This will challenge you...

[ClubV12]

...frankly, much of that article went over my head. I read it twice and I still don't know what the big deal is.

I definitely don't agree with much of it.

[Tom Wetmore]

In my own interactions with non-believers they don't answer according to the script...

This triggers a thought for me. Yes, scripted Christians. Speaking the lines as they memorized them. Actors on a stage, reciting the scripted lines of a drama... Jesus used the Greek word for actor to describe certain religious folk of his time...

The confusion you described in encounters with such folk when you ask something outside the script - It gets the same reaction as if you went to a play and stepped up on the stage and tried to have a conversation with one of the actors during the play.

[teresaq]

You understand!! lol Thanks for making my day. :)

[teresaq]

...frankly, much of that article went over my head. I read it twice and I still don't know what the big deal is.

I definitely don't agree with much of it.

Yes, it would be hard to agree with something one doesn't understand.

Reminds me of a specific bible verse.

[ClubV12]

I don't get what the "big deal" is, is what I don't get! I was surprised at the comments below it. Right on! Go get 'em brother! Tell it like it is!

I'm like what???? Am I the only that see's a problem here? There is nothing new here, people have been making excuses for their behaviour since Moses. Talking about Moses...

What about Moses allowing divorce, for instance. What is the lesson there for us today? Divorce is OK, you know, because we can't handle the truth? We should bend the rules because any given generation can't relate to them? Learn to get along, at all costs? Uh, no, I don't think so...

[teresaq]

I didn't read the article to say that...I read it to say, generally speaking that, we all have a picture of what a "Christian" should be without checking out if that was the same picture God intended.

frankly, much of that article went over my head.

usually means one doesn't understand...

[teresaq]

In reply to Tom's post, another thought occurs to me, that it explains why there can be so much misunderstanding on the board. If some of the participants are going by a script as in a play and another comes along as you say, there is this desperate attempt to tie it into the play, get it back to the script.

Knowing that doesn't help much tho. :(

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't get what the "big deal" is, is what I don't get! I was surprised at the comments below it. Right on! Go get 'em brother! Tell it like it is!

I'm like what???? Am I the only that see's a problem here? There is nothing new here, people have been making excuses for their behaviour since Moses. Talking about Moses...

What about Moses allowing divorce, for instance. What is the lesson there for us today? Divorce is OK, you know, because we can't handle the truth? We should bend the rules because any given generation can't relate to them? Learn to get along, at all costs? Uh, no, I don't think so...

ClubV12, what I got out of the "article" is that it was apparently written by a pastor who felt that everyone looks at him as "perfect" and in harmony with everything God says in the Bible. This pastor thinks that he needs to present himself to people as being the unchristian person that he is (and that includes virtually all of us).

In a way, I can see his point. But in another way, the pastor is supposed to be feeding the sheep. The sheep look to the shepherd as a guide. So...like it or not, I tend to look at pastors' words and actions in a critical manner...are they walking the talk? I think it's a difficult job.

The generational gist of the article is bunk. IMHO.

[Aliensanctuary]

fc,

Thank you for the link. I've been exploring the website, listenting to some podcasts. I think this may help me with my negative, anti-church, anti-religion, anti-prophet attitude.

Negative energy helps no one. It's the positive energy directed towards our community that can make a difference.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

And the only opinion I do have will never be sufficient to take precedence over the Word. ...

Putting in my 2 cents worth, it is your opinion, or understanding, of what the texts you throw out are saying re: any particular issue under discussion.

The texts you throw out mean something to you, but go over many others heads as to just what you are trying to say.

First, I am not trying to say anything. Let the Word speak for itself and there will be those who hear the voice of God speaking to them through that Word, and some others, like the king (I believe in the book of Jeremiah)will tear the Words to shreds and toss them in the fire. It won't change the meaning of the Word and the handling of it will bring sure results in the same way it was received.

For those who find no meaning in them, when it is their time to understand, the Word will be made plain by the Person Who sent them.

As to the conclusion that it is only one/any man's opinion what the Word means, it is for certain if one worships a god so impotent that he cannot send with understanding, the word plain

enough for the person he sent it to, that it would be understood, it's no wonder many believe everything started with a big bang and everything started from nothing.

God blesses!

[fccool]

Lifehost,

It's great to have discussion going with you. I by no means offended by quotes. My point was that it was a very difficult way of discussing issues if most of your response are just quotes without any underlying explanation.

The post above is well-thought, well-written, and easily understood. It makes sense!

When you paste quotes that relay some out of the context story or meaning that you have to somehow tie in in a flow of discussion, it becomes difficult to digest without underlying explanation.

I have to be honest that half of the time, I have very little understanding as far as the meaning of some of your quoted responses because there's no explanation or context.

Even in the Bible, Christ seldom quoted verbatim. He usually digested, provided context, paraphrased, or relayed the meaning through parables. I have very little trouble understanding what was said. It was not "here's a quote for you, and it's up to you to understand it" type of approach... (most of the time).

[fccool]

fc,

Thank you for the link. I've been exploring the website, listenting to some podcasts. I think this may help me with my negative, anti-church, anti-religion, anti-prophet attitude.

Negative energy helps no one. It's the positive energy directed towards our community that can make a difference.

I'm glad that it helped you. I think that community found the "secret of the early church". The early church had something very special. If you read up in Acts, they did not all agree on everything. They had their dogma clashes, but in the end they did not elevate these above the meaning of Christian Faith and the Community.

There are great books by the author of this blog that I would highly recommend. If you have kindle, here are the links:

http://www.amazon.com/Misunderstood-God-...m=AG56TWVU5XWC2

http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity...m=AG56TWVU5XWC2

Well, the second one is by different author, but it was the inspiration for the first one.

I think it may help you to look at the church and people in different and better light. It certainly helped my worldview and I truly believe that no church is without hope.

[teresaq]

And the only opinion I do have will never be sufficient to take precedence over the Word. ...

[teresaq]

ClubV12, what I got out of the "article" is that it was apparently written by a pastor who felt that everyone looks at him as "perfect" and in harmony with everything God says in the Bible. This pastor thinks that he needs to present himself to people as being the unchristian person that he is (and that includes virtually all of us).

In a way, I can see his point. But in another way, the pastor is supposed to be feeding the sheep. The sheep look to the shepherd as a guide. So...like it or not, I tend to look at pastors' words and actions in a critical manner...are they walking the talk? I think it's a difficult job.

The generational gist of the article is bunk. IMHO.

I see your point rw, and that raises questions for me. Yes, we do want our spiritual leaders to be examples, but from the heart with a real conversion, right?

I'm not sure this person is going about it the right way as I read the article-but I haven't heard him in action so to speak.

[LifeHiscost]

You aren't trying to say anything with the texts you post in response to various subjects?

God has not given me a calling to change any person. That is the work of the Holy Spirit and will be effective for good to the individual who places a value on the Word. When I read a post there are certain Scriptures that come to mind that appear to be pertinent to the subject presented in the post immediately before, not necessarily always following the thread of the topic in the OP.

One thing I consider is that what is posted here goes out to a global audience. I make effort to insure nothing of a selfish partisan nature accompanies the Scripture, although sometimes I'm not as careful as I should be and don't always succeed, accepting as fact even with the best of intentions, a lot of fallible human nature enters into my posts as a whole.

While this answer won't satisfy everyone's desires to reflect conformity to their wishes, it is hoped these two statements below will be considered as sufficient to continue an intelligent conversation, for the glory of God. If not, He has His ways to take care of that, impartially, also.

2. Everyone has a God given right to be whatever he/she wishes to be. Only the enemy of souls wishes to be in control of another for his own selfish purposes.

1. "So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins." Romans 8:1-3 NLT Bold mine LHC

1.5 "“Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘ Execute true justice, Show mercy and compassion Everyone to his brother."Zechariah 7:10 NKJV

God blesses!

[John317]

He said:

Quote:

Many people in the religious world don’t know what to do with me because I continuously disrupt their neat little religious row of spiritual duckies that they’ve come to rely on. I make jokes that are sometimes off color. I use language that is questionable, and I openly do things that are considered sinful by traditional standards. The things they’ve been taught to cling to tightly, I handle loosely. The stuff they were taught to flee from, I partake in, openly, right before their eyes. I do not practice the things they practice. I don’t speak the language they speak. When they refrain, I indulge. When they bow their heads, I lift my face. When they stand, I sit down and when they raise their hands, I yawn and look around. When they are spiritually deep, I am fleshy and shallow. When they study, I goof off and when they worship for long hours, I eat crackers and play hang-man on a pad of paper.

When I speak to Christians today, and they hear the depth and beauty of the message I carry, there is always a point where I see that dreadful look in their eye. That look that says, He’s more spiritual than I am. He must spend hours doing the things I’ve been told to do. He prays more than me - He must fast more than me - He must spend hours studying the Bible - He sins less than I do -He’s way more committed than I am - His faith is deeper than mine - He’s more anointed than me - He does all the things he’s supposed to do and that’s why he’s so close to God.

It seems to me that the writer is merely reacting to what he sees and hears other people saying instead of basing his words and actions on biblical principles of right and wrong. That is what children do, and in some ways, this person reminds me of children I've worked with as a professional counselor.

The last paragraph shows that he is apparently full of self and is not in tune with reality because he thinks he can tell what people are thinking, which is always a big mistake. People often read into other people's thinking what they themselves want to believe they're thinking. This happens all the time on this Forum.

His description of Christians isn't anything I recognize on the basis of my own personal experience with committed Christians. So I really can't judge what he's saying. Perhaps if I experienced things as he has, I would be the same way.

I do sympathize and agree with his desire for honesty and sincerity in "religious" people, but the Christians I've spent my life around and know the best are honest and sincere. I know there are many like the ones he describes, though. I just don't base my view of Christianity and of Christians on those kinds of people.

If his article can help some Christians to be more honest and sincere about their beliefs, and to be more loving and accepting of others, then he's accomplished at least some of what he set out to do. I hope that happens.

[fccool]

I think it's very easy to misinterpret what he says and does. Considering the author to be immature in this case really ignores what maturity is. You view maturity is quite subjective. You define it according to your experience and your view. One may view a person who "goods around" to be "immature", while in reality maturity has little to with that idea. I think that maturity has many different colors and ways of expression.

The author is actually fairly experienced and aged person. He addresses a completely different idea that exists in Christianity, and it's the concocted idea of "holiness" that is not authentic. In fact, some may fake it so well, that you recognize them to be "honest" about everything. It becomes a second nature. It becomes a perpetual "mask of holiness", instead of it being something authentic. Surely I know a lot of honest people, but this issue is fairly easy to test, and you can call me immature, but I test it quite often. You would not believe what people would "amen" to, if it sounds remotely "spiritual". They may be sincere, but honesty also requires for re-examination and not mere blind adherence to certain norms.

So, there's a lot of this concocted sub-culture that's simply exists as "an act" as Teresa puts it. The author is very respectable person within certain Christian circles, and he simply wishes for Christianity to be more authentic, and less contrived. There's a fear exists in Christian culture to essentially be "different".

The author points out that Biblical principles don't prohibit people to act differently within certain Biblical standards. There's plenty of freedom to "talk slang", to dress less flashy and comfortably, and to admit that you don't understand something instead of blindly agreeing with something that sounds spiritual.

PS. I think you may be confusing "honesty" and "sincerity". Honesty in many ways is hard to test or pinpoint. There are very little ways of knowing if I'm being honest with you, even though I may seem sincere right now. In order for me to be honest with you, I have to be first honest with myself. I can't do that without re-examining certain things that I've chosen to lie to myself about. And it may very could be a belief that outward appearance and certain act makes me a better person.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

You aren't trying to say anything with the texts you post in response to various subjects?

...When I read a post there are certain Scriptures that come to mind that appear to be pertinent to the subject presented in the post immediately before, not necessarily always following the thread of the topic in the OP.

And we would like to know what those scriptures mean to you, but if you don't wish to say that is alright. We, perhaps, have gotten to know you a little better in this exchange...perhaps not. :)

[fccool]

I'd have to agree. No matter how we'd like to portray Scripture as Self-Evident... it's not. It's a subject to personal interpretation. By pasting a verse without underlying context you may be confusing other person who does not see the passage in the same light to begin with.

Lifehost certainly explains often, and when he does his posts are much more coherent IMO. I'm simply addressing the times when he (or she) does not

[teresaq]

Yes, fccool, I understand what you are saying.

There is this young lady in my church, for example, that I feel very sorry for. I believe that she is truly seeking the Lord, and that she sincerely wants her mother and brother to come back to the church. She is very "loving" in her speech, her tone, but her words cut to the bone, as well as twisting what was said in order in order to have the upper hand.

She is quite showy in her seeking after God in such things as kneeling in the aisle of the church with her face to the floor...

I do believe the only way her mother and brother are won back to the church, and/or the Lord if they have left Him, is if she is removed far from them, and someone comes along to work with the Lord to undo the damage that she is doing on a daily basis.

It is very sad, really, that she cannot see herself at this point. She prays that the Lord will help others see the "love" she has for them when cutting them down. She doesn't realize that people will see love from her when she no longer needs to reprove them according to her fallen vision.

"take the log out of your own eye..."

[John317]

He addresses a completely different idea that exists in Christianity, and it's the concocted idea of "holiness" that is not authentic. In fact, some may fake it so well, that you recognize them to be "honest" about everything. It becomes a second nature. It becomes a perpetual "mask of holiness", instead of it being something authentic.

What is the Bible view of "holiness"?

What, for instance, did God mean when He repeatedly told the people of Israel, "You MUST be holy, for I am holy"?

The entire sanctuary system was intended to teach us what that God is holy and requires holiness in people among whom He lives.

What does the Bible mean, too, when it says that our sins have seperated us from God?

I would be interested to know what the author believes sin to be.

Hebrews 1: 9 says that Christ has loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. Doesn't God want us to have the same love for righteousness and the same hate for lawlessness? (Not hate for people doing wrong, of course, but hatred for the wrong, or for "lawlessness.")

[fccool]

I don't think you "get" what he and I are saying.

There are certainly certain standards outlined. This is not what's in question. I think that this is the cornerstone of the generational conflict that exists in churches today, which is being addressed by this article.

See, the problem with the past generation of fundamentalism and puritanism is that they created a lot of tradition to "guard the law". So to speak, the law itself... or Biblical standards themselves became "not enough".

It's not enough to dress modestly. You have to dress "best", the less is looked down upon. It's not enough to abstain from offensive and derogatory language... you have to use the "holy speak". It's not enough to pray to God in regular language, you have to make it "special" by using flowery language and assume a certain uncomfortable posture. It's not enough to simply understand the Bible, you have to continually search "deeper meaning". It's not enough to write inspirational songs and music, it has to fit a pre-approved template. It's not enough to study under a pastor, you have to go to college to become one. It's not enough to give, you have to give to a "correct bank account".

That's the issue, and many are missing it because they are fed an idea of "holiness" that has very little to do with Biblical Model of it. Biblical model of holiness allows for a great degree of individualism in terms of retaining personal uniqueness and improving upon certain things that need to be improved. It was never one-size fits all.

When author states that he intentionally "bends the rules" he does not say "I intentionally break the law". He says "I intentionally break the rules about man-made expectations of Holiness".

[fccool]

In related direction, to help you understand what he was talking about, he was telling a story of how he was invited to participate in a major pastoral conference, and he was asked to "bless the food". He got up and said "Dear God, thank you so much for this food! I can't wait to eat and enjoy it.", and sat down and started eating. The entire room did not know what to do, and did not know what just transpired.

They expected this elaborate prayer lased with flowery language and multiple thanks and requests, but he simply demonstrated that it's not necessary. It can be great, short simple, and showing appreciation for simple pleasure of eating. It does not need to be so complex as to make many uncomfortable at even a thought of public "food blessing".

Yet, hearing some people pray, the mere expectation of built up "Holiness Model" requires some elaborate wording that's on the par with poetry. The more complex and more archaic and lased with some preaching, the better. It becomes an unobtainable model that's not "real". It's not authentic. It's contrived. It's an act.

That's the type of things that he is talking about. I hope it clarifies it better for you.

[John317]

It's not enough to dress modestly. You have to dress "best", the less is looked down upon. It's not enough to abstain from offensive and derogatory language... you have to use the "holy speak". It's not enough to pray to God in regular language, you have to make it "special" by using flowery language and assume a certain uncomfortable posture. It's not enough to simply understand the Bible, you have to continually search "deeper meaning". It's not enough to write inspirational songs and music, it has to fit a pre-approved template. It's not enough to study under a pastor, you have to go to college to become one. It's not enough to give, you have to give to a "correct bank account".

That's the issue, and many are missing it because they are fed an idea of "holiness" that has very little to do with Biblical Model of it.

OK, well enough. But I don't do any of those things and the members of my family don't, either. I know there are many Christians who do those things, though, of course.

One of the reasons I didn't want to continue work as a pastor was that I disliked being put in a box and expected to act and talk a certain way. I'm really a "free spirit" and it's only been in the last few years that God has helped me find authentic freedom within His law.

Besides which, I was frankly living in sin and didn't want to be a hypocrite, and I couldn't stop living the way I was. So I understand perfectly what he's saying about that. I notice those things as much as the writer does, but I only God is able to change people in those ways.

[John317]

OK, I am seeing more what's he's all about. I only hope he realizes that just because I might thank the Lord for the food in a little different way than he did, doesn't mean I'm being phoney or whatever. But I do agree with him in some fundamental ways. All that flowery langauge can make a person feel alienated from God instead of close to him. I don't think Jesus was like that at all. He was very authentic and down to earth, no play acting.