough to know what the culture is stating. I know what I was taught to believe by all these entities. It has been since the 1980s that a wounded SDA Church over the Ellen White scandals has been in constant repair mode in an effort to salvage Ellen White. Quote
miz3 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 miz3, just stop being a jerk Is this your Christ like character showing forth which you got by reading Ellen White? Quote
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