CAN YOU EXPLAIN JESUS WORDS?

[Lysimachus]

Well there it is Sky, here we see you posting Ellen White quotes and making your case they are forgeries. Not mere opinion, but forgeries by men, writing under the name of Ellen White. I'm afraid once you started down the path of declaring the GC to be in apostasy that led to your conclusion EGW's counsel to them (and Kellogg) was forged. Now any part of her writings (that you don't agree with) are called into question.

miz3 asked what the verse meant in this thread, here we have an example of precisely what it means.

Sky, your sheeps clothing has been revealed. Don't underestimate the discernment of a "newbie". One who is unencumbered by years of "tradition". Unconfused by years of study, which in many cases never leads those steeped in the truth, to find the truth.

I wonder, was it reading Kelloggs book that has led to this, or did that come after...

So far we have established 1893 as the earliest date to begin questioning of the Ellen Whites writings as forgeries, in Sky's opinion. That moves back by a full ten years the previous date of 1903. Where will it stop?

Well said ClubV12. I fear for many who were raised Adventist. Many begin to not appreciate the truth they have, and so the light within them turns to darkness.

I'm convinced it's going to be "newbies" that are going to be the main pillars to finish the work in the end. They have been untainted by the shadowy and spurious thoughts and doubts that infiltrate into the minds of those who already "don't know how good they've got it".

They can no longer appreciate the simplicity of the gospel, because they start to mystify everything and evaluate things to the point where it is impossible for them to reason simply without trying to dissect every word, sentence or phrase to see if perhaps they are missing some "truth" out of it, and end up making it say something in their minds it isn't even saying.

If God was able to protect His Bible over the last 4,000 years of human history, then surely God was able to protect the writings of Sister White, the Spirit of Prophecy, over the last 160+ years.

To say that her writings have been tampered with and cannot be trusted is sheer lunacy, and reveals belief in a weak and debilitating God.

As if God went through all that work giving Ellen White the prophetic gift, only to allow men to tamper with it so that it cannot be read. So what was God's point in giving her these messages if He already knew they would be tampered with?

Those who say such things about her writings reveal their lack in faith and trust in God.

[miz3]

Quote:

"My heart aches to see presidents of conferences taking the burden of selecting those whom they think they can mold to work with them in the field. They take those who will not differ with them, but will act like mere machines. No president has any right to do this." TM 304,305.

(1962 edition it is page 304 para one)!

This is what has exactly happened from top to bottom in the SDA Church for more than the last one hundred years!

I have seen this naked truth played out constantly within the SDA Church. The practice is so common it is done just like we humans breathe!

This just the way the business of the SDA Church is done!

To add insult to injury they then crow in the face of any opposition that "they are God's anointed" and as such should never be questioned!

I had a Conference President and many a pastor say this openly to me when I questioned their methods and plans! It is just shameful how these men and woman, "wolves in sheep's clothing" plunder the Church both Spiritually and also in regard to the Stewardship of God's Wealth!

[ClubV12]

As I've asked SO many times, what action if any, is now required on the part of myself, others, any member of the SDA church as a result of this counsel.

Just what steps are recommended? This reminds me of a "drive by shooting", the bullets are launched, the bodies are piling up, blood everywhere, but WHAT are we supposed to do about it, on a political or governing or church basis?

If you guys can't offer solutions, will you please put down the guns and step away?

[miz3]

"No truth does the Bible more clearly teach than that what we do is the result of what we are." Page 146, Education, Ellen G. White. 1952 edition.

This is for those who claim Ellen White as their "Authority"!

In other words there is nothing more clearly taught in the Bible than that "we do everything because of what we are"!

That means, my friends, she (Ellen White) teaches that we are NOT "Free Moral Agents"!

That is also what Matthew chapter seven is also teaching!

Either Ellen White contradicted herself or what she states above is exactly true. That humans do evil not because they "choose" to do evil but because of "what they are"!

The Bible as she states is "most clear" on this Truth also!

Once again we have demonstrated that humans are NOT FREE MORAL AGENTS!

Instead they are "SLAVES TO WHAT THEY ARE"! [that would be sin!]. They cannot help what they are because God cursed us humans because of what Adam did.

Thus, we are all wolves, thornbushes, bad trees! As we stated earlier the only way to not be these things is FOR THE POWER OF GOD TO CHANGE US (by His choice not our choice) and then make us into sheep, fig trees, and good trees!

That means God does what we cannot do and that is to change the "inner life" to be "GOOD" instead of the "evil" we were born with.

NO Choice! NO free moral agency! NO free choice whatsoever!

Thus, all the GLORY GOES TO GOD ALONE!

How great and marvelous, how merciful, and magnificent GOD IS!

[ClubV12]

I think thats a bit complicated miz3, I read it more simply than that.

"No truth does the Bible more clearly teach than that what we do is the result of what we are." Page 146, Education, Ellen G. White. 1952 edition.

I see it in the same manner as saying, "You are what you eat." Your actions, words, nuances, expressions bear testimony to "what we are". I choose to be more like Jesus and He has given us much counsel on how to do that. Through the health message He has given us we can have a clearer mind to understand spiritual things. Better physcial health to work for Him. The bible to feed our spiritual soul. Thus, beholding we become changed. We have choices to make, read or not read the bible daily. Accept or reject the excellent counsel of Ellen White to improve our lives.

Prayer, faith, love, study, diet, exercise, these are all choices that we may become more like Him.

[Nan]

from Miz3

Quote:

As we stated earlier the only way to not be these things is FOR THE POWER OF GOD TO CHANGE US (by His choice not our choice) and then make us into sheep, fig trees, and good trees

I cannot agree that we have no choice in the matter. While I do not disbelieve EGW, what I am saying is not from her words.

The Bible tells us that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

If that is the case, if God's pleasure prevailed, all would be saved.

When Jesus stood over Jerusalem and wept that her people would not receive Him, surely His tears prove that those people had choice.

Was Joshua mocking the Children of Israel when he asked them to choose Whom they would serve?

[Guest]

The truth will not be from the bible, but from ONLY the words of Jesus Christ.

[skyblue888]

I will second that: Without the help of the Holy Spirit we cannot understand the words of Jesus no matter how "educated" we may be in the schools of this world.

sky

[John317]

I am amazed that not one SDA let alone not one person period has no idea what this passage means!

Who says no one understand them?

Jesus is there giving us a way of distinguishing true prophets from the false.

Notice that Jesus did not say that there would only be false prophets after Him. Therefore, it is obvious that Jesus expected there to be some true prophets in the future.

I believe that Jesus' test here shows that Ellen White was a true prophet and that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. His test also proves that Muhammad was a false prophet.

[John317]

What does a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' look like? It looks like a sheep, not a wolf. And what is the purpose of a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'? To get into the sheep fold where are the sheep. Therefore, this type of entity AKA 'wolf in sheep's clothing' is a deception. And why does this deception work so well? Because the sheep in the sheepfold do not believe that God would EVER allow one of these entities to get into the sheep pen. And that, miz3, is why it works.

But Jesus did not leave us without a way of identifying them. The problem here is that only a few of the sheep recognize that there is a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' inside the pen. They see what is happening, they hear the deception, they try to sound the alarm but NO ONE is listening because they are 'fat, dumb and happy' eating up the fruit of this deception, and NOTHING will convince them that the fruit they are eating is anything but the real thing.

I can agree with the above, but not with the obvious allusion to your belief that the Scriptures themselves are polluted with the works of Satan. Jesus never implied or suggested this.

Quote:

... Jesus never promised an infallible source for truth within the sheep fold. He never promised us a 100% wholly inspired, inerrant, infallible Bible or prophetess that would only speak the truth. In fact in the above cited passage Jesus virtually guarantees that will not be the case. Why warn of a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' or say that there is a difference between good fruit and a good tree and bad fruit from a bad tree IF THERE WAS NOT GOING TO BE ANY BAD TREES OR BAD FRUIT.

....Therefore, be careful about who and what you believe; test it against the only source of truth, that is Jesus Christ. Test what you now believe to be true and don't assume that just because you have believed it for years that it is true; or that if the church, or Paul, or EGW says it is true that it is. And if it isn't true then cut it off and burn it, and replace it with the good fruit that only comes from the true source, the words of Jesus Christ.

The context of Jesus' words is a warning about false people among the followers of Christ, not that the Scriptures themselves will be false. In other words, Jesus is warning us against people who falsely claim to be Christians who teach the truth while actually teaching doctrines of devils.

[John317]

"No truth does the Bible more clearly teach than that what we do is the result of what we are." Page 146, Education, Ellen G. White. 1952 edition.

This is for those who claim Ellen White as their "Authority"!

In other words there is nothing more clearly taught in the Bible than that "we do everything because of what we are"!

That means, my friends, she (Ellen White) teaches that we are NOT "Free Moral Agents"!

You misunderstand Ellen White.

You need to read the passage in context and to consider everything Ellen White said about the topic. She clearly states elsewhere than human beings are "free moral agents." You make Ellen White contradict herself.

Here's the passage in context:

Quote:

As an educator no part of the Bible is of greater value than are its biographies. These biographies differ from all others in that they are absolutely true to life. It is impossible for any finite mind to interpret rightly, in all things, the workings of another. None but He who reads the heart, who discerns the secret springs of motive and action, can with absolute truth delineate character, or give a faithful picture of a human life. In God's word alone is found such delineation. {Ed 146.1}

No truth does the Bible more clearly teach than that what we do is the result of what we are. To a great degree the experiences of life are the fruition of our own thoughts and deeds. {Ed 146.2}

"The curse causeless shall not come." Proverbs 26:2. {Ed 146.3}

"Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him. . . . Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him." Isaiah 3:10, 11. {Ed 146.4}

"Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts." Jeremiah 6:19. {Ed 146.5}

Terrible is this truth, and deeply should it be impressed. Every deed reacts upon the doer. Never a human being but may recognize, in the evils that curse his life, fruitage of his own sowing. Yet even thus we are not without hope.

To gain the birthright that was his already by God's promise, Jacob resorted to fraud, and he reaped the harvest in his brother's hatred. Through twenty years of exile he was himself wronged and defrauded, and was at last forced to find safety in flight; and he reaped a second harvest, as the evils of his own character were seen to crop out in his sons--all but too true a picture of the retributions of human life. {Ed 146, 147}

She is saying we make ourselves what we are by our everyday decisions and choices. "Every deed reacts upon the doer." We choose to do the deeds; no one forces us to do what we do. And those deeds have consequences. Our characters are the result of our daily choices made throughout our lifetime.

[miz3]

I think thats a bit complicated miz3, I read it more simply than that.

"No truth does the Bible more clearly teach than that what we do is the result of what we are." Page 146, Education, Ellen G. White. 1952 edition.

I see it in the same manner as saying, "You are what you eat." Your actions, words, nuances, expressions bear testimony to "what we are". I choose to be more like Jesus and He has given us much counsel on how to do that. Through the health message He has given us we can have a clearer mind to understand spiritual things. Better physcial health to work for Him. The bible to feed our spiritual soul. Thus, beholding we become changed. We have choices to make, read or not read the bible daily. Accept or reject the excellent counsel of Ellen White to improve our lives.

Prayer, faith, love, study, diet, exercise, these are all choices that we may become more like Him.

I don't think it is complicated at all!

Simply stated:

"WE DO WHAT WE DO BECAUSE OF WHAT WE ARE!

That is simple enough! That is what the Bible says and that is what Ellen White says on page 146 of the Book Education!

As usual you stated the Principle backwards. You state that "what we are is because of what we do". That of course is not what the Bible says and it is not what Ellen White said on page 146, Education.

It is a "cause and effect" Principle and you must put it in the correct order for it to be true.

In the parable of Matthew chapter 7 to which we are referring Jesus Christ stated that it was because a tree was good that it produced good fruit. What you are determines what you produce!

You have it backwards ClubV12! See the quote and the underlined part above. Cause=what we are; result = what we do!

NO CHOICES! NO FREE WILL! NO FREE MORAL AGENTS!

[John317]

Excellent thoughts, Nan. Both the Bible and Ellen White are clear that people really do make genuine choices.

Who would dare to say, instance, that they are not responsible for what they choose to write?

I believe every member of CA would claim to be responsible for their words.

[John317]

NO CHOICES! NO FREE WILL! NO FREE MORAL AGENTS!

So why did you write the above exclamations? Did you have a genuine choice? Were you compelled to by circumstances beyond your control? Are you in control of your thoughts and words and behavior? Did you have a choice whether to write, "No choices!"?

[skyblue888]

Quote:

"My heart aches to see presidents of conferences taking the burden of selecting those whom they think they can mold to work with them in the field. They take those who will not differ with them, but will act like mere machines. No president has any right to do this." TM 304,305.

(1962 edition it is page 304 para one)!

This is what has exactly happened from top to bottom in the SDA Church for more than the last one hundred years!

I have seen this naked truth played out constantly within the SDA Church. The practice is so common it is done just like we humans breathe!

This just the way the business of the SDA Church is done!

To add insult to injury they then crow in the face of any opposition that "they are God's anointed" and as such should never be questioned!

I had a Conference President and many a pastor say this openly to me when I questioned their methods and plans! It is just shameful how these men and woman, "wolves in sheep's clothing" plunder the Church both Spiritually and also in regard to the Stewardship of God's Wealth!

"But the heart of the work, the great center, has been enfeebled by the mismanagement of men who have not kept pace with their Leader. Satan has diverted their money and their capabilities into wrong channels. Their precious time has been passing into eternity. The whole body is sick because of of mismanagement and miscalculation. The people to whom God has entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings. Has God made a mistake?" T.M.397.

This is what I have been saying for many years. As a people we have lost our spiritual bearings and yet we make every effort to give the appearance that things are as they should be and those who are lured into the church through our evangelistic campaigns, decade after decade, year after year, remain totally unaware of the fact that "Our position in the world is not what it should be." E.G. White, Testimonies, Vol.8,247, April 21, 1903.

Club, you keep asking the same question as to what is to be done. This has already been answered. There is nothing we can do except what the Lord said in 1901:

"Let me tell you, if your heart is in the work, and you have faith in God, you need not depend upon the sanction of any minister or any people; if you go right to work in the name of the Lord, in a humble way doing what you can do to teach the truth, God will vindicate you."

This last satement was made by Mrs. White at the 1901 General Conference. It is found on page 26 of the Bulletin.

"The brethren assented to the light God had given; but there were those connected with our institutions, especially with the Review and Herald office and the Conference, who brought in elements of unbelief, so that the light that was given was not acted upon. It was assented to, but no special change was made to bring about such a conditon of things that the power of God could be revealed among His people...

"Year after year the same acknowledgement was made, but the principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work. God gave them clear light as to what they should do and what they should not do, but they departed from the light." E.G. White, 1901 General Conferece Bulletin, p.23.

In 1903 she wrote,

"God has permitted the present crisis to come to open the eyes of those who desire to know the truth. He would have His people understand to what lengths the sophistry and devising of the enemy would lead... Few can see the meaning of the present apostasy. But the Lord has lifted the curtain, and has shown me its meaning, and the results that it will have if allowed to continue." A Solemn Warning, Oct.1, 1903.

Six years later she would write, "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481 (1909)

sky

[John317]

In 1903 she wrote,

"God has permitted the present crisis to come to open the eyes of those who desire to know the truth. He would have His people understand to what lengths the sophistry and devising of the enemy would lead... Few can see the meaning of the present apostasy. But the Lord has lifted the curtain, and has shown me its meaning, and the results that it will have if allowed to continue." A Solemn Warning, Oct.1, 1903.

You evidently have no doubt that Ellen White herself actually wrote the above Testimony.

What was the "present crisis" that Ellen White referred to in that quote? It was the crisis involved in The Living Temple and Kellogg's false teachings, etc., was it not?

[miz3]

I cannot agree that we have no choice in the matter. While I do not disbelieve EGW, what I am saying is not from her words.

The Bible tells us that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

If that is the case, if God's pleasure prevailed, all would be saved.

When Jesus stood over Jerusalem and wept that her people would not receive Him, surely His tears prove that those people had choice.

Was Joshua mocking the Children of Israel when he asked them to choose Whom they would serve?

It is not a matter of what I say. It is a matter of what the Bible says!

Almost all humans have been conditioned from the cradle that it is about the choices they make that brings the bad results.

However, on the fundamental level that is not true. On a fundamental level the Bible says: "WE DO WHAT WE DO BECAUSE OF WHAT WE ARE!

In other words we sin because we are sinful inside at the root!

This is a hard Doctrine for humans to accept! However the Bible in Matthew chapter seven is not lying! The passage clearly states the Principle of Cause and Effect.

A "fig tree" produces (results in, fruit, etc) figs because it is a "fig tree.

It doesn't produce the figs to prove that it is a fig tree. It is a fig tree regardless whether it produces figs or not. It is IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE FIG TREE TO PRODUCE apples, potatoes, grapes, dogs, cats, etc. The fig tree if it produces anything it must produce figs! That is all it can do! The fig tree has NO CHOICE! NO FREE WILL! NO FREE MORAL AGENCY!

Jesus Christ in Matthew chapter seven was saying people are in Principle like the fig tree! You produce what you are. We are "darkness" so we produce only "darkness". It is what we are.

If humans produce "good" it is not because "good" was our natural state. No we can only produce "good" because God put that "good" in us at our root. John chapter fifteen states that, that is Jesus Christ the Vine!

Now unless you think you are "naturally good apart from Jesus Christ there is no other conclusion then the conclusion I have stated because the Bible states so!

Do you believe that you have some "natural good apart from God"?

As to your Joshua incident that was not a call to "choose" it was a call to all who belonged to God to take up arms against the enemies of God! The incident was NOT trying to decide who was God's and who was not. They already knew who was who!

[John317]

"No truth does the Bible more clearly teach than that what we do is the result of what we are." Page 146, Education, Ellen G. White. 1952 edition.

This is for those who claim Ellen White as their "Authority"!

In other words there is nothing more clearly taught in the Bible than that "we do everything because of what we are"!

That means, my friends, she (Ellen White) teaches that we are NOT "Free Moral Agents"!

That is also what Matthew chapter seven is also teaching!

Either Ellen White contradicted herself or what she states above is exactly true. That humans do evil not because they "choose" to do evil but because of "what they are"!

The Bible as she states is "most clear" on this Truth also!

Once again we have demonstrated that humans are NOT FREE MORAL AGENTS!

Instead they are "SLAVES TO WHAT THEY ARE"! [that would be sin!]. They cannot help what they are because God cursed us humans because of what Adam did.

Thus, we are all wolves, thornbushes, bad trees! As we stated earlier the only way to not be these things is FOR THE POWER OF GOD TO CHANGE US (by His choice not our choice) and then make us into sheep, fig trees, and good trees!

All of the above is the result of your inability to control yourself and your thoughts and words. Is that true?

Your writing here does not appear to be well reasoned. Whose fault is this? On whom do you place the blame?

My suggestion is that we all read the quote in its full context, and consider other things Ellen White wrote on the same topic. We should practice the same principles of interpretation when we study the Bible. When we do that, we will see (in the present case) that Ellen White is not saying that we have no genuine choices. She is saying we make ourselves the people we are by our choices.

We are not robots in the hands of an irrational, unreasonable God, who holds people responsible, and punishes them, for behavior that is totally beyond their control.

[ClubV12]

It's a simple EGW quote, we are what we eat, sums it up. We choose all the time what to eat, when. Spiritual food is no different, we choose when to study and what. From that we become what we are and act accordingly.

...no mystery here.

[John317]

In 1903 she wrote,

"God has permitted the present crisis to come to open the eyes of those who desire to know the truth. He would have His people understand to what lengths the sophistry and devising of the enemy would lead... Few can see the meaning of the present apostasy. But the Lord has lifted the curtain, and has shown me its meaning, and the results that it will have if allowed to continue." A Solemn Warning, Oct.1, 1903.

The full context of the above quote, which you neglect for some reason to include in your quote:

October of 1903:

Quote:

God has permitted the presentation of the combination of good and evil in "Living Temple" to be made to reveal the danger threatening us. The working that has been so ingeniously carried on he has permitted in order that certain developments might be made, and that it might be seen what a man can do with human minds when he has obtained their confidence as a physician. God has permitted the present crisis to come to open the eyes of those who desire to know the truth. He would have His people understand to what lengths the sophistry and devising of the enemy would lead. {SpTB07 36.2}

Men have given to our leading physician allegiance that is due to God alone; and he has been permitted to show what self-exaltation will lead men to do. Scientific, spiritualistic sentiments, representing the Creator as an essence pervading all nature, have been given to our people, and have been received even by some who have had a long experience as teachers in the word of God. The results of this insidious devising will break out again and again. There are many for whom special efforts will have to be put forth to free them from this specious deception. {SpTB07 36.3}

I am now authorized to say that the time has come to take decided action. The development seen in the cause of God is similar to the development seen when Balaam caused Israel to sin just before they entered the promised land. How dangerous it is so to exalt any man that he becomes confused, and confuses the minds of others in regard to the truths that for the last fifty years the Lord has been giving his people. {SpTB07 36.4}

Few can see the meaning of the present apostasy. But the Lord has lifted the curtain, and has shown me its meaning, and the result that it will have if allowed to continue. We must now lift our voices in warning. Will our people acknowledge God as the supreme Ruler, or will they choose the misleading arguments and views that, when fully developed, make Him, in the minds of those who accept them, as nothingness? {SpTB07 37.1}

These words were spoken to me in the night season. The sentiments in "Living Temple" regarding the personality of God have been received even by men who have had a long experience in the truth. When such men consent to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we are no longer to regard the subject as a matter to be treated with the greatest delicacy. That those whom we thought sound in the faith should have failed to discern the specious, deadly influence of this science of evil, should alarm us as nothing else has alarmed us. {SpTB07 37.2}

Ellen White's words here leave us no doubt whatsoever that the "present crisis" is a reference to the departure from truth that was in The Living Temple.

Who wrote SpTBO7 36? Do you agree that the writer was Ellen G. White?

[miz3]

She is saying we make ourselves what we are by our everyday decisions and choices. "Every deed reacts upon the doer." We choose to do the deeds; no one forces us to do what we do. And those deeds have consequences. Our characters are the result of our daily choices made throughout our lifetime.

No John317 that is not the context!

Ellen White is saying that "we do evil because we are evil" and that the more evil we do makes us more entrenched to do evil and to love evil! The more we suffer the consequences. That is the CONTEXT!

The "thorn bush" of Matthew chapter seven suffers the consequences of being a thorn bush. It did not "choose" to be a thorn bush! It is a thorn bush and because it is a thorn bush it produces what thorn bushes produce and the result they reap the consequences of being a thorn bush and producing thorns. NO CHOICE! NO FREE WILL! NO FREE MORAL AGENCY!

THAT IS WHAT SHE IS SAYING!

Your first sentence above turns around the exact statement that Ellen White made. YOU MADE A FALSE STATEMENT OF WHAT ELLEN WHITE SAID! You cannot twist her words around!

She said:

"No truth does the Bible more clearly teach than that what we do is the result of what we are."

EDUCATION, page 146. 1952.

Your first sentence in your above quote is TOTALLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT I JUST QUOTED FROM BOOK EDUCATION!

[John317]

In other words we sin because we are sinful inside at the root!

That will always be true-- that is, that we are sinful inside at the root-- until Jesus comes, right?

So then, do we have a choice whether to commit sin or not?

Are you saying that I can't help myself when it comes to sinning against God-- that we MUST go on practicing sin?

Do we have a choice whether to accept Christ and the Holy Spirit and do what's right? (Granted that the Holy Spirit gives us the desire for God and truth, but we have a choice whether to resist God or accept Him, do we not?)

[ClubV12]

miz3, try one of the pink pills, maybe they work better than whatever it is your currently on. Whew, try relax...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

She is saying we make ourselves what we are by our everyday decisions and choices. "Every deed reacts upon the doer." We choose to do the deeds; no one forces us to do what we do. And those deeds have consequences. Our characters are the result of our daily choices made throughout our lifetime.

No John317 that is not the context!

Ellen White is saying that "we do evil because we are evil" and that the more evil we do makes us more entrenched to do evil and to love evil! The more we suffer the consequences. That is the CONTEXT!

... NO CHOICE! NO FREE WILL! NO FREE MORAL AGENCY!

THAT IS WHAT SHE IS SAYING!

Your first sentence above turns around the exact statement that Ellen White made. YOU MADE A FALSE STATEMENT OF WHAT ELLEN WHITE SAID! You cannot twist her words around!

Here is Ellen White's clear statement, so clear that no one can possibly misunderstand unless they are determined to do so:

Quote:

It is the special work of Satan in these last days to take possession of the minds of youth, to corrupt their thoughts, and inflame their passions, knowing that by thus doing he can lead them to moral pollution, and then all the noble faculties of the mind will become debased, and he can control them to suit his own purposes. All are free moral agents. And as such they must bring their thoughts to run in the right channel. Their meditations should be of that nature which will elevate their minds, and make Jesus and heaven the subjects of their thoughts. Here is a wide field in which the mind can safely range. If Satan seeks to divert the mind from this to low and sensual things, bring it back again, and place it on eternal things; and when the Lord sees the determined effort made to retain only pure thoughts, he will attract the mind, like the magnet, and purify the thoughts, and enable them to cleanse themselves from every secret sin. “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.” The first work for those who would reform, is to purify the imagination. If the mind is led out in a vicious direction, it must be restrained to dwell only upon pure and elevated subjects. When tempted to yield to a corrupt imagination, then flee to the throne of grace and pray for strength from Heaven. In the strength of God the imagination can be restricted to dwell upon things which are pure and heavenly. {ApM 29.3}

[John317]

Great comparison, Club. We are really made up of our "little" decision, many of which we thought were not important at all. In fact, we may have thought no one knew about them or noticed, and we forgot about them almost immediately.