God's Design for Man and Woman

[doug yowell]

Are the following true statements or false?

Feel free to answer them any way you believe.

112) Eve was given specific instructions not to leave Adam's side because it would be easier for her to Fall for Satan's temptations if she were alone.

This is the reason why the answer to question #11 was no.Yes on 12.

[doug yowell]

So when do we get to talk about design?

[Gordon1]

simple and accurate post on that other thread

If you're speaking of epi's post - yes this lays the axe closer to the root. Unfortunately posts @ Original Thoughts are routinely censored. This occurs wherever the feminist agenda is held as an abiding truth, because holding to tradition closes the mind to freedom of expression.

Thanks John for affirming freedom of thought within the opening post.

[doug yowell]

Thanks John for affirming freedom of thought within the opening post.

...and for creating a forum that includes us in the discussion of this question.

[Gordon1]

This takes me back to God's originally stated ideal

Doug I fear we don't see how far we've fallen from God's design.

Those following His plan today would be laughed to scorn. (Psalm 22:7)

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

This takes me back to God's originally stated ideal

Doug I fear we don't see how far we've fallen from God's design.

Those following His plan today would be laughed to scorn. (Psalm 22:7)

You mean "are"?

[Gordon1]

'Twould be a rare exception to find, but just what Christ awaits.

[John317]

The Bible doesn't give us any information on whether Adam and Eve were cautioned about separating from one another, but it makes sense that they were, since Satan was going to do his best to get them to disobey God.

However, Ellen White has quite a bit to say on this point:

Quote:

Holy angels often visited the garden, and gave instruction to Adam and Eve concerning their employment and also taught them concerning the rebellion and fall of Satan. The angels warned them of Satan and cautioned them not to separate from each other in their employment, for they might be brought in contact with this fallen foe. The angels also enjoined upon them to follow closely the directions God had given them, for in perfect obedience only were they safe. Then this fallen foe could have no power over them.

Satan commenced his work with Eve, to cause her to disobey. She first erred in wandering from her husband, next in lingering around the forbidden tree, and next in listening to the voice of the tempter, and even daring to doubt what God had said... {EW 147}

A comparison of the above with Spiritual Gifts, vol. 1, page 20, begins with the statement, "I saw that the holy angels often visited the garden..."

Ellen White was shown these events in vision.

Patriarchs and Prophets adds some more detail:

Quote:

Satan was not to follow them with continual temptations; he could have access to them only at the forbidden tree. Should they attempt to investigate its nature, they would be exposed to his wiles. They were admonished to give careful heed to the warning which God had sent them and to be content with the instruction which He had seen fit to impart. {PP 53.3}

In order to accomplish his work unperceived, Satan chose to employ as his medium the serpent--a disguise well adapted for his purpose of deception. The serpent was then one of the wisest and most beautiful creatures on the earth. It had wings, and while flying through the air presented an appearance of dazzling brightness, having the color and brilliancy of burnished gold. Resting in the rich-laden branches of the forbidden tree and regaling itself with the delicious fruit, it was an object to arrest the attention and delight the eye of the beholder. Thus in the garden of peace lurked the destroyer, watching for his prey.

The angels had cautioned Eve to beware of separating herself from her husband while occupied in their daily labor in the garden; with him she would be in less danger from temptation than if she were alone. But absorbed in her pleasing task, she unconsciously wandered from his side. {PP 53, 54}

...The serpent plucked the fruit of the forbidden tree and placed it in the hands of the half-reluctant Eve. Then he reminded her of her own words, that God had forbidden them to touch it, lest they die. She would receive no more harm from eating the fruit, he declared, than from touching it. Perceiving no evil results from what she had done, Eve grew bolder. When she "saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat." It was grateful to the taste, and as she ate, she seemed to feel a vivifying power, and imagined herself entering upon a higher state of existence. Without a fear she plucked and ate. And now, having herself transgressed, she became the agent of Satan in working the ruin of her husband. In a state of strange, unnatural excitement, with her hands filled with the forbidden fruit, she sought his presence, and related all that had occurred. {PP 55.3}

An expression of sadness came over the face of Adam. He appeared astonished and alarmed. To the words of Eve he replied that this must be the foe against whom they had been warned; and by the divine sentence she must die. In answer she urged him to eat, repeating the words of the serpent, that they should not surely die. She reasoned that this must be true, for she felt no evidence of God's displeasure, but on the contrary realized a delicious, exhilarating influence, thrilling every faculty with new life, such, she imagined, as inspired the heavenly messengers. {PP 56.1}

Adam understood that his companion had transgressed the command of God, disregarded the only prohibition laid upon them as a test of their fidelity and love. There was a terrible struggle in his mind. He mourned that he had permitted Eve to wander from his side. But now the deed was done; he must be separated from her whose society had been his joy. How could he have it thus? Adam had enjoyed the companionship of God and of holy angels. He had looked upon the glory of the Creator. He understood the high destiny opened to the human race should they remain faithful to God. Yet all these blessings were lost sight of in the fear of losing that one gift which in his eyes outvalued every other. Love, gratitude, loyalty to the Creator--all were overborne by love to Eve. She was a part of himself, and he could not endure the thought of separation. He did not realize that the same Infinite Power who had from the dust of the earth created him, a living, beautiful form, and had in love given him a companion, could supply her place. He resolved to share her fate; if she must die, he would die with her. After all, he reasoned, might not the words of the wise serpent be true? Eve was before him, as beautiful and apparently as innocent as before this act of disobedience. She expressed greater love for him than before. No sign of death appeared in her, and he decided to brave the consequences. He seized the fruit and quickly ate.

....Adam reproached his companion for her folly in leaving his side and permitting herself to be deceived by the serpent; but they both flattered themselves that He who had given them so many evidences of His love, would pardon this one transgression, or that they would not be subjected to so dire a punishment as they had feared.

Satan exulted in his success. He had tempted the woman to distrust God's love, to doubt His wisdom, and to transgress His law, and through her he had caused the overthrow of Adam. {PP 57.3} {PP 56, 57}

[John317]

Here's a key quote from EGW on God's design for man and woman:

Quote:

Eve was told of the sorrow and pain that must henceforth be her portion. And the Lord said, "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." In the creation God had made her the equal of Adam. Had they remained obedient to God--in harmony with His great law of love--they would ever have been in harmony with each other; but sin had brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of the one or the other. Eve had been the first in transgression; and she had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. Had the principles joined in the law of God been cherished by the fallen race, this sentence, though growing out of the results of sin, would have proved a blessing to them; but man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him has too often rendered the lot of woman very bitter and made her life a burden. {PP 58.3}

Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing. In their desire for a higher sphere, many have sacrificed true womanly dignity and nobility of character, and have left undone the very work that Heaven appointed them. {PP 59.1}

....When God made man He made him rule over the earth and all living creatures. So long as Adam remained loyal to Heaven, all nature was in subjection to him. But when he rebelled against the divine law, the inferior creatures were in rebellion against his rule. {PP 59.4}

[John317]

So when do we get to talk about design?

Good idea. Let's do that.

[ClubV12]

Several other people come to mind with this so sad report of Adams terrible choice.

Contrast Adams temptation and decision with these few:

The Father, offering Jesus to die in our stead. A sacrafice far greater than Adam faced.

Abraham, called to sacrafice his son.

Moses, willing to die with his people if God were to blot them out.

In modern times, we have the report of William Miller from Sister White.

Miller was influenced by the men around him and as a result with a sincere and loving heart could not accept the new Adventist group then forming. Not if it meant leaving his brethren and family behind, people he loved deeply. He was trapped, there was no way out of his delima. God laid him in his grave to save him from himself.

[John317]

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

So when do we get to talk about design?

Good idea. Let's do that.

Both of your above quotes give a real insight into what EGW thought was both God's original design and His Plan B for fallen mankind. Many focus on the "equal of Adam" statement while completely overlooking the rest of her description of God's plan for fallen man's happiness. Those who call us back to the (alleged)prefall design do so by rejecting God's post fall solution as a humanly created, sin induced exercise in male domination.EGW's comments indicate just the opposite.

[addvantage]

Originally Posted By: John317

Are the following true statements or false?

Feel free to answer them any way you believe.

1) God made Adam first and gave only him the responsibility of naming the animals.

This is a true statement.

And so goes away the rumor of the oldest profession being prostitution. The real oldest profession was a "taxonomist".

[miz3]

Several other people come to mind with this so sad report of Adams terrible choice.

Contrast Adams temptation and decision with these few:

The Father, offering Jesus to die in our stead. A sacrafice far greater than Adam faced.

Abraham, called to sacrafice his son.

Moses, willing to die with his people if God were to blot them out.

In modern times, we have the report of William Miller from Sister White.

Miller was influenced by the men around him and as a result with a sincere and loving heart could not accept the new Adventist group then forming. Not if it meant leaving his brethren and family behind, people he loved deeply. He was trapped, there was no way out of his delima. God laid him in his grave to save him from himself.

So knowing that Miller would "sin" and make the wrong choice, God put Miller in the grave so that that sin would not be done.

Is this not manipulation?

Is not the fact that Miller would have done wrong make him just as lost as if he had done the wrong? Is the "sin" in the doing or in the intent to do?

Jesus Christ said that the intent of "lust" was the same as the doing of adultery. Jesus Christ also said that the intent of "hate" is the same as the doing of murder.

Based on that is not the intent of Miller to "sin" the same as the doing of the sin?

To me Ellen White is inconsistent with the Bible on this point.

[Gordon1]

The real oldest profession was a "taxonomist".

And this before sin entered.

[doug yowell]

[1) God made Adam first and gave only him the responsibility of naming the animals.

This is a true statement.

And so goes away the rumor of the oldest profession being prostitution. The real oldest profession was a "taxonomist".

I'm glad somebody finally cleared that up.

[doug yowell]

[quote=miz3Is not the fact that Miller would have done wrong make him just as lost as if he had done the wrong? Is the "sin" in the doing or in the intent to do?

Jesus Christ said that the intent of "lust" was the same as the doing of adultery. Jesus Christ also said that the intent of "hate" is the same as the doing of murder.

Based on that is not the intent of Miller to "sin" the same as the doing of the sin?

To me Ellen White is inconsistent with the Bible on this point.

[whatisthis]

Okay without looking up in the B or the SOP, just off the top of my head:

1 T

2 F

3 T

4 F

5 T

6 T

7 F

8 F

9 F

10 T, but that's already in here, isn't it?

11 T

Now, obviously the answers to these don't all seem to quite make sense, given in this form. I can see I may be misunderstanding some things!

[whatisthis]

The point that it was God who put woman in subjection to her husband, is very important to me too, especially in relationship to the fact that abuse of this (done the way God did not put woman in subjection to,) causes women's lives to be unnecessarily bitter. This means there has to be a kool way to be in subjection. It must not be totally unkool to lean into the loving leadership of a man, to defer to him! It must be that a trusting woman can safely have a trustworthy man! That is just beautiful!

But very hard to figure out the details of, for both men and women, I think. Maybe if we didn't trumpet about this, but as a team learned to learn how to be in this kind of relationship, together, we'd see so many more happy relationships? I don't think any woman should shrilly say to her man, "You just won't lead me! You should be more... (whatever) And I don't think any man should blast a woman with "You just won't trust my authority!" either. If we gave up some trumpeting about rights it would be easier to lead and easier to follow, wouldn't it?

[whatisthis]

5) If Adam had remained true to God, the Lord would have made him another companion to take the place of Eve.

The Bible does not say.

SoP says yes making the statement True. If we take only the Bible it is unknown! My personal opinion is that God would have destroyed Eve and given Adam another spouse. Since this is not what happened all is pure conjecture and basically meaningless.

TRUE. Based on my opinion.

My thoughts on this particular part of the puzzle here, are that Ellen was a woman and women often say things in a way that's incomplete and inconclusive. They leave things to be drawn from inference in other places, focusing on the point they are making. What Ellen means here is that God could have (if Eve were unrepentant and God had to go to the full extent of providing for Adam when Eve refused to repent) destroyed Eve as he will destroy the fully impenitent in the end of time, and created another wife for Adam.

[ClubV12]

It was never Millers intent to sin, far from it, he loved the Lord, lived up to the light he had and Sister White tells us angels gaurd his grave. But he was headed for a disaster of a decision, more than he could bare. God knows what we can and cannot endure, so he took Miller to save him from a future he could not survive.

Many people, right now, are trapped in circumstances that make it all but impossible to fully serve God or serve God in the way they would like too. In the final moments of the final controversy ALL will be "freed up" to make a decision for or against the Lord. Every obstacle will be removed, jobs, family, responsibilities, nothing will matter anymore, exept to make a decision to follow Christ. No matter what the cost. That time is coming, but not yet here "globally speaking".

You cannot just "blow off" a family, a marriage, a job, or cause great harm to others if you "quit" what your doing. To follow God? How will anybody see THAT as "following God" if you were to bring so much pain to those around you? Some circumstances, just leave you trapped and there is no way out. I know, I myself was "trapped" for 10 years with God given responsibilities that I could not simply dismiss. I WANTED to seek the Lord, learn more about Him, follow Him, but my circumstances made it impossible. Looking back, I see it was all in His hands, in His time, He knew the longing of my heart. It was quite remarkable when the "fullness of time" came around the events that enabled me to follow my "dream". To find the Lord, which was always my "intent".

[John317]

Okay without looking up in the B or the SOP, just off the top of my head:

1 T

2 F

3 T

4 F

5 T

6 T

7 F

8 F

9 F

10 T, but that's already in here, isn't it?

11 T

Now, obviously the answers to these don't all seem to quite make sense, given in this form. I can see I may be misunderstanding some things!

I think you did really well, whatisthis.

Please check these out again:

2)Before Eve was created, God gave Adam the commandment not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge.

See Gen. 2: 16-18, 21. The creation narrative makes it appear that the command not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge was given to Adam prior to Eve's creation.

10) We have reason to believe that if Adam had been the first to eat of the forbidden fruit, God could have made Eve another companion to take Adam's place.

See Patriarchs and Prophets, page 56, near bottom of second paragraph.

Note that I changed the wording from "would" to "could." Not sure if this makes any difference in your answer.

11) Adam was given specific instruction not to leave Eve's side.

Adam and Eve were cautioned not to separate from one another, and the angels warned both of the dangers that threatened them, telling them to be on their guard against the devices of Satan. PP 52, 53, 56, 57.

12) Eve was given specific instructions not to leave Adam's side because it would be easier for her to Fall for Satan's temptations if she were alone.

See Patriarchs and Prophets, page 53, paragraph 5. "The angels had cautioned Eve to beware of separating herself from her husband while occupied in their daily labor in the garden; with him she would be in less danger from temptation than if she were alone."

[John317]

You made a lot of good points that Ellen White also makes in her writings on marriage:

Quote:

Wives Submit; Husbands Love.--The question is often asked, "Shall a wife have no will of her own?" The Bible plainly states that the husband is the head of the family. "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands." If this injunction ended here, we might say that the position of the wife is not an enviable one; it is a very hard and trying position in very many cases, and it would be better were there fewer marriages. Many husbands stop at the words, "Wives, submit yourselves," but we will read the conclusion of the same injunction, which is. "As it is fit in the Lord." {AH 115, 116}

God requires that the wife shall keep the fear and glory of God ever before her. Entire submission is to be made only to the Lord Jesus Christ, who has purchased her as His own child by the infinite price of His life. God has given her a conscience, which she cannot violate with impunity. Her individuality cannot be merged into that of her husband, for she is the purchase of Christ. It is a mistake to imagine that with blind devotion she is to do exactly as her husband says in all things, when she knows that in so doing, injury would be worked for her body and her spirit, which have been ransomed from the slavery of Satan. There is One who stands higher than the husband to the wife; it is her Redeemer, and her submission to her husband is to be rendered as God has directed--"as it is fit in the Lord." {AH 116.1}

When husbands require the complete subjection of their wives, declaring that women have no voice or will in the family, but must render entire submission, they place their wives in a position contrary to the Scripture. In interpreting the Scripture in this way, they do violence to the design of the marriage institution. This interpretation is made simply that they may exercise arbitrary rule, which is not their prerogative. But we read on, "Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them." Why should the husband be bitter against his wife? If the husband has found her erring and full of faults, bitterness of spirit will not remedy the evil. {AH 116.2}

Wives Subject Only As Husbands Are Subject to Christ.--The Lord Jesus has not been correctly represented in His relation to the church by many husbands in their relation to their wives, for they do not keep the way of the Lord. They declare that their wives must be subject to them in everything. But it was not the design of God that the husband should have control, as head of the house, when he himself does not submit to Christ. He must be under the rule of Christ that he may represent the relation of Christ to the church. If he is a coarse, rough, boisterous, egotistical, harsh, and overbearing man, let him never utter the word that the husband is the head of the wife, and that she must submit to him in everything; for he is not the Lord, he is not the husband in the true significance of the term. . . . {AH 117.1}

Husbands should study the pattern and seek to know what is meant by the symbol presented in Ephesians, the relation Christ sustains to the church. The husband is to be as a Saviour in his family. Will he stand in his noble, God-given manhood, ever seeking to uplift his wife and children? Will he breathe about him a pure, sweet atmosphere? Will he not as assiduously cultivate the love of Jesus, making it an abiding principle in his home, as he will assert his claims to authority? {AH 117.2}

Let every husband and father study to understand the words of Christ, not in a one-sided manner, merely dwelling upon the subjection of the wife to her husband, but in the light of the cross of Calvary, study as to his own position in the family circle. "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it; that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word." Jesus gave Himself up to die upon the cross in order that He might cleanse and keep us from all sin and pollution by the influence of the Holy Spirit. {AH 117.3}

A father must not be as a child, moved merely by impulse. He is bound to his family by sacred, holy ties. Every member of the family centers in the father. His name, "house-band," is the true definition of husband. He is the lawmaker, illustrating in his own manly bearing the sterner virtues, energy, integrity, honesty, and practical usefulness. The father is in one sense the priest of the household, laying upon the altar of God the morning and evening sacrifice, while the wife and children unite in prayer and praise. With such a household Jesus will tarry, and through His quickening influence the parents' joyful exclamations shall yet be heard amid more exalted scenes, saying: "Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me." Saved, saved, eternally saved! freed from the corruption that is in the world through lust, and through the merits of Christ made heirs of immortality! I saw that but few fathers realize their responsibility. They have not learned to control themselves, and until this lesson is learned they will make poor work in governing their children. Perfect self-control will act as a charm upon the family. When this is attained, a great victory is gained. Then they can educate their children to self-control. {1T 547.1}

[John317]

...

So knowing that Miller would "sin" and make the wrong choice, God put Miller in the grave so that that sin would not be done.

Is this not manipulation?

....Based on that is not the intent of Miller to "sin" the same as the doing of the sin?

To me Ellen White is inconsistent with the Bible on this point.

I think you misunderstand the situation that Miller was in. Ellen White is not claiming that God manipulated Miller so that he could not do what was in his heart. It wasn't Miller's intention to rebel and sin against God. So Ellen White isn't saying that God laid Miller in the grave in order to keep him from committing sin against God. Miller went to sleep in Jesus in order to keep him from doing something which he wouldn't have wanted to do. I don't believe Miller is the only one that God saves from themselves. We all ought to pray that God will protect us from ourselves. We are often blind as to the consequences of what we do and say, and only God can protect us from such things. I give God permission to do what He can to save me from myself. I'm sure Miller prayed the same prayer to God.