God's Design for Man and Woman

[John317]

What does the Bible teach about God's plan for men and women in their relationships to one another?

In this discussion, anyone is free to quote the Bible or the SoP as authority. All views are welcome and no one will be banned for expressing their beliefs, no matter what they are. Be prepared to show evidence and reasoning from the Bible or the SoP.

All that's required is that there be no personal attacks and no name calling. Keep on topic and away from personalities.

:-)

[BobRyan]

They were created as equal partners in their sinless state - God taking the rib from Adam's side.

But at the fall God said to Eve "your desire shall be toward your husband and he shall rule over you". God selected one to lead and one to follow in the sinful state.

But when they choose to die to self and become Christian - then each one considers the other person as being more important than himself according to Phil 2.

Thus ends the rangling.

Of course all this only holds true for one who believes the Bible account to be inspired and trustworthy.

in Christ,

Bob

[doug yowell]

They were created as equal partners in their sinless state - God taking the rib from Adam's side.

But at the fall God said to Eve "your desire shall be toward your husband and he shall rule over you". God selected one to lead and one to follow in the sinful state.

All of the NT references to the original creation design seem to attach some practical significance to the order of creation.This indicates that equal partners do not share equal responsibilities but that God designates different roles to each gender/sex by creating them with different strengths which the other sex is not designed to adquately fulfill.

Peter clearly refers to the woman as "the weaker sex".Paul clearly states that the man is "head" of the woman. And yet all these distinctions are made within the framework of both being equal.

[doug yowell]

But at the fall God said to Eve "your desire shall be toward your husband and he shall rule over you".

This is the same definition given by God to Cain after his failure to meet God's requirements for sacrifice. Speaking of sin, God warned, "it's desire is towards you,but you should rule over it." This seems to indicate to me that,as a result of Adam's failure to knowingly resist her sinful influence,something would change in Eve's attitude towards her husband's leadership capability. Like sin desired to control Cain, Eve would desire to control her husband but it would be his responsibiity for maintaining that control.

[John317]

Are the following true statements or false?

Feel free to answer them any way you believe.

1) God made Adam first and gave only him the responsibility of naming the animals.

2)Before Eve was created, God gave Adam the commandment not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge.

3) Eve was alone at the tree at the time she was tempted and ate of the forbidden fruit.

4) Immediately after Eve ate of the forbidden tree, and before Adam chose to eat of it, all humanity was condemned.

5) If Adam had remained true to God, the Lord could have made him another companion to take the place of Eve.

6) Sin came upon all mankind through the sin of one man.

7) After sin, God made woman the head of the man.

8) In the Garden the woman was to protect the man.

9) When God first created Eve, she was taller than the man.

10) We have reason to believe that if Adam had been the first to eat of the forbidden fruit, God would have made Eve another companion to take Adam's place.

11) Adam was given specific instruction not to leave Eve's side.

12) Eve was given specific instructions not to leave Adam's side because it would be easier for her to Fall for Satan's temptations if she were alone.

NOTE: I think it is best to decide first if these statements are true or false before discussing their implications or what leszons we may draw from them.

[John317]

I just gave this quiz to my youngest daughter (with the promise of $10 if she got them all right) and she only missed one: #5.

I'll give her $9.00 after the sun sets.

Sorry I can't give everyone on the Forum the same thing. :-)

[Musicman1228]

First: God created 'mankind' on the 6th day of creation. He did not create Adam and Eve then, that was much later. Genesis 2 is a continuation of creation not a restatement of the first creation.

Second: When God did create Adam He also created Eve, because she was part of Adams DNA. Adam and Eve were one just as God the Father and Mother (Holy Spirit) are one; both are needed for creation, and both combine to make the image of God, masculine AND feminine.

No part of God is greater or lesser than any other part. Therefore, when God created Adam he also created Eve, and their relationship is just as is the relationship between the God head, one of complete unity of purpose, thought, and action.

[John317]

Now please show the Bible evidence for that. Can you give us a Bible study on this?

[Musicman1228]

We have always been taught (since SS kindergarten) that Adam and Eve were the first human beings on the earth. We have also been taught that Genesis Chapter 2 is a restatement of the creation story in Genesis 1. Yet when you take a close look at the creation account in Genesis 1 it does not match up with the account in Genesis 2. In Genesis 1 God created the whole world and everything in it. In Genesis 2 God created a single man and then placed him in a defined space, the Garden, at a defined location, Eden. In Gen.1:26-27 it states that God created 'mankind', that is the nations, just as He created all of the other animals in their teeming numbers. This cannot possibly mean just a single human male. Genesis 2 is a continuation of the story from Genesis 1, not a restatement.

Then in Genesis 2 God says that HE made a search for a 'helper' for Adam, because it was not good that this single man should live alone. If we are to believe the version that we have been taught then God searched all of the animals that He had previously created, such as hippos, and horses, dogs and cats, etc, in hopes of finding a suitable 'helper' for Adam. No animal would ever be suitable for a human male, and it is ludicrous to think that God would consider this even for a moment. This means that when God searched for a 'suitable helper' for Adam He was searching among the population of human females already present on the earth from the first creation in Gen.1:26-27. This is the only thing that makes sense.

Then God said that He did not find anyone suitable among those females. Why? Because they did not have the necessary component which would make them suitable for a being that had in him "N'shamah", the communicating Spirit that allows a human to communicate with God. The females of the earth had only "Nephish", the animal breath that keeps all living creatures alive. Therefore, God took DNA from Adam, whom He had already given "N'shamah', changed one chromosome (XX to XY) and created Adam's twin sister, who then became his wife. This perfectly imitates God, because God created 'mankind' in His image, male and female. Therefore, Adam and Eve reflected not only the masculine and feminine characteristics of God, but they also had the divine communicating Spirit of God, which they have passed on to all those that are born of the same Woman as was both the first Adam and the second Adam, Jesus Christ.

More later.

[Sonny]

Eve was told of the sorrow and pain that must henceforth be her portion. And the Lord said, "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." In the creation God had made her the equal of Adam. Had they remained obedient to God--in harmony with His great law of love--they would ever have been in harmony with each other; but sin had brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of the one or the other. Eve had been the first in transgression; and she had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. Had the principles joined in the law of God been cherished by the fallen race, this sentence, though growing out of the results of sin, would have proved a blessing to them; but man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him has too often rendered the lot of woman very bitter and made her life a burden. [Ellen White]

[John317]

...In Gen.1:26-27 it states that God created 'mankind', that is the nations, just as He created all of the other animals in their teeming numbers.

It says that God created mankind because he created Adam, the first man, the one from which all the rest of mankind descended. In that sense, all mankind was in Adam.

When you compare Genesis 1 and 2, what you find is that Genesis 1 is giving the creation account in an orderly, sequential manner and without special reference to mankind.

On the other hand, Genesis 2 shows the creation account from the viewpoint of mankind, protraying God as preparing the world for the human family. Human beings are viewed, then, as the central point of God's creation.

[BobRyan]

First: God created 'mankind' on the 6th day of creation. He did not create Adam and Eve then,

how so?

God created them male and female, and then tells us that their names were Adam and Eve.

Christ makes the exact same point in the Gospels.

Who are we to add "oh no you did not"??

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Not sure, but I think Musicmans theology is that God created a LOT of people AND Adam and Eve. And then something about devils having sex with "mankind" and producing offspring.

I don't know, the details are so far off the chart it's hard to keep up with the twists and turns.

[doug yowell]

Not sure, but I think Musicmans theology is that God created a LOT of people AND Adam and Eve. And then something about devils having sex with "mankind" and producing offspring.

I don't know, the details are so far off the chart it's hard to keep up with the twists and turns.

Let's be honest, it's the creation of a brand new history, similar in origin to that revealed by the Golden Tablets. It creates it's own charts as it progresses making the Bible more of an obstacle than a help.

[Musicman1228]

120 'adam aw-dawm' from 119; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind,

God created the fish, birds, and beasts in their teeming numbers during days two through 5 of creation. And yet we are told by insistent theology that God then stopped creating these 'teeming numbers' on the 6th day of creation when He created ONE man. This is not what the texts say:

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”   (27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Gen. 1:26-27.

This text even mentions these teeming numbers. If you look at these texts in the Septuigent you will see that there is clearly TWO creations; and this is confirmed even into common version of Genesis we use today

So, John, it is equally as likely that my version is correct as it is the traditional version to which you subscribe.

[John317]

(quoting): It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. Had the principles joined in the law of God been cherished by the fallen race, this sentence, though growing out of the results of sin, would have proved a blessing to them; but man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him has too often rendered the lot of woman very bitter and made her life a burden. [Ellen White]

Very true. It is wrong when this happens and no woman should accept such "abuse."

For me, though, the important point is that it was God who "now placed [Eve] in subjection to her husband."

The fact that many men abuse that position does not mean that wives are not placed by God in subjection to their husband. Abuse is one of the results of sin, but abuse doesn't change the position of man's "supremacy."

Notice that God never intended "subjection" to be a burden to women. When the relationship is according to God's plan, it will be like the description of it as found in Adventist Home, pages 211-239.

[John317]

120 'adam aw-dawm' from 119; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind,

Yes, and in the case of Gen. 1 and 2, it is speaking of an individual. When God created Adam the individual, the father of mankind, He created the species.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1229

God created the fish, birds, and beasts in their teeming numbers during days two through 5 of creation. And yet we are told by insistent theology that God then stopped creating these 'teeming numbers' on the 6th day of creation when He created ONE man.

That's exactly right.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1229

This is not what the texts say:

Then God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.   (27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Gen. 1:26-27.

The text says that God created a male and a female, two individuals whose names we know to've been Adam and Eve. This is precisely what Gen. 2 says. The difference is that Genesis 1 gives us a general view, whereas Genesis 2 gives us a closer view of the same creation. There's no contradition; only a different perspective. It is something like the various Gospels in that way.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

This text even mentions these teeming numbers. If you look at these texts in the Septuagent you will see that there is clearly TWO creations; and this is confirmed even into common version of Genesis we use today.

Please quote the verses in the Septuagent that you have reference to. I see no evidence in Gen. 1: 26-27 in the LXX that shows evidence of two creations.

Remember, MM, that the Septuagent is not always accurate, so if you believe that you get the "true version" of events in the Septuagent as opposed to the Masoretic text, you are making a mistake.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

So, John, it is equally as likely that my version is correct as it is the traditional version to which you subscribe.

I don't see it. Again, please quote the verses in the Septuagent that you're claiming support your idea of two creations.

[John317]

[Musicman1228]

Actually, John, from my study on the subject the Septuigent is MORE accurate than many of the 'regular' translations that are held to be 'gospel'.

And again, you make statements that ring of authority but I question your actual authority to make those definitive statements which are based on a traditional reading of Genesis 1 and 2.

So to kind of get on the same page would you please tell me where you believe the first few chapters of Genesis came from? What is you opinion as to how those words came into being and how they were transmitted down through the ages. This bears on how the translators did their jobs, and affects the results. Is there ANY component of 'oral tradition', or is everything in Genesis 1 - 6 a result of God speaking directly to human beings and giving them the information which we now have in those chapters.

Thanks.

[John317]

Actually, John, from my study on the subject the Septuigent is MORE accurate than many of the 'regular' translations that are held to be 'gospel'.

Have you actually compared the Septuagint with the Masoretic text? It is not a literal translation of the Hebrew, and sometimes it is quite different from the Hebrew, particularly in some books such as Jeremiah.

We're not talking about the translations. We're talking about the texts upon which the translations are based. Those are two different things.

None of the major translations of the OT are based on the Septuagint.

I am not saying the Septuagint is without value. But its value does not come from its being more accurate or superior to the Masoretic text. Its value lies in the detailed study of some of the vocabulary of the OT.

[John317]

MM, Please quote the verses in the Septuagent that you have reference to. I see no evidence in Gen. 1: 26-27 in the LXX that shows evidence of two creations.

[John317]

Actually, John, from my study on the subject the Septuagint is MORE accurate than many of the 'regular' translations that are held to be 'gospel'.

What do you have in mind? Can you be specific and give examples?

I'm not claiming that the Septuagint is never accurate in any of the verses in the Bible, but it is a paraphrase generally and is not a literal translation in most instances.

It served the early Christian church and especially the Apostle Paul well.

I am only questioning your thinking that we can find out the truth about "two creations" in Gen. 1 and 2 by studying the Septuagint. You have yet to make the case.

[John317]

And again, you make statements that ring of authority but I question your actual authority to make those definitive statements which are based on a traditional reading of Genesis 1 and 2.

Can you be specific?

[John317]

So to kind of get on the same page would you please tell me where you believe the first few chapters of Genesis came from? What is you opinion as to how those words came into being and how they were transmitted down through the ages. This bears on how the translators did their jobs, and affects the results. Is there ANY component of 'oral tradition', or is everything in Genesis 1 - 6 a result of God speaking directly to human beings and giving them the information which we now have in those chapters.

God revealed the truth to Moses and inspired him in the writing of the book.

We simply do not know about the actual process of the writing, and for our purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter. We're not concerned with textual or form criticism but with God's design for man and woman.

Here are some of the questions we're looking at:

Quote:

1) God made Adam first and gave only him the responsibility of naming the animals.

2)Before Eve was created, God gave Adam the commandment not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge.

3) Eve was alone at the tree at the time she was tempted and ate of the forbidden fruit.

4) Immediately after Eve ate of the forbidden tree, and before Adam chose to eat of it, all humanity was condemned.

5) If Adam had remained true to God, the Lord could have made him another companion to take the place of Eve.

6) Sin came upon all mankind through the sin of one man.

7) After sin, God made woman the head of the man.

8) In the Garden the woman was to protect the man.

9) When God first created Eve, she was taller than the man.

10) We have reason to believe that if Adam had been the first to eat of the forbidden fruit, God would have made Eve another companion to take Adam's place.

11) Adam was given specific instruction not to leave Eve's side.

12) Eve was given specific instructions not to leave Adam's side because it would be easier for her to Fall for Satan's temptations if she were alone.

I'd like to know your answers to those questions if you'd care to tell us.

I have never discussed these with my youngest daughter (age 19), but she ended up yesterday getting all of them correct except for #5. That was based just on her own reading of the Bible and what she learned in Sabbath School and church. I thought that was pretty good.

To answer those questions, we really don't need to know how Moses came to write the book of Genesis. It doesn't change what Genesis 1 and 2 say.

[John317]

Notice the following statement by God's prophet which says that God "now placed [Eve] in subjection to her husband." Notice that this was the direct result of sin. Therefore people are wrong if they claim that in heaven, women will be in subjection to men.

Notice below that Ellen White also states clearly that Eve "had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction." Even among SDAs there are those who, while claiming to believe in Ellen White, reject what she says about Eve's separating from Adam.

(quoting): ...Eve had been the first in transgression; and she had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. Had the principles joined in the law of God been cherished by the fallen race, this sentence, though growing out of the results of sin, would have proved a blessing to them; but man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him has too often rendered the lot of woman very bitter and made her life a burden. [Ellen White]