God's Design for Man and Woman

[John317]

[ClubV12]

You guys remember that old Janis Joplin song, "Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose." I always thought that was so profound and it's stayed with me all my life.

Thats what will happen right at the end of the final conflict. I think the world will be in such turmoil, financial collapse, very jobs (if any) for anybody, rampant crime, the government of the verge of collapse, families turning on each other, starvation, desperation, murders, no safety to be found in anything or anywhere.

"Nothin' left to loose...." Freedom is the end result, mental freedom from earthly responsibilities, freedom to choose God, even if it means certain death. Ultimately, freedom is in the mind, not the body.

The final "freedom" for me came when my son told me if I became a christian he would never talk to me again. He left, hasn't called in a year, won't return my messages. He made a choice, my door and heart remain open. I to had made a choice, I had to follow the Lord, no matter what...

[doug yowell]

Not sure how that fits in with the theme of the thread,Club. Can you connect it? PS. I think it was written by Kris Kristofferson.

[ClubV12]

"What does the Bible teach about God's plan for men and women in their relationships to one another?"

Was the original question posed. Expanding that to include family, a fundamental part of a man and womans relationship. Is it OK to leave your wife or family to follow God? Close your company, leave your employees without jobs, your family and business finances in ruin?

[Gordon1]

Sorry to hear about your son's position. Maybe he will see that Christ worked tirelessly for the uplifting of man. Feeding the hungry, healing the sick, never lying or stealing.

He may have received a bad impression from false professors.

But it's hard to argue with Christ's mission - he was an underdog (er, Underdog) and if we follow him, we will be too.

[skyblue888]

You made a lot of good points that Ellen White also makes in her writings on marriage:

Quote:

Wives Submit; Husbands Love.--The question is often asked, "Shall a wife have no will of her own?" The Bible plainly states that the husband is the head of the family. "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands." If this injunction ended here, we might say that the position of the wife is not an enviable one; it is a very hard and trying position in very many cases, and it would be better were there fewer marriages. Many husbands stop at the words, "Wives, submit yourselves," but we will read the conclusion of the same injunction, which is. "As it is fit in the Lord." {AH 115, 116}

God requires that the wife shall keep the fear and glory of God ever before her. Entire submission is to be made only to the Lord Jesus Christ, who has purchased her as His own child by the infinite price of His life. God has given her a conscience, which she cannot violate with impunity. Her individuality cannot be merged into that of her husband, for she is the purchase of Christ. It is a mistake to imagine that with blind devotion she is to do exactly as her husband says in all things, when she knows that in so doing, injury would be worked for her body and her spirit, which have been ransomed from the slavery of Satan. There is One who stands higher than the husband to the wife; it is her Redeemer, and her submission to her husband is to be rendered as God has directed--"as it is fit in the Lord." {AH 116.1}

When husbands require the complete subjection of their wives, declaring that women have no voice or will in the family, but must render entire submission, they place their wives in a position contrary to the Scripture. In interpreting the Scripture in this way, they do violence to the design of the marriage institution. This interpretation is made simply that they may exercise arbitrary rule, which is not their prerogative. But we read on, "Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them." Why should the husband be bitter against his wife? If the husband has found her erring and full of faults, bitterness of spirit will not remedy the evil. {AH 116.2}

Wives Subject Only As Husbands Are Subject to Christ.--The Lord Jesus has not been correctly represented in His relation to the church by many husbands in their relation to their wives, for they do not keep the way of the Lord. They declare that their wives must be subject to them in everything. But it was not the design of God that the husband should have control, as head of the house, when he himself does not submit to Christ. He must be under the rule of Christ that he may represent the relation of Christ to the church. If he is a coarse, rough, boisterous, egotistical, harsh, and overbearing man, let him never utter the word that the husband is the head of the wife, and that she must submit to him in everything; for he is not the Lord, he is not the husband in the true significance of the term. . . . {AH 117.1}

Husbands should study the pattern and seek to know what is meant by the symbol presented in Ephesians, the relation Christ sustains to the church. The husband is to be as a Saviour in his family. Will he stand in his noble, God-given manhood, ever seeking to uplift his wife and children? Will he breathe about him a pure, sweet atmosphere? Will he not as assiduously cultivate the love of Jesus, making it an abiding principle in his home, as he will assert his claims to authority? {AH 117.2}

Let every husband and father study to understand the words of Christ, not in a one-sided manner, merely dwelling upon the subjection of the wife to her husband, but in the light of the cross of Calvary, study as to his own position in the family circle. "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it; that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word." Jesus gave Himself up to die upon the cross in order that He might cleanse and keep us from all sin and pollution by the influence of the Holy Spirit. {AH 117.3}

A father must not be as a child, moved merely by impulse. He is bound to his family by sacred, holy ties. Every member of the family centers in the father. His name, "house-band," is the true definition of husband. He is the lawmaker, illustrating in his own manly bearing the sterner virtues, energy, integrity, honesty, and practical usefulness. The father is in one sense the priest of the household, laying upon the altar of God the morning and evening sacrifice, while the wife and children unite in prayer and praise. With such a household Jesus will tarry, and through His quickening influence the parents' joyful exclamations shall yet be heard amid more exalted scenes, saying: "Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me." Saved, saved, eternally saved! freed from the corruption that is in the world through lust, and through the merits of Christ made heirs of immortality! I saw that but few fathers realize their responsibility. They have not learned to control themselves, and until this lesson is learned they will make poor work in governing their children. Perfect self-control will act as a charm upon the family. When this is attained, a great victory is gained. Then they can educate their children to self-control. {1T 547.1}

Great statements!

John, I don't know about others but I have to strain my eyes to read this colour red.

sky

[John317]

OH, ok. I didn't know that. I won't use it as often then. Thanks for telling me.

[Gail]

Time to get the reading glasses out, sky... LOL

[skyblue888]

yeahh i know Gail, no need to remind me I'm getting old lol

but you're not very far behind me, or are you? hehe

[John317]

Hi Gail,

Would you like to play a Bible and SoP quiz? It's fun.

Quote:

True or false?

Feel free to answer them any way you believe.

1) God made Adam first and gave only him the responsibility of naming the animals.

2)Before Eve was created, God gave Adam the commandment not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge.

3) Eve was alone at the tree at the time she was tempted and ate of the forbidden fruit.

4) Immediately after Eve ate of the forbidden tree, and before Adam chose to eat of it, all humanity was condemned.

5) If Adam had remained true to God, the Lord could have made him another companion to take the place of Eve.

6) Sin came upon all mankind through the sin of one man.

7) After sin, God made woman the head of the man.

8) In the Garden the woman was to protect the man.

9) When God first created Eve, she was taller than the man.

10) We have reason to believe that if Adam had been the first to eat of the forbidden fruit, God would have made Eve another companion to take Adam's place.

11) Adam was given specific instruction not to leave Eve's side.

12) Eve was given specific instructions not to leave Adam's side because it would be easier for her to Fall for Satan's temptations if she were alone.

[John317]

You guys remember that old Janis Joplin song, "Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose." I always thought that was so profound and it's stayed with me all my life.

Thats what will happen right at the end of the final conflict.

Hey, Club, did you mean for this post to be on another discussion. I can't see the connection between it and what we're talking about here.

But I do remember that song by Janis Joplin. I got CDs by her but haven't listened to her in several years.

[ClubV12]

It's for THIS thread, here's the reasoning:

It ties back to some comments about William Miller a few pages back, suggesting he was "lost" because he would not join the new Adventist movement. Of course we know Miller was taken because he could not, in good faith, join them because of basically "family and friends" issues.

The question that poses for me is this:

If you know that a decision to follow God to that "next level" will have a catastrophic impact on your spouse (family, business, etc.) is it morally justified to follow God even when it WILL wreck havoc on your loved ones lives?

What is Gods plan for man and woman facing this terrible choice? In Millers case, there was no plan, no way out, he was trapped by his own sincere and honest desire to do right by man and God. He could not please both, to go either way would have been "sin". The only solution was to lay him in the earth.

Right now, there are many many people faced with this kind of terrible choice. To follow God all the way will result in terrible consequences for others. Is that morally acceptable to God? I think not,,, it wasn't acceptable in Millers case.

[John317]

OK, I see that now. It ties in with what miz3 was saying about Miller.

[ClubV12]

It ties in with ME, this is very similiar to the delima I personally was faced with for a number of years. I wanted to follow God, but at what cost to OTHERS does this not become an acceptable option? To spouse? Family? Work? Community?

When I LOST everything, the answer was easy, I found the freedom!

[John317]

Jesus said that if we do not "hate" family and friends for His sake, we're unworthy of being His disciples. Of course we know Jesus meant that we must put Christ ahead of everyone else, including wife, children, and parents. So if we find that our family is keeping us from doing what we know God has called us to do, we must do what God wants and reject what our family may want. I don't believe that ever means divorcing a wife, but I can imagine its meaning that we must do what our family considers wrong. Our obedience to God may even cause family members not to have anything to do with us, as in the case of your son. It can be a real sacrifice to walk with Christ and to do what's right. No one likes to hurt family members.

[ClubV12]

I agree, we have to put God first, to the best of our ability.

I believe there are thousands facing a similar delima Miller faced. A moral obligation to their spouse, family, friends or combinations thereof. Honestly, truly, sincerely blinding them to the greater moral obligation to follow God, to the "next level". Or ANY level as far as that goes. For instance, for a Muslim to even THINK of following God (in some cases) could not only put yourself at serious risk (death) but also put your family at serious risk. I could understand a person of good faith and honest heart not being able to resolve some of these moral delimas.

It's one thing to BE a christian, it's another to WANT to be a christian and being trapped by circumstances that prevent it. God will work it out, although, it might take a few decades...

[John317]

Yes, Muslims especially can have it very hard. Imagine knowing that if you confess publicly your love of the living Christ, you could be killed and your loved ones made to suffer terribly. That's why I believe many Muslims believe in their heart but they don't dare tell others. God understands.

[Gordon1]

It's for THIS thread, here's the reasoning:

It ties back to some comments about William Miller a few pages back, suggesting he was "lost" because he would not join the new Adventist movement. Of course we know Miller was taken because he could not, in good faith, join them because of basically "family and friends" issues.

The question that poses for me is this:

If you know that a decision to follow God to that "next level" will have a catastrophic impact on your spouse (family, business, etc.) is it morally justified to follow God even when it WILL wreck havoc on your loved ones lives?

What is Gods plan for man and woman facing this terrible choice? In Millers case, there was no plan, no way out, he was trapped by his own sincere and honest desire to do right by man and God. He could not please both, to go either way would have been "sin". The only solution was to lay him in the earth.

Right now, there are many many people faced with this kind of terrible choice. To follow God all the way will result in terrible consequences for others. Is that morally acceptable to God? I think not,,, it wasn't acceptable in Millers case.

Hi Club, I'm not sure all this reasoning applies to Miller - though it's some years since I read his story. As I recall, as an 1812 veteran, J.P. & farmer, he had already made his choice by accepting (reluctantly, but fulfilling a vow) to speak the first time, somewhere around 50 yrs. of age. (but being well prepared in Bible study) Eventually he was touring for months at his own expense. I believe his family ran the farm in his absence. Miller was committed to the message, but after the Great Disappointment he was not quick to follow the Sabbath light. Miller's friends, who had been his earthly support in these trying times convinced him otherwise. He did not think that those who had been so loyal to him could lead him astray. It is not the quandry you present, of family or earthly obligations vs God's requirements. It was the influence of his peer group in whom he trusted. Either my memory is deficient or your source is different from mine. So he was not laid in the grave to save him from an 'impossible decision'. He had accepted the counsel of his friends who kept him from the light.

If the facts are misconstrued one can draw the wrong conclusions. What's your take on my memory version?

[ClubV12]

I think that is spot on Gordon, he was being mislead by friends, family, co-workers, the details of "who" these people were is not as important as the end result.

It is also true that he dearly loved these people and could not fathom the idea of having to separate himself from them. Moral delima? I couldn't rule that out. He certainly loved God and loving his fellow man was a demonstration of that love. How could he leave them to take that next step to follow God when it appeared to him that to do so would be "sin"? We are ever called to higher ground, but we are not called to do that which is beyond our ability. A "conundrum" considering verses like we can do all things through Christ!

We are told that in the very last of days in earths history many will throw off the restrictions of "family" and "friends" that have kept them from advancing in the truth or accepting the truth. We all come to a place where individually we will have to decide to stand for the Lord, no matter what the end result. Children will leave their mothers, husband their wives, families will be split. The "moral delima" binding them now will be removed, is the way I see that prophecy. I think the Sunday law and it's increasingly terrible consequences will play a major roll in this. There is coming a time when it will be clear to all that they have no other choice but to "leave home". For some, that time has not yet come. I think the "freedom" to make these terrible choices will be enabled by a world that is failing all around us. Financially, spiritually, Governments on the edge of collapse, death and destruction all around us as we near the very last days. In short, "nothing left to loose" in terms of earthly bindings.

In terms of MY personal delima, I had a concept of God, fuzzy, through a very dark glass. I could not resolve how taking that "next step" could be justified by the terrible moral consequences it would have brought to my family. My wife (ex) is a firm atheist, a University research Professor of chemistry. She would have left and taken my son for sure, which she eventually did. Though no fault of mine, I did everything in my power, truly, with an honest heart, to hold my family together. I felt "guilty" for some time wondering if I had done enough or that secretly I had urged her departure in some way(s)? Looking back now, I'm OK with it, the Lord was in it. Making plain that which I had to do AND providing, enabling me, a way to do it.

For some the question is: Is it OK to destroy your family, leave your wife, quit your job to follow God? Is that presumption or wild fanaticism? Is it an "excuse" to get out of a bad situation?

[doug yowell]

What does the Bible teach about God's plan for men and women in their relationships to one another?

And here all this time I thought that this was the question.OOps, my bad.

[Gordon1]

Hi Club, I don't see that Miller viewed it as sin to separate from his friends, to take a different path. He was used to schism and conflict - remember his message caused '50,000' to leave the churches - major heresy in any era, and he was the catalyst. Rather I think that Miller had battle fatigue and sought comfort in those who had held him up before. I believe this was contrary to the Lord's direction and that Miller 'fell under Satan's influence' and chose the repose of earthly company rather than face further personal church trials. IOW, he chose human company over Christ. This is always sin in my understanding, just as Moses faltered on the border of the promised land and struck the Rock in anger. IOW, Miller was in the wrong. Satan accuses him for it, but holy angels guard his grave, according to SOP.

It seems different from your own case, and not sure what one could have offered you in those trying times. Fasting & prayer is the Biblical counsel for those stuck in spiritual dilemmae. He has not failed me. God sees all and has solutions at hand. We all have crises to face and He has picked the way of escape. But each case is different, no man can choose for another in these close quarters. Christ wants us to depend upon him personally - this is the reason for trials - to foster that growth.

All this said, we need to keep a clear view of faith versus presumption. When William Miller next speaks, I think he'll testify that his choice was the wrong one. Maybe he was laid in the grave to prevent his influence from growing against the light.

In the end all cases must meet at the Judgment seat. Much misery could have been avoided if all Advent believers had shared their light with others. The entire world would look different. Marriages, education, health and brain function would be different. Christ would have come long ago.

We do not see that we are our brother's keeper.

[Gordon1]

So in some sense, those with light owe an apology to those who are struggling in darkness.

[skyblue888]

I agree with you Gordon. Great posts.

Club, you wrote: "For some the question is: Is it OK to destroy your family, leave your wife, quit your job to follow God? Is that presumption or wild fanaticism? Is it an "excuse" to get out of a bad situation?"

We are not destroying family and friends when following our conscience led by the Holy Spirit who has convinced us of the truth whatever it may be. We are to follow the leading of the Spirit no matter what the consequences may be. This is not our worry. It is God's. We are to leave the consequences to God. It is not presumption or wild fanaticism to follow God even if it means our wives leaving us or losing our jobs. The world will see it as such of course only because they do not see the invisible and do not understand what is really at stake.

"The servants of God are called to the same work, and they should beware lest, in seeking to prevent discord, they surrender the truth. Their only fear should be lest they surrender the truth and thus betray the trust with which God has honored them." D.A.356.

"With Him there can be no such thing as failure, loss, impossibility, or defeat." D.A.490.

It may look like a loss to us but it is not.

It sure looked like a loss to me when my ex left me twenty years ago. I loved her very much.

sky

[Gail]

It's been 20 years? Wow!

[skyblue888]

Yes Gail, 20 long years! :)