The Lord's Two Prophets

[Musicman1228]

John,

Who is the message in Revelation for? Is it for and does it apply to all people throughout all of the ages? Was the 'time short' in the first century when Jesus gave this information to John? Certainly not. Jesus know there would be almost 2000 years before this information would be needed, which is why He told Daniel to 'go your way' and 'you will be awakened to your reward'. The phrase 'the time is short' only applies to the generation when the time is short, and not to any other.

The blessing given in the verse in Revelation is the same type of blessing seen in Daniel 12:12: Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.

This verse indicates that the blessing comes to the person that comes to the beginning of the 1335 literal days, because no human could come to the beginning of 1335 years and live to see the end of them. This blessing is something special; and the most special thing that we are all waiting for the to be sealed in righteousness. Would not that be the greatest blessing of all?

[Dr. Rich]

Blessed is Strongs 3107, "...to be 'Makarios, (blessed) is equivalent to having God's Kingdom whin one's heart." Being in the Kingdom of God aka Kingdom of Heaven is only for those who have been sanctified. Right? Well, maybe not, as we see that all of those right now in the KOH are sleeping, and only 5 (part of them) will enter the door, then perhaps right now you are correct John and I could agree with what you wrote on this. (I just tried to explain why I thought they would be sanctified)

It is MY OWN opinion that all of the book of Revelation is just ONE prophecy containing prophesies within it. Those who understand and therefore 'heed' what this says are the ones to who Jesus directed the 'memo' to, the bondservants living in the last generation.

John told us that he sent ALL of the book of revelation to the seven churches. Why? so that no one else could change any word or subtract any word in it, not because they had any idea what it meant.

By the way, because 144k are only a few, wouldn't one think that what the majority believe woul be wrong? And this is only counting those who are in the Adventist Church if I am correct. 144k is just a few among all Adventists. Right?

[John317]

John,

Who is the message in Revelation for? Is it for and does it apply to all people throughout all of the ages?

Based on what John the Beloved wrote in the prophecy, it seems obvious to me that it was intended for all Christians throughout the ages who would study it sincerely and honestly in order to understand it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't mean that certain parts of the book were clearly and equally understood by all the generations of Christians. But according to Jesus, there was and is a blessing in it for all believers who study it and obey it.

There is such a thing as "present truth," and "present truth" will always be understood by every generation for whom God intends the "present truth" to be understood and practiced.

I do believe-- as you no doubt believe also-- that the scenes depicting the end-times (especially chapters 12-22) are going to be understood better by those going through those events than they were understood by Christians living in previous centuries.

The problem with thinking that only the 144,000 or the last generation will understand the prophecy of Revelation is that one never knows if he or she is numbered among the 144,000 or is living in the last generation.

I think we have to assume that God will keep his promise to us that He will bless us and guide us into the truth if we study the prophecies with a teachable spirit and with the sincere desire to know the truth that God has for us at this time.

[John317]

Blessed is Strongs 3107, "...to be 'Makarios, (blessed) is equivalent to having God's Kingdom whin one's heart." Being in the Kingdom of God aka Kingdom of Heaven is only for those who have been sanctified. Right? Well, maybe not, as we see that all of those right now in the KOH are sleeping, and only 5 (part of them) will enter the door, then perhaps right now you are correct John and I could agree with what you wrote on this. (I just tried to explain why I thought they would be sanctified)

Actually I don't disagree with you that people to whom God sent prophecy are "sanctified." I am just saying that "blessed" is referring to something else.

The NT teaches that there are two ways of looking at "sanctification." One is instantaneous and takes place at the same time that believers are "justified" or put in right relationship with God. At that moment God sets people apart for His possession.

The other meaning of "sactification" refers to a process of becoming holy, which means believers are constantly in a process of separating sin from themselves, or overcoming sin and coming more and more into conformity with God's will and commandments.

So in this sense, the readers of the book of Revelation are "sanctified." That is, if they have truly accepted Christ as their Savior and Lord, they have been set apart for His possession and are in the process of learning and obeying God's will for their lives. This also brings true happiness, or blessings, the very thing that Rev. 1: 3 promises.

[John317]

....By the way, because 144k are only a few, wouldn't one think that what the majority believe woul be wrong? And this is only counting those who are in the Adventist Church if I am correct. 144k is just a few among all Adventists. Right?

But isn't God leading out a people and a church? Or is God only leading 144,000 individuals?

Do you believe that the 144,000 will have no relationship to the rest of the church in terms of their beliefs and teachings?

I do believe, as you do, that the 144,000 will be SDAs in the last generation. They will be SDAs because they will teach and practice the Three Angels Messages and hold to the Testimony of Jesus, which is the Spirit of propehcy. In other words, they will all be Sabbath keepers, not Sunday keepers.

[Truth Files]

"I do believe, as you do, that the 144,000 will be SDAs in the last generation. They will be SDAs because they will teach and practice the Three Angels Messages and hold to the Testimony of Jesus, which is the Spirit of propehcy. In other words, they will all be Sabbath keepers, not Sunday keepers."

>Why only 144,000 John317? .... this does not seem to make sense

>Here is why .... these are 144,000 of the 12 tribes of ethnic Israel .... not the church

>By description they are contrasted with their ancient ancestors [the Israelites] who were led into idolatry by foreign pagan women .... these will not do the same ..... they will have discovered the truth about Jesus Christ .... their true Messian and King

..... the very first [first fruits] believers of the coming tribulation period [the Lord's hour of trial]

>If you are a believer in Jesus Christ you will observe these 144,000 sealed mortals children of Israel on the earth as they take the gospel to Israel and to the nations at the time [Revelation 6:2; 14:6-7] [and the Lord will lead them .... although He will not be seen by the world in the process].... and you will be with the Lord in the heavenly state of existence [Revelation 7:9-21]

[Dr. Rich]

John317, I liked all of your replies and would tend to agree with all of them. I, like you are sure that people were blessed by reading the words in Revelation while not understanding them if they took Rev. 12:17 serious, while not knowing if they were going to be in the 144k or not. EGW surely believed she was going to be among the 144k and said so early in her life's work. But now that she isn't among the living in the last generation, that is not a possibility.

And you already know that I believe the 144k are the ones who wake up the sleeping ten virgins, and we know that the 5 wise virgins are only a symbol of the true amount of those within the Adventist Church, as that could and should be hundreds of thousands, and hopefully millions!

This does not cut out those that are not Adventist members, but do keep the ten commandments (including the 4th) and the words of Jesus Christ. (Rev. 12:17).

And I do not agree with Truth Files' opinion on the Jews being the 144k as Jesus made it clear in Matthew 21:43, as God did in Dan. 2's 'rock cut out w/o hands', that Israel/Jews are now considered just another nation/kingdom in the kingdoms/nations of the world. Rev. 5:9-10 also proves that the 144k are not all Jews. It also proves that God has no favorite race, tribe or people anymore, as God wants people who sincerely love Him by showing they love Him in keeping all of His commandments.

[Guest]

You got the commandments part right Rich. It's amazing how you can be so far off on everything else. Especially when it comes to EGW, and the book of Revelation.

[Dr. Rich]

You got the commandments part right Rich. It's amazing how you can be so far off on everything else. Especially when it comes to EGW, and the book of Revelation.

Huh? But don't you agree that even EGW wrote and said not to take her words as inerrant? All I am doing is agreeing with this. Surly you don't agree with everything she wrote, do you? Even one of our pastors does not agree with everything she wrote!

[Truth Files]

"And I do not agree with Truth Files' opinion on the Jews being the 144k"

>Will you be one of the 144000 Dr.?

>If so, which tribe are you associated with?

>And give me you interpretation of Ezekiel 47:13; 48:1-35 .... who are the subjects and when and where is this setting?

[wayfinder]

Matthew 3:9 NAS

and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham

[Dr. Rich]

"And I do not agree with Truth Files' opinion on the Jews being the 144k"

>Will you be one of the 144000 Dr.?

>If so, which tribe are you associated with?

>And give me you interpretation of Ezekiel 47:13; 48:1-35 .... who are the subjects and when and where is this setting?

TF, Yes my friend, I have made the choice (it is our choice) to be a bond servant of Jesus Christ and in Him only. IF what I now believe to be true by the evidence supplied by Jesus Christ, then time for the end will be during the next ten years and IF I am still alive, my being older than most here I suppose, then if I am still obeying all of the commandments and the words of Jesus Christ as found in Rev. 12:17, I will be placed one on the list of being blameless as found in Rev. 14:5.

Of course, knowing myself right now, it is hard for me to even think about this as I have learned there is much more to learn and when you learn that I find that there is still much more to learn.

But, haveing said this, I have also considered the fact that I have not been able to find anyone else in the world who is not practicing any lies (other than just a few I know). The world is full of lies and fighting them by presenting light in dark places is a threat to the leaders of the world and they have shown me their contempt for what I am doing. A month does not go by without receiving threats from someone about the light I am shining upon them.

Some day soon you will hear about 'things' that will make your hair stand up and make you gasp for air. But that will only be 'at the proper time' as found in Matthew 24:45. What you read from Wayfinder, MM and I are just kids play at this time. Stay tuned!

[Lysimachus]

TF, Yes my friend, I have made the choice (it is our choice) to be a bond servant of Jesus Christ and in Him only. IF what I now believe to be true by the evidence supplied by Jesus Christ, then time for the end will be during the next ten years and IF I am still alive, my being older than most here I suppose, then if I am still obeying all of the commandments and the words of Jesus Christ as found in Rev. 12:17, I will be placed one on the list of being blameless as found in Rev. 14:5.

Of course, knowing myself right now, it is hard for me to even think about this as I have learned there is much more to learn and when you learn that I find that there is still much more to learn.

But, haveing said this, I have also considered the fact that I have not been able to find anyone else in the world who is not practicing any lies (other than just a few I know). The world is full of lies and fighting them by presenting light in dark places is a threat to the leaders of the world and they have shown me their contempt for what I am doing. A month does not go by without receiving threats from someone about the light I am shining upon them.

Some day soon you will hear about 'things' that will make your hair stand up and make you gasp for air. But that will only be 'at the proper time' as found in Matthew 24:45. What you read from Wayfinder, MM and I are just kids play at this time. Stay tuned!

Thank you for this post Dr. Rich. I appreciate it, and I thank you for coming to our aid. Now is the time, more than ever before, that we unite in the faith. We Adventists have no time to lose, and we can no longer afford to be bickering and fighting amongst ourselves. The voice of the False Prophet is getting louder and louder, and we must be prepared for the onslaught and vitriolic hatred that is soon to be unleashed upon Adventism and what it stands for.

May we stand up for truth and righteousness, and may we all be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us, and respond with ONE VOICE, and all "speak the same thing!"

When our enemies see that we are all speaking the same thing, they will be astounded at our unity. And it is this unity that will bring about the Latter Rain. It is this Unity that will fulfill the prayer of Christ in John 17, that we may be one with one another as the Father and Son are one. :)