12tribes Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 The FACT is that Jesus Christ did not take our sinful nature at His birth. It was not until the Cross that Jesus Christ took upon Himself our sins. Yes whether we want to believe it or not Jesus Christ is our Savior! Hebrews 2:16 (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Romans 5:10 (10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. We are not only saved by the death of Christ but by His life He lived a perfect life for us. The law demands a perfect life something that we do not have cause we have all sinned but Christ lived a perfect life in our nature so His life is given to us so that we are also "saved by His life". If we are only saved by His death then he could have died as a child. 1 Peter 2:21-23 (21) For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: (22) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: (23) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: How can Christ be our example if He did not have our nature until the cross? Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
miz3 Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 The FACT is that Jesus Christ did not take our sinful nature at His birth. It was not until the Cross that Jesus Christ took upon Himself our sins. Yes whether we want to believe it or not Jesus Christ is our Savior! Hebrews 2:16 (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Romans 5:10 (10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. We are not only saved by the death of Christ but by His life He lived a perfect life for us. The law demands a perfect life something that we do not have cause we have all sinned but Christ lived a perfect life in our nature so His life is given to us so that we are also "saved by His life". If we are only saved by His death then he could have died as a child. 1 Peter 2:21-23 (21) For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: (22) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: (23) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: How can Christ be our example if He did not have our nature until the cross? "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. 20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[c] because he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[d]—which means, “God with us.” 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." Matthew 1:18-24. The Holy Spirit conceived in Mary! Nether Mary's egg nor Joseph's sperm were involved! The Holy Spirit does not "conceive" sinfulness! There is nothing in this passage that states that Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature"! If Jesus had a "sinful nature" then He would have been the enemy of God, and we all know Jesus Christ was NOT THE ENEMY OF GOD EVER, until God made Christ so on the Cross! The ONLY TIME sin was ever on Jesus Christ was on the Cross! Quote
BobRyan Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 It is true that on the cross he took upon him the guilt of our sins - but at no time did he adopt our rebellion against God. not even on the cross did Christ choose to rebel against the direction set for him by His Father. The same is true in Gethsemane His choice was to go with God's plan - to His very last breath. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
miz3 Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 It is true that on the cross he took upon him the guilt of our sins - but at no time did he adopt our rebellion against God. not even on the cross did Christ choose to rebel against the direction set for him by His Father. The same is true in Gethsemane His choice was to go with God's plan - to His very last breath. in Christ, Bob No one is disputing this! What is at dispute is did Jesus Christ ever have "sinful nature" like you and me! The answer is a clear NO! NO! NO! JESUS CHRIST ALWAYS HAD A SINLESS NATURE! (LIKE ADAM BEFORE THE FALL!) Quote
BobRyan Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 Well - err umm.. I never said Jesus had a sinful nature. I maintain that he never experience moral corruption - and that even on the cross his nature was not "inclined" to do evil. In fact IF Christ had taken upon him the "inclination to evil" not just of one person - but of all people so that at the cross he had billions times more 'inclination to evil' than any one person who ever lived, he would have chosen to do evil instead of holding fast to His Father's command to endure the cross, despise the shame and taken upon him the guilt and suffering for all sins for all time. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Lysimachus Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Do you believe miz3 that Jesus had the temptation to sin? Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
miz3 Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Well - err umm.. I never said Jesus had a sinful nature. I maintain that he never experience moral corruption - and that even on the cross his nature was not "inclined" to do evil. In fact IF Christ had taken upon him the "inclination to evil" not just of one person - but of all people so that at the cross he had billions times more 'inclination to evil' than any one person who ever lived, he would have chosen to do evil instead of holding fast to His Father's command to endure the cross, despise the shame and taken upon him the guilt and suffering for all sins for all time. in Christ, Bob I guess I am wasting my breath! I don't think then we are in disagreement unless I am missing something! Your last post (above) I agree with and that is what I have been saying and I guess you have been saying this all along as well. So much for cross talk! Quote
BobRyan Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 Jesus was tempted to sin as were Adam and Lucifer and as were both the fallen angels and the unfallen angels. They could fall - and Christ could have chosen to sin. He came to live in the weakness of our fallen human nature not the strength of Adam's human nature prefall. But Jesus was tempted in the same sinless pure moral nature as Adam in Eden - before the fall. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
miz3 Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Do you believe miz3 that Jesus had the temptation to sin? NO! AND NO! I believe there were attempts to "tempt" Christ! However, not even for "millimillimilli to infinity" second (meaning zilch) did Christ ever respond in any way shape or form to that attempt to tempt Him! His ONLY RESPONSE WAS NATURALLY TO REJECT THE ATTEMPT TO TEMPT HIM BY DOING ONLY GOD'S WILL! Thus it was IMPOSSIBLE FOR CHRIST TO SIN! Quote
BobRyan Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 I guess I am wasting my breath! I don't think then we are in disagreement unless I am missing something! Your last post (above) I agree with and that is what I have been saying and I guess you have been saying this all along as well. So much for cross talk! Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
miz3 Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 I guess I am wasting my breath! I don't think then we are in disagreement unless I am missing something! Your last post (above) I agree with and that is what I have been saying and I guess you have been saying this all along as well. So much for cross talk! I agree - I think this was a case of cross talk. Just because we differ on a lot of topics - does not mean we differ on every topic. in Christ, Bob I am glad to agree with you on this one! Quote
12tribes Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. 20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[c] because he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[d]—which means, “God with us.” 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." Matthew 1:18-24. The Holy Spirit conceived in Mary! Nether Mary's egg nor Joseph's sperm were involved! The Holy Spirit does not "conceive" sinfulness! There is nothing in this passage that states that Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature"! If Jesus had a "sinful nature" then He would have been the enemy of God, and we all know Jesus Christ was NOT THE ENEMY OF GOD EVER, until God made Christ so on the Cross! The ONLY TIME sin was ever on Jesus Christ was on the Cross! Matthew 4:2 (2) And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. Mark 4:38 (38) And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? Matthew 26:38-39 (38) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. (39) And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Why in each of these incidents did Jesus become wary tired? Because that was His humanity coming through. Also have you read the laws of redemption in the old testament? Only someone who was a kin could redeem, If Jesus was not our kin He could not redeem us. Leviticus 25:25 (25) If thy brother be waxen poor, and hath sold away some of his possession, and if any of his kin come to redeem it, then shall he redeem that which his brother sold. Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
BobRyan Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 Jesus was God incarnate - the son of Mary... He called himself "the Son of Man" taking upon himself our fallen human nature as it was at the time of Mary -- but He did not have a corrupt moral nature - no inclination to do evil - thus no sinful nature. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
12tribes Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Hebrews 4:15 (15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. If Jesus only took our nature at the cross then He was not tempted in all points as we are, Jesus had the Holy Spirit from birth as did John the baptist They were was born again before birth. Luke 1:15 (15) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
miz3 Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. 20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[c] because he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[d]—which means, “God with us.” 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." Matthew 1:18-24. The Holy Spirit conceived in Mary! Nether Mary's egg nor Joseph's sperm were involved! The Holy Spirit does not "conceive" sinfulness! There is nothing in this passage that states that Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature"! If Jesus had a "sinful nature" then He would have been the enemy of God, and we all know Jesus Christ was NOT THE ENEMY OF GOD EVER, until God made Christ so on the Cross! The ONLY TIME sin was ever on Jesus Christ was on the Cross! Matthew 4:2 (2) And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. Mark 4:38 (38) And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? Matthew 26:38-39 (38) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. (39) And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Why in each of these incidents did Jesus become wary tired? Because that was His humanity coming through. Also have you read the laws of redemption in the old testament? Only someone who was a kin could redeem, If Jesus was not our kin He could not redeem us. Leviticus 25:25 (25) If thy brother be waxen poor, and hath sold away some of his possession, and if any of his kin come to redeem it, then shall he redeem that which his brother sold. No one is saying that Jesus Christ was NOT HUMAN! Getting "tired", getting "hungry", being "sorrowful", is NOT SINFUL! The "sinful nature" makes us not just hungry but gluttons, not just sorrowful but depressed, not just tired, but cranky, etc. Jesus did not have a "sinful nature"! Thus, when Christ was tired He slept and never got cranky! When Christ was hungry He never was a glutton. When Christ was sorrowful He never was depressed! Yes Jesus Christ was fully human! However, Christ's humanity never, ever had anything sinful connected in any way shape or form to Himself. Christ never desired sin. You and I desire sin because of our "sinful nature". Our sinful nature pollutes everything about us! THE SINFUL NATURE POLLUTES ALL OUR DESIRES, AND MAKES OUR DESIRES FULL OF SIN! Jesus Christ's "sinless nature" never at anytime polluted His desires or anything else about Christ! Quote
miz3 Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Hebrews 4:15(15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. If Jesus only took our nature at the cross then He was not tempted in all points as we are, Jesus had the Holy Spirit from birth as did John the baptist They were was born again before birth. Luke 1:15 (15) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. There is a huge difference between John the Baptist conception and the conception of Jesus Christ! John the Baptist had genetic material from both his human father and his human mother! The Holy Spirit dwelt within him in the same way the Holy Spirit can dwell within all humans. Jesus Christ had no human genetic material from his father (Joseph) and no human genetic material from his mother (Mary). Jesus Christ was conceived entirely by the Holy Spirit. It was a miracle and it was unique! See Matthew chapter one! Jesus Christ is also unique in that unlike John the Baptist or any other human, Jesus Christ was also simultaneously fully God and fully human! Quote
12tribes Posted August 14, 2011 Posted August 14, 2011 No one is saying that Jesus Christ was NOT HUMAN! Getting "tired", getting "hungry", being "sorrowful", is NOT SINFUL! The "sinful nature" makes us not just hungry but gluttons, not just sorrowful but depressed, not just tired, but cranky, etc. Jesus did not have a "sinful nature"! Thus, when Christ was tired He slept and never got cranky! When Christ was hungry He never was a glutton. When Christ was sorrowful He never was depressed! Yes Jesus Christ was fully human! However, Christ's humanity never, ever had anything sinful connected in any way shape or form to Himself. Christ never desired sin. You and I desire sin because of our "sinful nature". Our sinful nature pollutes everything about us! THE SINFUL NATURE POLLUTES ALL OUR DESIRES, AND MAKES OUR DESIRES FULL OF SIN! Jesus Christ's "sinless nature" never at anytime polluted His desires or anything else about Christ! I agree that sinful nature has no desire to keep God's law Romans 8 makes that clear. Romans 8:7 (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. That is why we need to be born again, with new desires and principles, partakers of the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:3-4 (3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: (4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Jesus could not have taken our nature without the Holy Spirit. Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
skyblue888 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 It is not Scriptural to teach that the flesh of Jesus was sinless. "He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature." This is what the Testimonies tell us in harmony with Rom.1:3 which says that Jesus in his human nature was a descendant of David according to the flesh. David had sinful flesh, not sinless flesh. What we are to teach is that Jesus lived a sinless life in sinful flesh. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 It is not Scriptural to teach that the flesh of Jesus was sinless. "He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature." This is what the Testimonies tell us in harmony with Rom.1:3 which says that Jesus in his human nature was a descendant of David according to the flesh. David has sinful flesh, not sinless flesh. What we are to teach is that Jesus lived a sinless life in sinful flesh. sky Define your terms! 1. Define "sinful flesh"! 2. Define "sinful nature! 3. Define "human nature"! Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 In His human nature were all the tendencies of sinful flesh, not his but yours and mine, and yet his human mind never yielded to any of them. He lived a sinless life in sinful flesh. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted August 15, 2011 Moderators Posted August 15, 2011 I agree with you, sky. When John the Beloved writes in 1 John 4: 3 and 2 John 7 of Jesus' coming in the flesh, he's talking about His coming in the same flesh, or inherited human nature, that all other people have. Jesus is still an actual descendent of Adam, Abraham and David. God did not create a special human nature for Christ so that He could resist and overcome temptations. He had no advantages that we don't have. He overcame only by the power of the Holy Spirit and the angels, not because His human nature was different from us. Satan would triumph if he could point to the fact that Christ obeyed God's commandments because of a unique human nature. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 I agree with you, sky. When John the Beloved writes in 1 John 4: 3 and 2 John 7 of Jesus' coming in the flesh, he's talking about His coming in the same flesh, or inherited human nature, that all other people have. Jesus is still an actual descendent of Adam, Abraham and David. God did not create a special human nature for Christ so that He could resist and overcome temptations. He had no advantages that we don't have. He overcame only by the power of the Holy Spirit and the angels, not because His human nature was different from us. Satan would triumph if he could point to the fact that Christ obeyed God's commandments because of a unique human nature. Define "human nature" John317. Quote
miz3 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 In His human nature were all the tendencies of sinful flesh, not his but yours and mine, and yet his human mind never yielded to any of them. He lived a sinless life in sinful flesh. sky That is extremely vague! You have not defined exactly what you mean. Define the terms: 1. Human nature. 2. Sinful nature. 3. Sinful flesh. Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 I agree with you, sky. When John the Beloved writes in 1 John 4: 3 and 2 John 7 of Jesus' coming in the flesh, he's talking about His coming in the same flesh, or inherited human nature, that all other people have. Jesus is still an actual descendent of Adam, Abraham and David. God did not create a special human nature for Christ so that He could resist and overcome temptations. He had no advantages that we don't have. He overcame only by the power of the Holy Spirit and the angels, not because His human nature was different from ours. Satan would triumph if he could point to the fact that Christ obeyed God's commandments because of a unique human nature. Amen. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 The truth does not need many words or the speculations of so-called theologians. "Theology as it is studied and taught is but a record of human speculations serving only to darken the understanding." M.H.442. On his human side, Jesus was a descendant of David according to the flesh and that is sinful flesh. Unless we become as little children and accept this simple truth, God will not be able to keep is from fatal errors. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
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