This will challenge you...

[teresaq]

When author states that he intentionally "bends the rules" he does not say "I intentionally break the law". He says "I intentionally break the rules about man-made expectations of Holiness".

While no one would equate the author's holiness or wisdom with that of Jesus, Jesus also broke all the man-made rules for holiness of His generation.

I think all too often we confuse the church with Jesus, the body with the Head, people with God.

Some years ago I asked this elderly gentleman why we equated the church with God. For one second you could see this stunned reaction but quick as a bat he came back with, because it is the same. The church is the same as God. I know I had that impression growing up in the church.

I am so thankful that some people shattered that to bits. It utterly shocked me, it was the basest heresy to say what they did.

But they were truly Godly, in deed not in word. While too many others of us are godly in word but not deed. No one would know we sought God or were godly unless we tell them.

So little by little I came to realize that the church is made up of far too many unconverted people in these prosperous times, and that God is altogether different.

Now that He may make me like Jesus, and please forgive me, all, for the so many times that I fail to represent Him, and will fail in the future.

[fccool]

Quote:

OK, well enough. But I don't do any of those things and the members of my family don't, either.

I'd love to say that I don't, but I catch myself constantly. We as humans are imitators, and it sort of becomes a second nature, which is why it's important to be reminded and aware of this phenomenon.

[John317]

I hate being dressed up in a suit. I like jeans. I lived on the road bumming around the country by freight train, living in hobo jungles, and I just have never been able to get that way of life out of my system. I prefer poor, uneducated, unsophisticated people to rich any day. They are more interesting and they will tell you exactly what's on their mind in plain langauge.

[fccool]

OK, I am seeing more what's he's all about. I only hope he realizes that just because I might thank the Lord for the food in a little different way than he did, doesn't mean I'm being phoney or whatever. But I do agree with him in some fundamental ways. All that flowery language can make a person feel alienated from God instead of close to him. I don't think Jesus was like that at all. He was very authentic and down to earth, no play acting.

I don't think the issue is with necessary simplification. There's plenty of room for individualism that church should reflect. Not all of us like the same food, or clothing style, books and etc. So, prayer should reflect individualism, which is a part of the point that he's trying to make. Some people pray longer, because they are thorough, some like it short. Some like to be poetic, and some love for it to be as simple as possible.

The point is that there is room for all of this within certain limits, without hindering the expression of individual's gifts and uniqueness that they bring to the church.

Just looking at your own experience... what a story! I don't think God would have it any other way in terms of your ability to relate to certain issues better.

You may look back and say "I think God would certainly be more pleased if I was a believer from cradle-to-grave", yet this is what I believe that we misunderstand. Our experience enhances us. It gives us better knowledge and understanding. I doubt that Paul would have the impact that he had on the early church if he did not have the experiences that he had. Not to say that God wants you to misbehave, but he can certainly use it to make certain things work better.

I often questioned... why Paul? Probably the last candidate for the job to guide the early church. I mean, there were disciples who studied under Jesus for years, and yet most of the NT is written by the guy who met Him only once, and who hated anyone who had anything to do with Christianity.

It's like saying... "You know the guy who killed our pastor? He's the president of the SDA GC now". It was that severe of a change.

We tend to look at things backwards. The best guy for the job is the one with a squeaky clean record. The one who looks and sounds good. The one that fits our model of holiness. Yet, the model does not reflect the real world, neither does it reflect how God works things out. God allows for enormous room for improvement.

[fccool]

I hate being dressed up in a suit. I like jeans. I lived on the road bumming around the country by freight train, living in hobo jungles, and I just have never been able to get that way of life out of my system. I prefer poor, uneducated, unsophisticated people to rich any day. They are more interesting and they will tell you exactly what's on their mind in plain langauge.

I'm right up there with you, minus the hobo jungles. Although I do have an affinity for less fortunate. Unfortunately the present (and Adventist) side of my family have a different ideas about life, which I have to balance. Wearing jeans to church is pretty offensive to God. And homeless people who beg are just lazy people who use the money to get drunk and make thousands per month tax free.

I once gave a ride to a homeless guy, which is apparently very dangerous and I was to promise to never do it again, with my fingers crossed.

I guess it bothers me greatly that one can pray for unfortunate with such preconceptions and views. That's why I believe there's lots of acting in church... not enough authenticity. Not that there's none, just not enough to help our local church grow.

[John317]

If we look at the counsels of Ellen White on these subjects, she actually agrees.

She said we should avoid "formality," and mere "politeness." She said long prayers are a curse, and that we should have fewer sermons and more time for the people of the church to study their Bibles and give personal testimonies; that is, tell of how God has been leading and working in their lives on a practical level.

She also wrote against the practice of some ministers who put on a fake voice when preaching.

[John317]

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I wear jeans to church. I just mean that I have no interest in dressing up better than other people. I prefer jeans and a polo shirt and sneakers to wearing clothes to impress people. I saw that happening a lot among some of the guys while in the army, and I just never was able to get into that mind set. I do wear a suit to church but it's a second hand suit, which I am all too glad to get off when I get home. Suits have always made me feel hot and uncomfortable somehow, like I'm tied up or something. Maybe because at bottom I don't feel that suits are ME if you know what I mean.

[fccool]

I think you pointed out the other side of this as a desire to "de-regulate" the church. It's unfortunate that this is what this "criticism" is being viewed as, whichever direction it is coming from. It takes time and effort to explain that the ideas that I'm discussing is not a move towards "whatever goes" direction. It's a move to allow a little bit more freedom for uniqueness, individual talents and preferences, along with providing outlets in the church to sublimate these into something more pragmatic and functional.

Whenever I moved from Baptist to SDA church, I've felt it as a "step down" from the general idea of what the church is, or should be. I'm only speaking from personal experience on the local level, which may not reflect the SDA church in its entirety. I'm sure that there are plenty of functional and growing churches, and I've been to many.

The problem that I've noticed is the idea of the church in itself, which revolves around "sermon". Essentially everything that we do on Saturday morning exists as a build up to that event. Well, perhaps it's not much different than any church you go to on Sunday. I do think that the difference is that there are churches that allow room for that "church expectation", yet provide plentiful informal opportunities for the members to just come together in similar setting and share and discuss and plan and do in a way that does not revolve around "the sermon".

IMO such set-up sort of kills the church. It turns the congregation into the bench-warmers with poor pastor tries to desperately to motivate them to do something more. At times I really feel for our pastor, but in a way it's a hole he dug for himself by simply assuming all of the responsibility that should be shared by the members.

So, the Sabbath experience tends to revolve around sitting and listening, instead of enjoying the gifts of the congregation. Sure, there's a Sabbath school, but it's likewise tends to be very scripted and rigid experience that tries to cram a week of valuable discussion and participation in a period of 45 mins.

I there's tendency to point out "faults" and problems, yet I've yet to find any viable solution other than having this type of order drive itself into inevitable spiritual corner with both the members and the leadership realizing the need for change.

[LifeHiscost]

I'd have to agree. No matter how we'd like to portray Scripture as Self-Evident... it's not. It's a subject to personal interpretation. By pasting a verse without underlying context you may be confusing other person who does not see the passage in the same light to begin with.

Lifehost certainly explains often, and when he does his posts are much more coherent IMO. I'm simply addressing the times when he (or she) does not

The bold above I definitely agree as spoken in the Word.

"[Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy(declared will and purpose of God) of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving)."2 Peter 1:20 AMP

OTOH that also makes the underlined false as the Holy Spirit doesn't teach many different conclusions to the same Word. Else the below would never be able to come to pass.

"Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth. Instead, we will speak the truth in love, growing in every way more and more like Christ, who is the head of his body, the church." Eph 4:11-15

NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Everyone has their own way of relating to the established church.

If you have a better way, live it. If it is God's chosen pathway it will flourish. If not it will end up as many others have, not satisfying.

The main thrust of the body of believers is meant to be the spreading of the gospel. If that is what you are doing, you are helping to change things in your area of influence. To expect others to accept your idea of what the church should be like, without giving evidence in your own life of the fulfillment of God's power through His Holy Spirit, is an exercise in futility and a putting of the cart before the horse.

God blesses!

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: fccool

I'd have to agree. No matter how we'd like to portray Scripture as Self-Evident... it's not....

The bold above I definitely agree as spoken in the Word.

"[Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy(declared will and purpose of God) of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving)."2 Peter 1:20 AMP

OTOH that also makes the underlined false as the Holy Spirit doesn't teach many different conclusions to the same Word. Else the below would never be able to come to pass...

Actually I think you sort of just disproved your point, by saying "OTOH that also..." That alternative offers different conclusions to the same Word.

But more importantly the very text you quoted is self-evident of different conclusions, both of which have validity. This is evident by the multitude of translations that divide this word two ways. It is often translated as from the readers perspective that one reading it should not reach their own conclusion apart from the support of others. But taken in the context of the very next verse it also can mean that the prophecy as given by the prophet was not from his own personal opinion, but directed from the Holy Spirit. Both are valid and useful.

[fccool]

Quote:

The main thrust of the body of believers is meant to be the spreading of the gospel. If that is what you are doing, you are helping to change things in your area of influence. To expect others to accept your idea of what the church should be like, without giving evidence in your own life of the fulfillment of God's power through His Holy Spirit, is an exercise in futility and a putting of the cart before the horse.

I do have a couple question/issues.

1) Is the the main thrust of the body of believers to spread the Gospel? I think not! And that becomes the problem with everything that we do in the church as we improperly emphasize priorities.

It sort of becomes. "Are you spreading the Gospel? Well, why not? It's the main thing you must do! Why aren't you spreading the Gospel? "

Our primary objective is TO LOVE PEOPLE. That's the essence of the Gospel. If we properly relay and express love, then we don't really need anything else. Everything else will radiate from perspective of love. We have a lot of people who "spread the Gospel" yet have no love. All they care about is to do their holy duty. We tell then that's their duty to God, and they do it.

2) The "evidence in your own life of the fulfillment of God's power through His Holy Spirit" is love towards people and God. It should be the starting point.

Ironically, we make out the dogma to be the starting point, and the "fulfillment of Holy Spirit" we tend to interpret on the par with "doctrinal agreement". That's quite a twist, and ironically, it is actually putting the cart before the horse.

Our driving mechanism for conversion is playing on fear. It's unfortunate, but true. We don't begin with the message of how awesome, grand, majestic, yet humble, kind and relatable God is. Our message is of judgment. God is judging you. You better shape up! The judgment day is coming! The good news is that there's still time for you to change for the better and please God. It's fear based. It's backwards. It creates a community of stiffs who are afraid to do anything "undoctrinal" and "nontraditional", and who have to constantly question their relationship with God.

Some people think that it's more holy to "speak through the Word". I apologize if it offends you, but you seldom find Jesus doing that. He gets below the people. Speaks their language. Interprets and relays the meaning. When we do find him throw the quotes back, he mostly does that to Pharisees who constantly challenge his "doctrinal correctness". They are the ones who constantly run to the law and say "But, the Bible says that.... [insert quote here]"

And His reply is ... you don't love, therefore you don't get it. You would not even need those writings if you loved properly. That's what it's all about!

[LifeHiscost]

. We have a lot of people who "spread the Gospel" yet have no love. All they care about is to do their holy duty. We tell then that's their duty to God, and they do it.

I'm just wondering what "self-sacrificing" people with no love you hang out with. There is no doubt Love should be the motivating force, however in the church I attend, on a percentage basis, the ones who are most heavily involved in working for the benefit of others, are very loving people.

"But someone will say, “You have faith(Love), and I have works.” Show me your faith(Love) without your works, and I will show you my faith(Love) by my works."James 2:18 NKJV

parenthetical mine LHC

OTOH those still babes in the faith have this promise to which they can cling while growing in grace.

"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?"Micah 6:8 NKJV

And if you can accomplish that without the power and presence of the Holy Spirit, then you live in a land I've never been in nor ever expect to be in.

God blesses!

[teresaq]

I have known some very loving, "self-sacrificing" people, as you call them, who have been quite painful to be around. I don't believe they knew how painful it was to be around them. Not because their purity of heart and life-they had none except in their own minds- showed others as lacking in that area, but because they put one arm around a person, but beat them up with the other, so-to-speak.

While I was horrified how some treated one such couple, I did understand the reason. The couple was just confused.

It is easier to defend one's picture of what is ok, than it is to hear...

On the other hand we can be quite clumsy in our attempts to convey what we see as problems.

I think, basically, if we are not drawing crowds as people did, we are probably on the wrong track. If people avoid being around us, we probably do not have love.

As fccool, I believe it was, said, what are the reasons that we are "self-sacrificing" laboring for others.

I believe Paul was expressing that very same thought,

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

What a horrible thought, to do all those things and still come up to that day being told,

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[John317]

I have known some very loving, "self-sacrificing" people, as you call them, who have been quite painful to be around. I don't believe they knew how painful it was to be around them. Not because their purity of heart and life-they had none except in their own minds- showed others as lacking in that area, but because they put one arm around a person, but beat them up with the other, so-to-speak

Granted, there are some people like the ones you refer to here, but are they exceptions to the rule, or have you described most of the self-sacrificing Christians you've known?

[John317]

You have some good ideas there. Have you ever presented these to your pastor or to the elders in your local church? Ellen White completely agreed with you about not always having sermons.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

What a horrible thought, to do all those things and still come up to that day being told,

"Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted."Titus 1:14 NLT

God blesses!

[fccool]

If you read in Titus 1, he's talking about Jewish converts who use Christianity for personal gain...

Quote:

For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

So, it's actually talks about people who do things backwards. The ones who emphasize law left and right, and forget that you don't need it if you do things in love. True love needs no law. The law was made for those without it.

If I love my wife, she does not have to remind me every morning "Remember, don't cheat on me. Make sure to remember my birthday and anniversary. Remember to spend some time with me. Don't steal the stuff that I left for myself in the fridge." It's silly! If she has to remind me that every day, then she should seriously doubt that I love her.

In this passage, it's not that these people "had no works". They had plenty, but these works as "self-sacrificing" as these may have seen were for self-gain, for self-aggravation, and served as a bricks for the facade of holiness that they were constructing. They kept the law. They were Jews after all. They even kept the laws that were made void. Yet, they still were "lawless" because they were LOVELESS.

[teresaq]

In discussing issues like these the tendency can be to give the impression that one has arrived so-to-speak. Believe me I have not arrived. But as Paul said, hopefully we are all, Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Quote:

What a horrible thought, to do all those things and still come up to that day being told,

"Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted."Titus 1:14 NLT

God blesses!

[teresaq]

Herb Montgomery is doing a series of e-sights which is a companion to the thoughts referred to in this topic. I will post them in "soul care" for all to read and comment on, if any should so desire.

[LifeHiscost]

If you read in Titus 1, he's talking about Jewish converts who use Christianity for personal gain...

At the time it was spoken, it was spoken to some who had particular problems. The principle is timeless and can apply to any who are self serving in there use of what God has given for His glory. It can particularly apply to any who feel it their responsibility to insure that others than themselves adhere to their own moral sensibilities.

Speak the Word and then let the Holy Spirit convict the heart that needs it. All have a right to accept or reject it according to the freedom God has allowed in the human family.

"Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.2 Timothy 4:2 NLT

God blesses!

[teresaq]

My question regarding your last post below is, were you responding to what I wrote-first post-or to what you believe I think? If it was the post itself, what issue did you have with it? If it is a picture you have developed of what I think, perhaps you could share that. Or perhaps you believe that you are rightly dividing the scriptures and that I am not? Which would prove fccool's point, in my opinion anyway.

I have known some very loving, "self-sacrificing" people, as you call them, who have been quite painful to be around. I don't believe they knew how painful it was to be around them. Not because their purity of heart and life-they had none except in their own minds- showed others as lacking in that area, but because they put one arm around a person, but beat them up with the other, so-to-speak.

While I was horrified how some treated one such couple, I did understand the reason. The couple was just confused.

It is easier to defend one's picture of what is ok, than it is to hear...

On the other hand we can be quite clumsy in our attempts to convey what we see as problems.

I think, basically, if we are not drawing crowds as people did, we are probably on the wrong track. If people avoid being around us, we probably do not have love.

As fccool, I believe it was, said, what are the reasons that we are "self-sacrificing" laboring for others.

I believe Paul was expressing that very same thought,

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

What a horrible thought, to do all those things and still come up to that day being told,

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.