Did Jesus have faith?

[miz3]

God DID NOT send Satan to attack Job. All God did was allow Satan access to Job. This does not mean that God used Satan to go against Job anymore than God sent a demon to attack Paul. God does not use Satan to promote the Kingdom of Heaven anymore than Satan uses God to build up the kingdom of the world. God engineered NOTHING in the demon being in Paul, neither did God use Satan to attack Job. You cannot show me a single instance in the ministry of Jesus Christ where this kind of thing would have occurred. The reason why grace was sufficient for Paul was that Satan wanted to keep the demon in him, to keep Paul under control.

Again you err as to Scripture! Let us look at what Scripture says in the case of Job!

"One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD."

Job 1:6-12.

1. Notice it is God who engages Satan first and not Satan engaging God!

2. Verse eight God is the One who brings up Job! Satan did not! Why did God bring up Job out of the blue? Because God was baiting Satan into going after Job. Otherwise there is no reason whatsoever for God to bring up Job because Job was NOT ON SATAN'S MIND!

3. Verse twelve is very clear that God is sending Satan after Job!

4. God is using satan just as a carpenter uses a tool! God is the initiator in everything while satan can only react!

Both in fact and in context I did clearly state the Truth about Job in my previous post and in this post.

You are again the one who errs as to what the Scripture is saying about Job!

[miz3]

Can you find anywhere in the testimony of Jesus where He told His disciples that He wanted them to become weaker so He could become stronger? Jesus Christ is God, He has no need to suck power out of His servants so He can become stronger than He already is. However, this is something that Satan would try.

"He must become greater; I must become less."

John 3:30.

I would say becoming less is becoming "weaker". Of course you know that this is in reference to John the Baptist. This text is from John an eyewitness! Again, your own authority says different from what you asserted above. You can't even obey your own Authority.

Are you sure you even know what your Authority actually says?

I believe one case alone is sufficient to prove your theory wrong!

[miz3]

In fact the text in verse nine states the opposite. That Paul was POSSESSED BY GOD!

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: musicman1228

God DID NOT send Satan to attack Job. All God did was allow Satan access to Job. This does not mean that God used Satan to go against Job anymore than God sent a demon to attack Paul. God does not use Satan to promote the Kingdom of Heaven anymore than Satan uses God to build up the kingdom of the world. God engineered NOTHING in the demon being in Paul, neither did God use Satan to attack Job. You cannot show me a single instance in the ministry of Jesus Christ where this kind of thing would have occurred. The reason why grace was sufficient for Paul was that Satan wanted to keep the demon in him, to keep Paul under control.

Again you err as to Scripture! Let us look at what Scripture says in the case of Job!

"One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD."

Job 1:6-12.

1. Notice it is God who engages Satan first and not Satan engaging God!

But why did God do this? God must have had a reason, and that reason must be righteous. God does nothing that is not righteous.

2. Verse eight God is the One who brings up Job! Satan did not! Why did God bring up Job out of the blue? Because God was baiting Satan into going after Job. Otherwise there is no reason whatsoever for God to bring up Job because Job was NOT ON SATAN'S MIND!

God was not 'baiting' Satan, because that would have been a sin, and Satan would have instantly pointed that out. What argument did Satan continually use to try to prove to God and the Heavenly Court that he should continue to be the god of the earth (Satan became the ruler of the earth when Adam sinned, and turned the authority that God the Creator had over the Kingdom of Heaven (Adam and Eve in the Garden) over to Satan? Satan's argument was that there was no one on earth who was righteous, so why not just turn the earth over to him and have one small spot in the universe that would practice evil. This would show the universe the value of living under God's righteous rule rather than Satan's evil rulership.

God pointed to Job as an example of someone that was righteous, and that God was not going to give up the earth when there were still righteous people living there. Incidentally, this is what God is still saying to Satan, and shows that God still needs righteous people on earth.

3. Verse twelve is very clear that God is sending Satan after Job!

If this were true the Jesus Christ lied when He said the following:

“Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.   (26) And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?   (27) And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. Matt.12:25-27.

4. God is using satan just as a carpenter uses a tool! God is the initiator in everything while satan can only react!

So in your mind when someone gets sick or has financial difficulties, or has anything bad happen to him/her it is because God instructed Satan to cause this evil for the purpose of God teaching something to the unfortunate person to whom Satan is ministering? I find this idea repugnant, and Scripturally indefensible; see the verse above. If you truly believe this then you have a warped sense of truth.

Both in fact and in context I did clearly state the Truth about Job in my previous post and in this post.

You are again the one who errs as to what the Scripture is saying about Job!

Saying these things will not help your reputation improve. These words of yours speak to the arrogance of one that truly believes that they just can't be wrong. Again, humility will always win over hubris at the end.

[Dr. Rich]

[Words deleted by moderator.] Without Paul's words, there would be nothing to compare the truth to. That is why the prophecy about the wheat and tares is so important to understand.

[miz3]

Quote:

“Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. (26) And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? (27) And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. Matt.12:25-27.

The fact is Satan is actually working against himself. He cannot help it. When something becomes totally sin (sinful) they cannot help but destroy themselves. This is why Satan's house will not stand! It just a FACT!

It was not difficult for God to get Satan involved with Job! It was easy as the Scripture demonstrates.

[miz3]

Saying these things will not help your reputation improve. These words of yours speak to the arrogance of one that truly believes that they just can't be wrong. Again, humility will always win over hubris at the end.

1. My reputation is not why I assert the Truth. My reputation means nothing. The Truth (God) as stated in God's Word (Bible) is what counts. The FACT is I am RIGHT!

2. You are wrong. My words cannot be wrong as long as they are in perfect line with the Scripture and they are! That is not arrogance, that is FACT!

3. If you define humility as saying some FACT in the Bible might be true then leave me out. I have 100% confidence in the Bible as the Word of God and I will not pollute it by false humility.

4. You have no answer to the clear Word stated in Job that clearly states that God "INITIATED" the confrontation with satan and in addition God suckered satan into a deal that could end only in triumph and Glory for God!

You clearly stated the wrong position on this FACT and now you accuse me of arrogance. Such an accusation on your part is to cover the "arrogance" on you part which has been shown in clear Biblical Terms to be wrong! Wrong on Job and Wrong on Paul!

Since you have no factual response then you try and smear my character. That says volumes about your christianity! Have you no shame?

[miz3]

[Words deleted by the moderator.] Without Paul's words, there would be nothing to compare the truth to. That is why the prophecy about the wheat and tares is so important to understand.

This just stupidity in written words. The Truth does not need the counterfeit in order to show that it is True.

A True one dollar bill is True because it is True! It is not True because the counterfeit is false. DUH!

Treasury agents never ever learn how to tell the difference by handling both the true and the false. They learn by handling ONLY THE TRUE BILLS until they know absolutely everything about the true in every way possible.

That way when the false comes along it is easy to spot.

They found that when trainees handled both types of bills that it was infinitely harder to tell the difference between the true and the false. The trainees were more confused.

Therefore it is never necessary to know the false along with the true in order to which is which. You only need to know the True inside and out!

If your assertion were true then God would have made Adam and Eve from inception to know good and evil. Instead God made them to only know the GOOD! Adam and Eve's problems came when they indeed tried to understand both! If they had only stuck with the Truth then they would not have fallen!

You again err in regard to Truth because you do not know the Scriptures.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr.Rich

[Words deleted by the moderator.] Without Paul's words, there would be nothing to compare the truth to. That is why the prophecy about the wheat and tares is so important to understand.

This just stupidity in written words. The Truth does not need the counterfeit in order to show that it is True.

A True one dollar bill is True because it is True! It is not True because the counterfeit is false. DUH!

Treasury agents never ever learn how to tell the difference by handling both the true and the false. They learn by handling ONLY THE TRUE BILLS until they know absolutely everything about the true in every way possible.

That way when the false comes along it is easy to spot.

They found that when trainees handled both types of bills that it was infinitely harder to tell the difference between the true and the false. The trainees were more confused.

Therefore it is never necessary to know the false along with the true in order to which is which. You only need to know the True inside and out!

If your assertion were true then God would have made Adam and Eve from inception to know good and evil. Instead God made them to only know the GOOD! Adam and Eve's problems came when they indeed tried to understand both! If they had only stuck with the Truth then they would not have fallen!

You again err in regard to Truth because you do not know the Scriptures.

As a police investigator, I actually learned from those in the Department of the Treasury on how to spot a counterfiet note. At first we all were handed counterfiet notes and most of us could not tell the difference. But what you say is right in that we then had to learn everything about the real notes and when then happened, it was easy to spot the fake.

I suppose what I should have written is that God allowed Satan access to the NT just as He allowed Satan access to the Garden of Eden. The truth can be found in the NT, but the fake is also there. We all have been given a choice.

Someone in church today pointed out that one can't get rid of the yeast in the bread after it is cooked. They must throw the whole thing out and start fresh, just as Jesus said one must become like a child with a mind willing to learn in order to understand the real truth.

[miz3]

Someone in church today pointed out that one can't get rid of the yeast in the bread after it is cooked. They must throw the whole thing out and start fresh, just as Jesus said one must become like a child with a mind willing to learn in order to understand the real truth.

Given your statement above may be we should throw the whole Bible out because of the "yeast of Paul" and start all over again?

Besides there is nothing in Scripture that states that Paul is the "yeast of sin"!

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr.Rich

Someone in church today pointed out that one can't get rid of the yeast in the bread after it is cooked. They must throw the whole thing out and start fresh, just as Jesus said one must become like a child with a mind willing to learn in order to understand the real truth.

Given your statement above may be we should throw the whole Bible out because of the "yeast of Paul" and start all over again?

Besides there is nothing in Scripture that states that Paul is the "yeast of sin"!

Let's see now, 1 Tim. 2:7 "And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth."

1Tim. 2:11-12 "Let the women quitly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

On the other hand, Jesus said ""But do not be called Rabbi, for One is your Teacher and you are all brothers. ... and do not be called leaders, for One is your Leader, that is Christ." (Matt. 23:8-10)

Yep, to my open eyes, Paul clearly went against what Jesus instrusted.

[miz3]

Quote:

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

1Timothy chapter 2.

Dr. Rich here is the whole chapter so that we can get everything within context.

1. Paul states that we should pray for all persons especially those in authority because this pleases God and helps us to live in peace. Prayer also meets God's desire that all humans would be saved. We surely should delight if indeed all were to be saved. After all Jesus did give Himself on the Cross to save all humans.

Now surely you can't object to that!

2. Paul states in verse seven that it was for that very purpose that Paul was called by God to teach among the Gentiles.

3. Now to the female part of Paul's testimony to Timothy. To our day and culture this part does not work. However, Paul was speaking to Gentiles who for the most part viewed the role of woman as not being fit for leadership. Were their exceptions to this general cultural rule. Of course! In every male dominated society there have been exceptions. Does Deborah of the Old Testament ring a bell?

Paul is telling Timothy that Paul's policy in regard to women is the best policy given the culture they have to deal with. It is God inspired practical advice.

4. As to the "teacher" issue. There are actually two definitions of "teacher" in the Bible.

One definition, is about one who teaches another. For example a father teaches a son how handle the father's flocks of animals, or how to sheer a sheep, etc. When Christ made His Statement He was not talking about this kind of teacher.

Paul is referring to himself in this sense as the teacher to teach the Gentiles about Jesus Christ.

-----------------------------------------------------

Definition Two is about a Teacher is the fount of all knowledge and authority. This kind of Teacher is and has Authority over other humans who are to sit at his/her feet and are merely the Teacher's minions.

Jesus Christ was this kind of Teacher. Jesus was a Spiritual Teacher with Authority from Heaven. Jesus was telling His Disciples that they were never ever to be this kind of Teacher because Jesus Christ was Only One who would ever be this kind of Teacher.

Many humans in human history have tried to claim to be this kind of teacher. The Pharisees of Jesus day claimed to be this kind of teacher. Mohammed also claims to be this kind of teacher. pastorchick on this forum also claims to be this kind of teacher.

The fact is however Jesus Christ and Only Jesus Christ is and will ever be this Kind of Teacher!

5. Check out this text.

"Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Matthew 28:16-20.

Did you notice that Jesus Christ through His Eyewitness states in verse that the Disciples are to "teach them to obey everything I have commanded you." That makes them "teachers".

Your own Authority testifies against your assertion against Paul.

[Dr. Rich]

Did you notice that Jesus sent the disciples out to teach THE EXACT SAME THING THAT JESUS TAUGHT? And to KEEP and obey the words of Jesus? And to baptize? AND to the whole world, not just the Jews?

So why was it necessary for Paul to teach others his own gospel? How come Paul didn't go around doing the same thing the disciples did and baptize people too? Did Saul/Paul ever get baptized? And why don't you teach the exact same thing that Jesus taught? Sure, you are close to it, and I would even say much closer than most Adventists, but we are not playing horse shoes here.

BTW, Jesus prophesied that only a few would be on the narrow road to savation so what good would it do to pray for rulers of this world who are totally evil and have been placed there by Satan? If everyone in the whole world would be saved, then Jesus' prophecy would have been a lie and then we all would have been doomed. Satan is the ruler of this world and he has given his power to those humans who control the whole world, not just the leaders of the nations. This is what soon will be called the ONE World Order, the first beast of Rev. 13.

Jesus only prayed (Jn. 17) for those who read the words of His eyewitnesses who understand them and obey them. He did NOT pray for the leaders of this world and neither will I. He also did not pray for those who read Romans 13 and obey those words! I think I will do what Jesus did.

[Gerr]

ESV | Re 2:13 “ ‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and [b]you did not deny my faith....

[Dr. Rich]

ESV | Re 2:13 “ ‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and [b]you did not deny my faith....

This "Faith" is Strongs 4103, meaning the Gospel of Good Works. It is not Jesus' faith in His Father as you are attempting to assert.

We talk about people of 'faith' as people who have the gospel. Not of people who go around just hoping for things to happen.

We also use the word 'faith' as to find out what denomination one belongs to. MM is not denying the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, he is saying that Jesus KNEW the truth, therefore did not need simple faith as in hope.

[miz3]

Did you notice that Jesus sent the disciples out to teach THE EXACT SAME THING THAT JESUS TAUGHT? And to KEEP and obey the words of Jesus? And to baptize? AND to the whole world, not just the Jews?

So why was it necessary for Paul to teach others his own gospel? How come Paul didn't go around doing the same thing the disciples did and baptize people too? Did Saul/Paul ever get baptized? And why don't you teach the exact same thing that Jesus taught? Sure, you are close to it, and I would even say much closer than most Adventists, but we are not playing horse shoes here.

BTW, Jesus prophesied that only a few would be on the narrow road to savation so what good would it do to pray for rulers of this world who are totally evil and have been placed there by Satan? If everyone in the whole world would be saved, then Jesus' prophecy would have been a lie and then we all would have been doomed. Satan is the ruler of this world and he has given his power to those humans who control the whole world, not just the leaders of the nations. This is what soon will be called the ONE World Order, the first beast of Rev. 13.

Jesus only prayed (Jn. 17) for those who read the words of His eyewitnesses who understand them and obey them. He did NOT pray for the leaders of this world and neither will I. He also did not pray for those who read Romans 13 and obey those words! I think I will do what Jesus did.

1. Paul taught the same Gospel as Jesus Christ did and the Disciples of Jesus Christ did.

2. Baptism is a "RITUAL". Baptism is not a requirement for Salvation. Like circumcision, baptism of the HEART is needed not baptism of the water.

There is nothing wrong with the RITUAL! I believe the ritual of Baptism is a Godly ritual. But it is nonetheless a ritual. Communion is a Godly ritual, etc.

Rituals are not requirements for Salvation. As such it was not necessary for Paul to baptize with water but instead the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit. See the story of Cornelius and his family in the Book of Acts. The Holy Spirit confirmed their Conversion.

3. Paul and I teach the same thing Jesus Christ taught! If you noticed, and you should have noticed, I have used with you and musicman1228 extensive quotes from your Eyewitness Authority to demonstrate the Truth of my position and the wrongness of your position.

4. First it is not your prerogative to decide that the "rulers" are lost! You are not the Judge. God is the Judge and you might, just might, be surprised at who actually is in heaven. I think I see Pharisee in your judgmental attitude!

Second the narrow way was not intended to be a numerical restricter. The narrow way is a Spiritual Standard! The reason only few that find it is not because it is limited numerically but because so many REJECT IT!

5. Satan is not the ruler of anything! God is the Ruler of all things and God has always been the Ruler of all things. Maybe you should read Isaiah chapter forty.

6. You have only the public written prayers of Jesus Christ. However Jesus Christ prayed many more times than that. Thus, you don't know what or who Jesus Christ prayed for.

You presume far too much that is not in evidence! As a lawyer you should know better!

[Dr. Rich]

LOL miz3! I brush the dust off my feet and I think it is time to move on. It is clear that 'it' is your way or the hiway, no matter what Jesus said and taught! Hope you enjoy your trip on your nice wide hiway!

(I guess Jesus didn't get tempted by any ruler of this world--if that is what Miz3 believes, nor does the prophecy found in Dan. 2 means anything)

[Musicman1228]

1.

Originally Posted By: DR.Rich

Did you notice that Jesus sent the disciples out to teach THE EXACT SAME THING THAT JESUS TAUGHT? And to KEEP and obey the words of Jesus? And to baptize? AND to the whole world, not just the Jews?

So why was it necessary for Paul to teach others his own gospel? How come Paul didn't go around doing the same thing the disciples did and baptize people too? Did Saul/Paul ever get baptized? And why don't you teach the exact same thing that Jesus taught? Sure, you are close to it, and I would even say much closer than most Adventists, but we are not playing horse shoes here.

BTW, Jesus prophesied that only a few would be on the narrow road to savation so what good would it do to pray for rulers of this world who are totally evil and have been placed there by Satan? If everyone in the whole world would be saved, then Jesus' prophecy would have been a lie and then we all would have been doomed. Satan is the ruler of this world and he has given his power to those humans who control the whole world, not just the leaders of the nations. This is what soon will be called the ONE World Order, the first beast of Rev. 13.

Jesus only prayed (Jn. 17) for those who read the words of His eyewitnesses who understand them and obey them. He did NOT pray for the leaders of this world and neither will I. He also did not pray for those who read Romans 13 and obey those words! I think I will do what Jesus did.

1. Paul taught the same Gospel as Jesus Christ did and the Disciples of Jesus Christ did.

This is an out and out lie, and cannot be supported by either the words of Paul or the words of Jesus. Just because you declare it to be true does not make it true. Yes, Paul does teach things that similar to Jesus, but only on the surface. A deception requires that the deceiver be as close to the truth as possible so that the 'mark' (as in con game) is fooled into believing a lie as if it is the truth.

2. Baptism is a "RITUAL". Baptism is not a requirement for Salvation. Like circumcision, baptism of the HEART is needed not baptism of the water.

There is nothing wrong with the RITUAL! I believe the ritual of Baptism is a Godly ritual. But it is nonetheless a ritual. Communion is a Godly ritual, etc.

Rituals are not requirements for Salvation. As such it was not necessary for Paul to baptize with water but instead the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit. See the story of Cornelius and his family in the Book of Acts. The Holy Spirit confirmed their Conversion.

Jesus Christ Himself was baptized, both by water AND by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said what it takes to be saved in John 3:5. If we are to 'be like Jesus' then we need to do what He did-this includes baptism. Your apparent disinterest in wanting to 'be like Jesus' shows your true relationship with truth; i.e. none to speak of.

3. Paul and I teach the same thing Jesus Christ taught! If you noticed, and you should have noticed, I have used with you and musicman1228 extensive quotes from your Eyewitness Authority to demonstrate the Truth of my position and the wrongness of your position.

You and Paul do teach the same thing. You also believe some things that Jesus said. It is my observation that when what you believe that which is based on Paul disagrees with what Jesus said you will side with Paul over Jesus. This is to be expected from a Christian. And yes, you do use texts from the eyewitnesses - please refer back to the answer to #1 about deception. I will add that you are very adept at 'cut and paste' theology. You could actually teach a class in it that would be well attended by both followers of Paul and of EGW.

4. First it is not your prerogative to decide that the "rulers" are lost! You are not the Judge. God is the Judge and you might, just might, be surprised at who actually is in heaven. I think I see Pharisee in your judgmental attitude!

Second the narrow way was not intended to be a numerical restricter. The narrow way is a Spiritual Standard! The reason only few that find it is not because it is limited numerically but because so many REJECT IT!

Again, you have decided to interpret what Jesus said based on your perspective, thereby adding your own meaning to His words. What is it about the words 'many' and 'few' that do not act as numerical restrictors? Jesus said that MANY would find the wide road, and FEW would find the narrow road. But then you make the determination on your own that Jesus didn't meant it.

With respect to ruling authority, the issue is not deciding whether any particular ruler is lost, and this was never specified. The issue is whether God established rulers over civil populations that act in a wicked manner when they are in office. Since God IS NOT the ruler of the kingdom of the world therefore He has nothing to say about who Satan puts in those positions of authority that influence that kingdom (of the world. Jesus told Pilate explicitly that His (Jesus) Kingdom was NOT of this world. Again, here is another example of misinterpreting the words of Jesus to mean something He never intended.

5. Satan is not the ruler of anything! God is the Ruler of all things and God has always been the Ruler of all things. Maybe you should read Isaiah chapter forty.

You should read these verses: John 18:36, John 12:31, John 14:30, John 16:11. Adam turned over the authority to rule this world to Satan when he disobeyed God. Jesus came to restore that authority by obeying God. This restoration will occur at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet and not before.

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”  Rev. 11:15.

6. You have only the public written prayers of Jesus Christ. However Jesus Christ prayed many more times than that. Thus, you don't know what or who Jesus Christ prayed for.

True. But by the same criteria you also do not know who He did not pray for. This is a wasted argument.

You presume far too much that is not in evidence! As a lawyer you should know better!

Let me see your JD degree so that I may know you have the authority to say that 'a lawyer should know better'. It is not Dr. Rich that presumes too much, it is you.

[Dr. Rich]

Jesus' words: John 12:31: "Now judgment is upon this world, now the ruler of this world shall be cast out."

It would be silly to pray for the ruler of this world as that is Satan!

Paul's words: "...for rulers are servants of god..." (Rom 13)

Yep, Paul was right--in that the rulers are the servants for Paul's god--the same god that gave Paul a demon.

[miz3]

This is an out and out lie, and cannot be supported by either the words of Paul or the words of Jesus. Just because you declare it to be true does not make it true. Yes, Paul does teach things that similar to Jesus, but only on the surface. A deception requires that the deceiver be as close to the truth as possible so that the 'mark' (as in con game) is fooled into believing a lie as if it is the truth.

OK, give the differences between the Two Gospels with Scripture proof.

Tick them off one by one!

[miz3]

Jesus Christ Himself was baptized, both by water AND by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said what it takes to be saved in John 3:5. If we are to 'be like Jesus' then we need to do what He did-this includes baptism. Your apparent disinterest in wanting to 'be like Jesus' shows your true relationship with truth; i.e. none to speak of.

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word"

Ephesians 5:25-26.

I believe Scripture says the "water" is Spiritual not physical that means the "water" is as the text above states, "The Word of God"!

Thus, we are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ and the Water of His Word.(John 3:5.)

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."

1Peter 3:18-22.

Even your Eyewitness Peter says that baptism is only a symbol of the True Washing with Water in the Heart (conscience).

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You and Paul do teach the same thing. You also believe some things that Jesus said. It is my observation that when what you believe that which is based on Paul disagrees with what Jesus said you will side with Paul over Jesus. This is to be expected from a Christian. And yes, you do use texts from the eyewitnesses - please refer back to the answer to #1 about deception. I will add that you are very adept at 'cut and paste' theology. You could actually teach a class in it that would be well attended by both followers of Paul and of EGW.

As I asked before give a list with Scripture where Paul and Jesus Christ disagree!

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With respect to ruling authority, the issue is not deciding whether any particular ruler is lost, and this was never specified. The issue is whether God established rulers over civil populations that act in a wicked manner when they are in office. Since God IS NOT the ruler of the kingdom of the world therefore He has nothing to say about who Satan puts in those positions of authority that influence that kingdom (of the world. Jesus told Pilate explicitly that His (Jesus) Kingdom was NOT of this world. Again, here is another example of misinterpreting the words of Jesus to mean something He never intended.

I will quote the Old Testament because it is One of your Authorities as it is with me.

"At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.

His dominion is an eternal dominion;

his kingdom endures from generation to generation.

35 All the peoples of the earth

are regarded as nothing.

He does as he pleases

with the powers of heaven

and the peoples of the earth.

No one can hold back his hand

or say to him: “What have you done?”

36 At the same time that my sanity was restored, my honor and splendor were returned to me for the glory of my kingdom. My advisers and nobles sought me out, and I was restored to my throne and became even greater than before. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble."

Daniel 4:34-37.

1. It states that God's Kingdom is an Eternal Kingdom! (I believe that means never ending!)

2. God does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and also on the earth.

3. No one, including satan, can hold back His (God) Hand!

4. It was God who restored Nebuchadnezar's sanity and restored his power even greater than before.

Are you sure you know the Scripture?

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6. You have only the public written prayers of Jesus Christ. However Jesus Christ prayed many more times than that. Thus, you don't know what or who Jesus Christ prayed for.

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You should read these verses: John 18:36, John 12:31, John 14:30, John 16:11. Adam turned over the authority to rule this world to Satan when he disobeyed God. Jesus came to restore that authority by obeying God. This restoration will occur at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet and not before.

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” Rev. 11:15.

1. Three of four texts you cited state that "satan is the 'prince' of this world".

Now everyone knows that a prince is less than the King! God is King and has always been King as I pointed out to you in Isaiah chapter forty and Daniel chapter 4.

Although the prince may claim and exercise some power the prince can only do that which the King allows! I thought you were more educated than you are demonstrating.

In addition you must learn to not take specific phrases and build your whole theology on them especially when you take such phrases outside the context of the whole Word of God (Scripture, Bible).

Thus, satan is the prince and God has always been the King!

2. The fourth text you cited stated the Words of Jesus Christ in which He stated that "His Kingdom is not of this World".

Apparently you do not understand this Scripture or you would not have used in the way you did.

God's Kingdom is not like the kingdoms of this world which depend on horses, chariots, legions, cannons, bows and arrows, machine guns, tanks, armies, missiles, gold, silver, armies, etc.

God's Kingdom is much greater and more comprehensive than such fading things. God's Kingdom is a SPIRITUAL KINGDOM! As such this Kingdom has always existed and will always exist!

In this particular passage Jesus Christ is NOT SAYING THAT HIS KINGDOM IS NONEXISTENT which is the way you are interpreting it.

Jesus Christ is saying that the parameters of Victory and His Methods of Victory for His Kingdom which has always existed are different than the parameters and methods of earthly kingdoms.

Jesus Christ said this because Pilot did not understand how Jesus could be a King and had what appeared to be no support.

Like Pilot you are making the very same mistake which is why you do not understand any of the four texts you cited. This is because you take an "isolated phrase" and blow it up into a complete theory which such a phrase was never ever intended by God to be done. Thus, your ignorance of Scripture and what it says grows exponentially as well.