OMEGA of Apostasy - what do you think it is?

[skyblue888]

The truth does not have two sides to it let alone four!!!

If you have A.T. Jones' 1893 Lectures, I suggest all read lecture number 1.

sky

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

I don't know about sky but that is not my assumption at all. I understand the differences.

But I disagree that John the Beloved is only talking about the error of some who believed that Christ didn't come in a human form.

What the warning of John the Beloved shows is that we should be aware that Satan is especially attacking the Bible teaching about Christ's human nature. We know that it will be the subject of great deception. And indeed it has been. Most Christians today believe that in order to help Jesus be able to defeat Satan, Christ's mother was born without sin. Why? In order to keep Jesus "pure." So Jesus was "exempted."

But there are different ways to make Christ exempt. Yet, if true, they all lead to the same result: Satan's triumph.

We have to accept the fact that Christ was different from us John317.

There is not one doctrine out there that can escape that conclusion.

Even the idea that Christ was born with a sinful human nature.

Even when that idea is presented, then the proponents of that idea still have to say that Christ's "mind" was different to ours.

No matter what way you cut it Jesus was different to us.

AMEN TWILIGHT!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

3) and making a Christ who is not our true example, because He did not overcome as we are called to overcome.

There is a flipside to this:

Making a Christ that is altogether too much like us, because we do not understand how we are supposed to overcome.

And we assume we have to overcome in a fallen state, rather than a born again state.

When we do that, we have to place Christ in a fallen state, but the simple fact of the matter is, that we have just placed ourselves on ground that is not biblical.

We have misunderstood our condition as born again believers and cannot enter fully into the truth on victory over sin.

We are not dead and born again, we are half dead and half alive Christians.

And because we mistakenly think this is correct, we try to make Jesus the same, whilst thinking we are describing the born again experience.

When in fact we are mistakenly presenting a subtle counterfeit.

POWERFUL TRUTH TWILIGHT!

[skyblue888]

"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand." D.A.116.

This shows that he was tempted, as a man, like as we are, in all points. He could not have been tempted in all points like as we are unless he had sinful flesh like ours.

sky

[skyblue888]

And how are we to overcome as He did?

"In Christ dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. This is why, although He was tempted in all points like as we are, He stood before the world, from His first entrance into it, untainted by corruption, though surrounded by it. Are we not also to become partakers of that fullness, and is it not thus and thus only that we can overcome as He overcame?" E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7, p.907; MS 16,1890.

This is, of course, speaking of Jesus in His sinful, fallen human nature for though in Him both human and divine natures were blended, He never used His divinity for it was kept back the whole time. So when it is said that in him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, it is talking about his faith as a man. "He supplicated the throne of God til his humanity was charged with a heavenly current that should connect humanity with divinity." D.A.363.

And so it may be with us for "His experience is to be ours." D.A.363.

sky

[ClubV12]

Twilight says,

"If we are confused as to Christ's nature and how He overcame, then we will never overcome ourselves."

I don't think I agree with that. If you believe that you CAN, through Christ, live a perfect life, why is it relevant to understand the exact nature of the blended divinity/humanity?

Obviously this is some kind of "big deal" I heard two guys arguing (maybe thats a discussion,,,) at church the other day on this subject. I went somewhere else, didn't want to hear it.

[Twilight II]

The truth does not have two sides to it let alone four!!!

If you have A.T. Jones' 1893 Lectures, I suggest all read lecture number 1.

sky

Indeed, only one of the 4 can be true.

Either that or another option is true, that hasn't been thought of here.

But until one understands all 4 arguments, they cannot declare any single one to be "the truth"...

[Twilight II]

Twilight says,

"If we are confused as to Christ's nature and how He overcame, then we will never overcome ourselves."

I don't think I agree with that. If you believe that you CAN, through Christ, live a perfect life, why is it relevant to understand the exact nature of the blended divinity/humanity?

Obviously this is some kind of "big deal" I heard two guys arguing (maybe thats a discussion,,,) at church the other day on this subject. I went somewhere else, didn't want to hear it.

If you don't want to hear it, how could you ever know if it is important or not? :-)

[ClubV12]

Oh I've been hearing about it a LOT on this forum!

I just don't understand why everyone thinks it so significant, especially compared to so many things that are significant. Just wonderin' what the big deal is...

[Twilight II]

3) and making a Christ who is not our true example, because He did not overcome as we are called to overcome.

[Twilight II]

"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand." D.A.116.

This shows that he was tempted, as a man, like as we are, in all points. He could not have been tempted in all points like as we are unless he had sinful flesh like ours.

sky

There is a difference between the way a Born Again believer is tempted and an unconverted believer is tempted.

Jesus was not unconverted, so the description in James does not apply to Him as it did to those that were not overcomers but rather subject to the lusts and desires in their flesh.

Christ was tempted in His mind, from Satan, externally.

Not internally.

Internally His flesh was dead, there were no sinful propensities or desires clamouring in them.

It would have been impossible.

The only reason there is any clamoring of the flesh is because the Spirit of God has not put it to death.

And the Spirit of God does not put the flesh to death in someone who does not believe He can.

The Spirit of God did not need to put Christ's flesh to death, because it was never alive (sins and desires).

The lusts and desires of Adam and Eve could only be manifested after the Spirit of God had been withdrawn from them.

Before that, they had been perfectly normal signals from the body to indicate need.

But once the Spirit left because of their sin, they became subject to a perveted flesh that was free to usurp the minds of Adam and Eve and dominate them with its singular desire to be fed...

Christ never had a moment where the Spirit was not leading Him.

He never had a moment where the flesh was not subject to the Spirit.

Not once.

So in that simple truth is the clear answer.

Christ did not have "temptation within" His flesh, because His "flesh" never had a chance to come to life...

Mark

[miz3]

3) and making a Christ who is not our true example, because He did not overcome as we are called to overcome.

[Twilight II]

And how are we to overcome as He did?

"In Christ dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. This is why, although He was tempted in all points like as we are, He stood before the world, from His first entrance into it, untainted by corruption, though surrounded by it. Are we not also to become partakers of that fullness, and is it not thus and thus only that we can overcome as He overcame?" E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7, p.907; MS 16,1890.

This is, of course, speaking of Jesus in His sinful, fallen human nature for though in Him both human and divine natures were blended, He never used His divinity for it was kept back the whole time. So when it is said that in him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, it is talking about his faith as a man. "He supplicated the throne of God til his humanity was charged with a heavenly current that should connect humanity with divinity." D.A.363.

And so it may be with us for "His experience is to be ours." D.A.363.

sky

This is describing the "born again" state that each believer must enter into.

Christ was born into that experience, so whilst never having a need to be "born again", His experience can be ours.

But to claim Christ had "sin in Him", is to claim Christ had the experience of a fallen man.

That is incorrect.

Christ came to give us a way to come up to His level.

He did not have to stoop down morally in any way whatsoever, to show us that level.

Those that argue He had a sinful nature are claiming He stooped down in His moral nature.

[ClubV12]

Now there it is AGAIN!

The message here is that if we don't understand the blending of humanity/divinity in Christ it is impossible to overcome, thus, we will be lost!

OK, it's an "important" issue, but if I can't understand (WHY it's so important) what chance does a child have? If the church can't even agree on this, and clealy they can't, what chance does anybody have?

I believe one CAN live a perfect life, it IS possible. No matter how perfect it will never be enough, thats why I believe in righteouness by faith. But that doesn't stop me from believing for a second that overcoming all known sin is possible. Regardless of what aspect, 1 through 4, I accept for Christs humanity/divinity.

[Twilight II]

And it is these points that quite simply refute the idea that the Omega of apostasy is believing that Christ has a sinful moral nature in a fallen human body.

[Twilight II]

Now there it is AGAIN!

The message here is that if we don't understand the blending of humanity/divinity in Christ it is impossible to overcome, thus, we will be lost!

OK, it's an "important" issue, but if I can't understand (WHY it's so important) what chance does a child have? If the church can't even agree on this, and clealy they can't, what chance does anybody have?

I believe one CAN live a perfect life, it IS possible. No matter how perfect it will never be enough, thats why I believe in righteouness by faith. But that doesn't stop me from believing for a second that overcoming all known sin is possible. Regardless of what aspect, 1 through 4, I accept for Christs humanity/divinity.

God does not condemn us for what we do not know.

That is not my argument.

But God is waiting for a people that will overcome.

Where are they CV?

Why is it that Adventists talk and talk and talk about overcoming, yet clearly they are not?

Is it because they have possibly misunderstood some simple gospel truths that place them in an experience where they can never receive victory, because the enemy in the camp is never driven out?

That they believe the enemy has to be tolerated rather than defeated?

If that is the case, then yes, it is very important for us to understand this...

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Mrs. White stated that not one will perish while they trust in the merits of Christ for their acceptance with God for as we hang our helpless souls upon the merits of Christ alone, God fortifies us. How? The angels of God are around us as a wall of fire and we are clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness which goes before us and the glory of God is our rearward.

And the Holy Spirit teaches us all things that pertain to faith and godliness. To be sure the Holy Spirit does not teach us that Jesus inherited sinless flesh for that would make of none effect the plan of redemption.

"With the terrible weight of the sins of the whole world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon the love of display which leads to presumption." D.A.116,117.

"But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was srrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation." D.A.117.

This says all we need to know about the humanity of Christ as stated in Rom.1:3; Heb.2:14 and Heb.4:15.

He lived a sinless life in sinful flesh.

sky

[Twilight II]

Oh I've been hearing about it a LOT on this forum!

I just don't understand why everyone thinks it so significant, especially compared to so many things that are significant. Just wonderin' what the big deal is...

If the bible reveals how to overcome and central to that is understanding how Christ overcame, then understanding how Christ overcame is paramount.

To understand how He overcame, we have to understand His nature, as much as is revealed for us.

Because we partake of THAT nature.

And we can only overcome if we truly partake of THAT nature.

If we try to partake of something that isn't His nature, we will never overcome.

Mark :-)

[Twilight II]

"With the terrible weight of the sins of the whole world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon the love of display which leads to presumption." D.A.116,117.

"But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was srrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation." D.A.117.

sky

Option 4, which I posted above, does not disagree with this statement in any way shape or form Sky...

[John317]

We have to accept the fact that Christ was different from us John317.

Of course Christ was different from us. I did not say he was not different from us in any way. First of all, Christ was God. That makes Him different from you and me. He was both divine and human. I, on the other hand, am altogether human.

So we're not claiming Christ was not different from us.

[miz3]

Now there it is AGAIN!

The message here is that if we don't understand the blending of humanity/divinity in Christ it is impossible to overcome, thus, we will be lost!

OK, it's an "important" issue, but if I can't understand (WHY it's so important) what chance does a child have? If the church can't even agree on this, and clealy they can't, what chance does anybody have?

I believe one CAN live a perfect life, it IS possible. No matter how perfect it will never be enough, thats why I believe in righteouness by faith. But that doesn't stop me from believing for a second that overcoming all known sin is possible. Regardless of what aspect, 1 through 4, I accept for Christs humanity/divinity.

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Matthew 19:26.

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

Mark 10:27.

"For nothing is impossible with God.”

Luke 1:37.

"Jesus replied, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”

Luke 18:27.

DO YOU BELIEVE THIS?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

We have to accept the fact that Christ was different from us John317.

Of course Christ was different from us. I did not say he was not different from us in any way. First of all, Christ was God. That makes Him different from you and me. He was both divine and human. I, on the other hand, am altogether human.

So we're not claiming Christ was not different from us.

But you will only allow for Christ to be different when it conforms to the idea that Christ had a fallen sinful nature...

When the view is presented that Christ had a fallen human body, but an unfallen moral nature including a distinct absence of propensities to sin, lusts and desires of the flesh, then the argument often presented is:

"Christ could not have overcome that way, because He would have been different to us."

But this is not logical.

On the one hand Christ has to be different.

On the other, He is not allowed to be different.

I believe it is called having your cake and eating it? :-)

[skyblue888]

The 1915 edition of Bible Readings for The Home reads thus:

"In His humanity Christ partook of our sinful, fallen nature. If not, then He was not 'made like unto His brethren,' was not 'in all points tempted like as we are,' did not overcome as we have to overcome, and is not, therefore, the complete and perfect Saviour man needs and must have to be saved. The idea that Christ was born of an immaculate or sinless mother, inherited no tendencies to sin, and for this reason did not sin, removes Him from the realm of a fallen world, and from the very place where help is needed. On His human side, Christ inherited just what every child of Adam inherits--a sinful nature. On the divine side, from His very conception He was begotten and born of the Spirit. And all this was done to place mankind on vantage ground, and to demonstrate that in the same way every one who is 'born of the Spirit' may gain the victories over sin in his own sinful flesh. Thus each one is to overcome as Christ overcame. Rev.3:211. Without this birth there can be no victory over temptation, and no salvation from sin. John 3:3-7."

On page 189 of the same book, we read,

"Where did God, in Christ, condemn sin, and gain the victory for us over temptation and sin?

Note: "God in Christ, condemned sin, not by pronouncing against it merely as a judge on the judgment seat, but by coming and living in the flesh, in sinful flesh, and yet without sinning. In Christ, He demonstrated that it is possible, by His grace and power, to resist temptation, overcome sin, and live a sinless life in sinful flesh."

And this is perfect harmonry with this:

"But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was srrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation." D.A.117.

sky

[John317]

If you can, get a hold of a wonderful book by Ralph Larsen, The Word Was Made Flesh. I believe that's the title. It contains all the evidence from both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, as well as all the statements by SDA leaders from 1852 to 1952 or so.

If you would like it, I can get addresses of how to obtain it.

It is essentially an anthology of all the evidence collected together into one book, a great source of information.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

We have to accept the fact that Christ was different from us John317.

Of course Christ was different from us. I did not say he was not different from us in any way. First of all, Christ was God. That makes Him different from you and me. He was both divine and human. I, on the other hand, am altogether human.

So we're not claiming Christ was not different from us.