This will challenge you...

[fccool]

Or perhaps not, but it's a great article to think about certain things that deal with understanding people, and law vs love.

http://freebelievers.com/blog-entry/knowing-your-generation

[Tom Wetmore]

Thanks for the link. I'll have to explore it a bit more later but the site seems to be intriguing.

[LifeHiscost]

Or perhaps not, but it's a great article to think about certain things that deal with understanding people, and law vs love.

http://freebelievers.com/blog-entry/knowing-your-generation

[fccool]

Quote:

Having read a good portion of the page indicated, it reminds me of anyone who picks and chooses the Scriptures that make them feel good.

The issue with speaking with "scripture" as your words is that you inevitably end up doing what you claim to be problematic.

Bible is not a quotation book that you can search for isolated phrases and sentences for whatever it is that you seek support for. Such approach lacks depth and meaning.

The point of the article is that "super-spiritualism" is so rampant in the church that it breeds a whole lots of hypocrisy and dishonesty in people. It forces them to fake something, rather than accept who they are and work from it as a starting point.

Instead, this idea of "out-amening", "outquoting", "outdressing", "outpraying", and "outmiracleobserving" makes out modern Christianity and Adventism to be a sham.

People start connecting dots with God where there is no God. They start saying things like "And God told me" or "And I heard a voice" where there's no indication that God works that way at all if you are being honest.

This article simply addresses this dishonesty and urges to drop it.

[teresaq]

From what I skimmed of that article it does seem great! I see this as a companion to that one.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post308330

[LifeHiscost]

From what I skimmed of that article it does seem great! I see this as a companion to that one.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post308330

"Remember that every soul striving to advance in the divine life finds every inch of ground disputed by an antagonistic force, and he must gird himself for the conflict by earnest prayer, and fight the good fight of faith. He is called to “wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Ephesians 6:12). We cannot afford to be found warring against each other. If we make progress in spirituality, we must gird the loins of the mind about with truth, and we must have on the breastplate of righteousness, we must take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit. Brethren, seek God. Seek Him while He is to be found, call ye upon Him while He is nigh.

Oh, what deep, rich experiences we might gain if we were devoting all our God-given ability to seeking knowledge and spiritual strength from God in the place of devoting our powers to hurting one another. Brethren, love one another as Christ has loved you. How little we really know of sweet communion with God! How little we know of the mysteries of the future life! We may know far more than we do know if all our powers are sanctified to discern the character of Christ. There are heights for us to reach, depths of experience to sound, if we are to be the light of the world. Then why dishonor God by contention and strife? Why question and find fault with one another? Why misinterpret and misconstrue the words and acts of your brethren?"Love, the Need of the Church,” 1892.Ms. 24, 1892, pp. 1-9 Bold emphasis mine LHC

"Prepared or unprepared, God’s people must all meet the soon-coming crisis; and those only who have brought their lives into conformity to the divine standard will stand firm. When secular rulers unite with ministers of religion to dictate in matters of conscience, then it will be seen who really fear and serve God. And while the enemies of truth watch the Lord’s servants for evil, God will watch over them for good. He will be to them as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land. Once more, because of hatred, a servant of God was driven for protection to the heathen. This same hatred forced Elijah to flee to the widow of Sarepta; and it forced the heralds of the gospel to turn from the Jews to the Gentiles. And this hatred the people of God living in this age have yet to meet. Men claiming to be Christ’s representatives will take a course similar to that of the priests and rulers in their treatment of Christ and the apostles. Faithful servants of God will encounter the same hardness of heart, the same cruel determination, the same unyielding hatred.

Those who are true to God will be persecuted, their motives impugned, their best efforts misinterpreted, and their names cast out as evil. Satan will work with all his deceptive power to make evil appear good, and good evil. Fiercely will he strive to stir up against God’s people the rage of those who, while claiming to be righteous, trample on the law of God. It will require the firmest trust, the most heroic purpose, to hold fast the faith once delivered to the saints."

From Trials to Triumph, Page 226 Bold emphasis mine LHC

God blesses!

[fccool]

Lifehost,

I'm going to say this as respectfully as I can. I know that your belief revolves around the idea that Bible and E.G. White texts can't go wrong in terms of quoting them as a response. I respect that.

I just wonder if you can carry on an intelligent conversation without pasting large amounts of quotes? I think I'd prefer that. What happens to you when you don't have any access to cutting and pasting these sources?

[ClubV12]

fccool, I think thats a rather unfair comparison. This is a forum, on computers, we all have access to the same potential data base to draw from. It's fundamentally different than having lunch at a restaurant. Where I might choose to quote EGW from memory. Perhaps I will be able to recall the exact quote and book, perhaps not. You can then choose to believe it, or not, or do a search when you get home. Or, depending on the importance, I can look it up and get back to you. Fact is, a lot of SDA's I know do this frequently! Same goes for a bible quotation, we don't always remember the exact verse. That doesn't mean we can't have an "intelligent conversation".

I'm going to say this as respectfully as I can. To suggest we can't have a normal conversation without a computer at hand, is rather narcissistic! :)

[fccool]

I don't think it's unfair. If you carry a regular conversation with anyone who's 95% response is a verbatim quote of some sort... that would get annoying fairly fast

I really can't hold intelligent conversation or respond in some coherent way to this way of communication, because there is no response other than a quote of some sort. There's no context for the quote provided. A lot of times it's just a bunch of copy/paste ... as an attempt to prove some point.

I'm not suggesting that people would stop quoting. I'm suggesting that some people hide behind quotes as a way to discuss certain issues. It makes it look like they have very little understanding or opinion of their own.

[ClubV12]

I like the quotes! All though, I'll admit, at times there are to lengthy.

But the fact is, we ALL have "computers" for our source material here, it's fair game to use them! I don't see it as hiding, I see it as good research, considering the tools we have at our disposal on a forum.

Many times my own opinions or posts are little more than a paraphrase of what I've read in the bible or the SOP. Sometimes I copy and paste directly from the source. I'm OK with that...

As an SDA web site, quoting EGW should be welcome with open arms, or quotes from the bible, to get your point across. Now that won't work in some of the engineering forums I hang with. But I won't hesitate to quote Smokey Yunick or some other "authority" on the subject at hand. If I DID quote Ellen White as it concerns NASCAR, I would most certainly "paraphrase" it!!

[fccool]

Quote:

But the fact is, we ALL have "computers" for our source material here, it's fair game to use them! I don't see it as hiding, I see it as good research, considering the tools we have at our disposal on a forum.

My gripe is not about using computers, or not quoting from memory. My gripe is about certain people use quotes as a majority of their response content.

That's the reason why I said that if such people would not have their resources to cut/paste from, there would arguably be very little conversation left.

Quote:

Many times my own opinions or posts are little more than a paraphrase of what I've read in the bible or the SOP. Sometimes I copy and paste directly from the source. I'm OK with that...

Paraphrase at least signifies your understanding. Constant cut/paste without any underlying context exposition demonstrates lack of willingness to participate in intelligent discussion. That type of stuff gets you an "F" in pretty much all of your research classes

Quote:

As an SDA web site, quoting EGW should be welcome with open arms, or quotes from the bible, to get your point across.

Consider if my responses to you were 90% quotes from Wikipedia. I think it would get annoying fairly fast.

[ClubV12]

Now, I gotta wonder, is it more acceptable to post a link or a quote, to get your point across?

So, if were having this conversation in a restaurant, I guess you could "text" the link to the quote and that would be more acceptable?

[fccool]

Of course it's acceptable. But if that's the only thing you do... then I would not call it a conversation. It's like talking to a search engine or a quote generator.

The point of a discussion is discussing.

[ClubV12]

I do see your point fccool. Never the less, there is such a vast data base available to quote from, just on EGW alone, I do consider a well placed quote, with or without comment, a valid and welcome part of a forum discussion.

Man, I've spent considerable time myself, searching for just the right quote to sum up my position. So it can and often does take some effort.

What I DON'T like is a quote that is difficult to tie in to the subject at hand, especially if it's a lengthy one that leaves you scratching your head. But then again, I see plenty of personal opinions, quite lengthy, that are equally worthless.

[fccool]

Fair enough.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

As an SDA web site,....

I haven't considered this website as "Adventist" for quite some time now....

[ClubV12]

Eh eh, I know what you mean, but it is, and I remain hopeful!

We have an impressive number of biblical scholars around here and of course our resident scholar/moderator, John317. I've learned a LOT and read some great quotes from different posters, which often prompt further study. Seen some terrific links and got some great insights from personal opinion's.

But at times, it is a challenge to wade through the never ending barrage of useless data and false doctrine. Some folks are really "out there" in their biblical views.

[fccool]

My guess is that you have not read the article that this thread is discussing ?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

My guess is that you have not read the article that this thread is discussing ?

If you're "guessing" is aimed at me, you are very wrong. I did, in fact, read the article before I posted. Never underestimate someone... it's not...wise....

[teresaq]

I don't think it was, rw. :)

[fccool]

Quote:

If you're "guessing" is aimed at me, you are very wrong. I did, in fact, read the article before I posted. Never underestimate someone... it's not...wise....

Nop, not you . Although I wished that this thread would stay on topic and discussed the article, but that's new?

[teresaq]

The 8th paragraph is one I understand so well!! Or makes me think of what I see so often in our church.

One lady has given up secular tv and now watches, 3ABN, HOPE, etc. as do some others. Those stations do have much good, but so many people seem to get their biblical understanding second-hand. They can quote various bible studies verbatim--but the thinking and comprehension level is close to nil.

It seems impossible to conversate-I know it isn't technically a word, but I don't care -with them, because what they memorized or learned didn't cover the point being brought up. Invariably, in order to get the "upper hand" again they have to start picking at what is being said, misunderstanding or misrepresenting.

In my own interactions with non-believers they don't answer according to the script, so I have to be really in tune with God as to know how to respond-when I think of it.

It seems to me that after a while any possibility of actual growth and learning becomes impossible much the same as if we refused to exercise our physical body.

Hmmm, that triggers a thought. lol How many of us would eat what someone else has already chewed up and then handed it to us for our consumption?

[LifeHiscost]

I'm not suggesting that people would stop quoting. I'm suggesting that some people hide behind quotes as a way to discuss certain issues. It makes it look like they have very little understanding or opinion of their own.

When this below comes to pass I'll take your opinion with the importance it deserves, just as I always have. And the only opinion I do have will never be sufficient to take precedence over the Word.

"“The time is surely coming,” says the Sovereign Lord,“when I will send a famine on the land—not a famine of bread or water but of hearing the words of the Lord."Amos 8:11 NLT

"“Who does the Lord think we are?” they ask.

“Why does he speak to us like this?

Are we little children,

just recently weaned?

He tells us everything over and over—

one line at a time,

one line at a time,

a little here,

and a little there!”

So now God will have to speak to his people

through foreign oppressors who speak a strange language!"Isaiah 28:9-11 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

The point of a discussion is discussing.

I will have to admit, I always thought a discussion was to convey ideas and conclusions. But then in this world, my bad.

As Martin Luther once said, "Here I stand. I can do no other."

When I am notified that the Word is no longer welcome on Club Adventist, I will take my leave. Perhaps someone could get up a petition. That seems to be "cool" these days.

Truth by "cool"! Is that really an original thought? Maybe I can get on that other thread. Or maybe we could go by "Truth by opinion"? Would that work with "Truth by cool!" 'Course one would have to be united in opinion in order to be cool. Lot'a luck there. I think that is being set to legislation now as we speak.

"And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. "

Revelation 13:16-18 NASB

God blesses!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: fccool

I'm not suggesting that people would stop quoting. I'm suggesting that some people hide behind quotes as a way to discuss certain issues. It makes it look like they have very little understanding or opinion of their own.

And the only opinion I do have will never be sufficient to take precedence over the Word. ...

Putting in my 2 cents worth, it is your opinion, or understanding, of what the texts you throw out are saying re: any particular issue under discussion.

The texts you throw out mean something to you, but go over many others heads as to just what you are trying to say.