If I May

[M. T. Cross]

As I have lurked around here over the course of the last few years - posting occasionally - I have come to notice something. Its not something new to me, growing up in the SDA church I saw a lot of it, but it makes me sad to see that it has never gone away.

The matter I speak of is this. There are more threads and discussions on the wrongs of others, be they other spiritual paths, other Christian denominations, the Jewish Faith, the Islamic faiths etc. Being a student of the religions of the world often times the critisms I have seen were based in a lot of misinformation and ignorance.

The thing I wonder is this. You truly KNOW you have the truth. That the SDA church is the real message of Jesus and your God. So why spend so much time worrying about what the Jews, Muslims, Catholics and other protestants, and of course us Pagans are doing? Rejoice in what you know and have found. Let it shine through you and be gratefull that your search is over. If you are right your actions will do much more to convert those of us that do not believe than the pulpit pounding condemnation that is so prominantly displayed.

I have a saying that I say to the members of my religion when bidding them farewell, and I think it fits the bill here. Go in peace, live well, sleep well, dream well, be refreshed and let the Divine shine through you.

Thing is - if you let it - it will shine through you and then we will all find peace.

[phkrause]

As I have lurked around here over the course of the last few years - posting occasionally - I have come to notice something. Its not something new to me, growing up in the SDA church I saw a lot of it, but it makes me sad to see that it has never gone away.

The matter I speak of is this. There are more threads and discussions on the wrongs of others, be they other spiritual paths, other Christian denominations, the Jewish Faith, the Islamic faiths etc. Being a student of the religions of the world often times the critisms I have seen were based in a lot of misinformation and ignorance.

The thing I wonder is this. You truly KNOW you have the truth. That the SDA church is the real message of Jesus and your God. So why spend so much time worrying about what the Jews, Muslims, Catholics and other protestants, and of course us Pagans are doing? Rejoice in what you know and have found. Let it shine through you and be gratefull that your search is over. If you are right your actions will do much more to convert those of us that do not believe than the pulpit pounding condemnation that is so prominantly displayed.

I have a saying that I say to the members of my religion when bidding them farewell, and I think it fits the bill here. Go in peace, live well, sleep well, dream well, be refreshed and let the Divine shine through you.

Thing is - if you let it - it will shine through you and then we will all find peace.

[jasd]

>>...discussions on the wrongs of others, be they other spiritual paths, other Christian denominations, the Jewish Faith, the Islamic faiths etc.<<

...guess it goes to ‘Watchman on the wall...’ and the utter devastation which may attend the negligent watchman.

Nice is nice; however, sometimes, nice is not worth two farthings.

[ClubV12]

The third angels message (or the first and second) are not:

"Go in peace, live well, sleep well, dream well, be refreshed and let the Divine shine through you."

They are a serious call to WAKE UP, the hour is at hand, His judgment is here.

"The third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, 'If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.'" (Revelation 14:9-12 KJV)

[M. T. Cross]

Indeed Club - I think you just made my point.

If you KNOW you are on the right path - you have nothing to worry about there. So rather than spend so much time and energy trying to fix everyone - celebrate what you have found, bask in it and if you do that you will likely get the attention of those "condemned" than by the constant looking down the nose, judging, and condemnation. (btw the "you" I speak of is a general statement - not you directly)

Other than the most radical muslims I fail to see how any of these other people directly threaten your salvation. So why spend so much time thinking about how you are right and they are wrong..... It honestly confuses me.

[John317]

....The thing I wonder is this. You truly KNOW you have the truth. That the SDA church is the real message of Jesus and your God. So why spend so much time worrying about what the Jews, Muslims, Catholics and other protestants, and of course us Pagans are doing?

For me it isn't a matter of "worrying" about the beliefs of the various religions. Like you, I've been a student of world religions, so it is actually more like a life-long hobby. I enjoy studying the Koran, Catholic Catechisms, as well as systematic theologies.

I believe it's important for us to know what the beliefs are of the various religions, particularly the Muslims and Roman Catholics.

It's important in order to know how to communicate the gospel to them. I personally have close friends who are Muslim and I have dozens of relatives who are Catholics.

I think it's good to know the false views of prophecy and theology that are held by some of the Protestant churches so that we can recognize and avoid those ideas.

I certainly don't find that studying these religions or discussing them keeps me from being a joyful Seventh-day Adventist Christian.

[ClubV12]

Are you suggesting that the Seventh-day Adventist church STOP doing the very thing they were commissioned TO do? Deliver the third angels message, to all of mankind, to every race, to every person in the world, to you, Emptycross.

I don't take that responsibility lightly and apply it with equal force to my very own life. Am I sleeping or I am awake to the danger that is as surely coming as the sunrise tommorow morning?

It is THE message for our time, for all of humanity. Please consider it carefully...

[Gerr]

I probably spend most of my time on this board answering the criticisms of ex-Adventists & non-SDAs that I have very little time pointing out what's wrong with others. Of course, in the process of sharing the truth, one can't help but point out the error in the other person's position.

[M. T. Cross]

That makes sense too John. I study religions to learn from them and because I think that religion is one of the greatest methods of getting an insight into people.

My question is this - as far as other Protestants. They think you have false prophecy as well. Would not an open discussion with them be more productive than critisizing them?

[John317]

If you KNOW you are on the right path - you have nothing to worry about there. So rather than spend so much time and energy trying to fix everyone - celebrate what you have found, bask in it and if you do that you will likely get the attention of those "condemned" than by the constant looking down the nose, judging, and condemnation. (btw the "you" I speak of is a general statement - not you directly)

Other than the most radical muslims I fail to see how any of these other people directly threaten your salvation. So why spend so much time thinking about how you are right and they are wrong..... It honestly confuses me.

Do you believe that Christ commands us in Matt. 28: 19 to preach the gospel to the whole world, to every human being on the face of the earth?

It's not a question of people threatening our or my salvation. I don't feel that way at all.

Nor is it a matter of spending time think about how right we are or how wrong they are... it is a matter of taking seriously what Christ commands ALL His followers to do.

Do you believe that the Three Angels Messages are to be proclaimed to the whole world?

That seems to be the opposite of what you appear to be suggesting.

[M. T. Cross]

Are you suggesting that the Seventh-day Adventist church STOP doing the very thing they were commissioned TO do? Deliver the third angels message, to all of mankind, to every race, to every person in the world, to you, Emptycross.

I don't take that responsibility lightly and apply it with equal force to my very own life. Am I sleeping or I am awake to the danger that is as surely coming as the sunrise tommorow morning?

It is THE message for our time, for all of humanity. Please consider it carefully...

Well I am one of those that gets a bit miffed if you come to my door......

That said I do understand that part of your religion is to spread your message. If you read really carefully you will notice what I was saying was that IMO it would be more effectively spread by showing that light shining through you than by condemning people. Just my take.

[M. T. Cross]

I probably spend most of my time on this board answering the criticisms of ex-Adventists & non-SDAs that I have very little time pointing out what's wrong with others. Of course, in the process of sharing the truth, one can't help but point out the error in the other person's position.

Don't you have toreally understand that position to point out the error?

For what its worth - I am not critisizing your religion. I am all for every single person finding that thing that works for them.

I used to have this conversation with my parents and some of their friends from the church all the time when they were still around. They would go off on a tangent about the evils of someones beliefs. I would ask them what they actually knew about this persons beliefs and they would sit there stuttering and stammering before they would admit that they knew nothing about it. Yet they were willing to damn those beliefs.

Thats what bothers me.

[John317]

My question is this - as far as other Protestants. They think you have false prophecy as well. Would not an open discussion with them be more productive than critisizing them?

Yes, you're right that they believe we have false ideas and false prophetic interpretations. That's to be expected.

I enjoy discussing these things with anyone who is interested.

I do it on the board here a lot, actually.

In fact, I'll do it with you sometime if you're interested. I don't criticize per se but I do point out similarities and differences.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

If you KNOW you are on the right path - you have nothing to worry about there. So rather than spend so much time and energy trying to fix everyone - celebrate what you have found, bask in it and if you do that you will likely get the attention of those "condemned" than by the constant looking down the nose, judging, and condemnation. (btw the "you" I speak of is a general statement - not you directly)

Other than the most radical muslims I fail to see how any of these other people directly threaten your salvation. So why spend so much time thinking about how you are right and they are wrong..... It honestly confuses me.

Do you believe that Christ commands us in Matt. 28: 19 to preach the gospel to the whole world, to every human being on the face of the earth?

It's not a question of people threatening our or my salvation. I don't feel that way at all.

Nor is it a matter of spending time think about how right we are or how wrong they are... it is a matter of taking seriously what Christ commands ALL His followers to do.

Do you believe that the Three Angels Messages are to be proclaimed to the whole world?

That seems to be the opposite of what you appear to be suggesting.

Well the long and short of it is that I personally do not believe that at all John. At least not in the way it is most often done. But then as I have stated - I am not a Christian so I really would be the last person to feel that it should be hammered into people.

Now to seemingly contridict myself - I have read the Bible at least 5 times - cover to cover. I think the message of Christ was one of the most amazingly beautiful messages in the history of the world. I just think the faith that practiced under his name has little to do with his message...

Thats my experience.

[ClubV12]

It is not condeming the folks that live on the slopes of a volcano to wake them up and tell them they need to evacuate, or die. It's just the straight truth, delivered in love because you don't want to see them die. Now some are going to stay on the mountain, and there's nothing you can do about it. But their blood won't be on your hands, the warning was given.

But if you tell those same folks, "Go in peace, live well, sleep well, dream well, be refreshed and let the Divine shine through you", there blood will be on your hands.

Love is in the eye of the beholder. It's Gods message Adventists are delivering, if you think it's to strong, take it up with Him,,, please. He would love to hear from you.

[John317]

Well I am one of those that gets a bit miffed if you come to my door......

How come? I like talking to people at my door.

I enjoy talking to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who come to my door. This summer I invited some Mormon missionaries into my house and gave them glasses of cold water while we talked. I like JWs even though I don't agree with them on some important doctrines.

I'm planning soon on going door to door in my town and getting to know the people and passing out tracts. I'll also give them an invitation to my local church.

[John317]

...I have read the Bible at least 5 times - cover to cover. I think the message of Christ was one of the most amazingly beautiful messages in the history of the world. I just think the faith that practiced under his name has little to do with his message...

Could you briefly give a description of what you believe the Bible's-- and Christ's-- message is?

If you believe Christ had one of the most amazinginly beautiful messages [which I agree with you on], why aren't you a disciple or follower? Or do you believe you are, but without the name?

Do you accept all of the Bible?

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Well I am one of those that gets a bit miffed if you come to my door......

How come? I like talking to people at my door.

I enjoy talking to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who come to my door. This summer I invited some Mormon missionaries into my house and gave them glasses of cold water while we talked. I like JWs even though I don't agree with them on some important doctrines.

I'm planning soon on going door to door in my town and getting to know the people and passing out tracts. I'll also give them an invitation to my local church.

Because I am a very private person. I am not a fan of people coming to my door that were not invited. The other reason is that 9 times out of 10 they are the kind that will be glad to talk and really unhappy about listening. So I just choose not to waste my breath.

[John317]

... I would ask them what they actually knew about this persons beliefs and they would sit there stuttering and stammering before they would admit that they knew nothing about it. Yet they were willing to damn those beliefs.

OK, I think the same way you do, pretty much. But I do believe it is possible to know that someone's beliefs are not true without having studied them in detail. For instance, if I find that the Bible teaches one thing, but then someone tells me that they believe something totally different, we can know they are wrong without studying their views or why they hold them. That is because the Bible is the standard of truth.

Take counterfeit money as an example. You've probably heard this before.

It is not necessary to study all the counterfeit money in order to know a false piece of money. All that's necesssary is to know the genuine money really well and then to compare the genuine piece with the others. If you do that, you can successfully pick out the counterfeits.

[LifeHiscost]

see how any of these other people directly threaten your salvation.

For the person, even being they do a poor work of living the life of Christ, if they are not intentionally living a life of sin they know to be contrary to the will of God, there is no need to feel their salvation threatened. However if they fail of pointing others to the narrow Way, in contrast to the broad way of destruction, it is the salvation of the one left in deception whose life is in greatest danger of loss.

"When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand."

Ezekiel 3:18 NASB

That may be a very selfish reason for giving testimony to the Truth of the Word, but I do not find it the only time in the Bible God has had to appeal to the weaknesses of man in order to best see His will accomplished. And many of those times are seen in the book of Revelation, to the people living in the end times.

"“I know all the things you do, and that you have a reputation for being alive—but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the requirements of my God. Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don’t wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief."Rev 3:1-3 NLT

"And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned."Mark 16:14-16 NLT

God blesses!

[M. T. Cross]

I find the message of Christ to be one of love, acceptance and patience. In the end what I got out of it was the four keys you can see in my signature.

Do I accept the Bible as a whole? I think its a partial history of the Hebrew people, I think the old testament was written in a manner that explained things to people in a way they could understand at the time. I think the whole thing was heavily influenced by the Roman Empire who saw it as a tool they could use to keep power - which it effectively has if you have a good look at the Vatican.

Why do I not consider myself a follower or disciple? Because I think there are many amazing messages. I think Buddah had one, I think there are many in Nordic lore, mostly in the Havamal.

IMO there are a lot of truths that can be found in many of the belief systems but I don't think any ONE has them all.

I do however recognize that SDA's do not think that same way. I recognize and actually respect that you think you have found it. What confuses me is that the majority of SDA's I have encountered in my life are miserable because of it. Attending campmeeting as a kid was like a nightmare come to life for me.

[John317]

....Because I am a very private person. I am not a fan of people coming to my door that were not invited. The other reason is that 9 times out of 10 they are the kind that will be glad to talk and really unhappy about listening. So I just choose not to waste my breath.

OK, that is understandable.

I'm just the opposite of you. I don't mind mostly listening. I prefer listening to people to talking. For instance, a few years ago, I spent 1 1/2 year meeting a Jehovah's Witness man for the sole purpose of learning what he believed. We met twice a week at a restaurant for about 2-4 hours every time. Believe it or not-- maybe you would believe it-- it was over a year before he asked me what I believed, and when I told him, he actually got mad and got up and left. But he told me about a week later that he would be willing to study with me some more after all. He was funny really. He made sure I understood that he wasn't there to learn anything from me but I was there to learn from him because he had "the truth." I didn't care.

So we studied some more for another 6 months or so. I went to JW Kingdom Hall worship services and also to a week of conference meetings in Long Beach where I stayed with my JW friend and his family. It was fun. I enjoyed getting to know him better and also getting to know JW beliefs. I was actually very impressed with some of what I saw and heard.

But during all that time I hardly ever told him what I believed, and I really didn't care because I am mostly interested in learning what other people believe anyhow.

I admit you probably wouldn't notice this about me on the Forum because here on the Forum, I'm a writer as well as a reader, and of course you can't tell when I'm reading.

But in person, I would mostly listen if you're the kind that enjoys talking.

The 1 1/2 years I spent with that Jehovah's Witness man was well worth it. I learned a lot and I enjoyed our meetings. I still see him sometimes passing out literature at the Donut Shop. We're still friends but he knows I'm not going to become a JW like he wanted. I was a great disappointment to him because he had it all planned that I would work with him going door to door.

[ClubV12]

"I think there are many amazing messages."

Sure, there are, but there is only one name whereby you can be saved from that coming volcano, Jesus Christ.

[M. T. Cross]

It is not condeming the folks that live on the slopes of a volcano to wake them up and tell them they need to evacuate, or die. It's just the straight truth, delivered in love because you don't want to see them die. Now some are going to stay on the mountain, and there's nothing you can do about it. But their blood won't be on your hands, the warning was given.

But if you tell those same folks, "Go in peace, live well, sleep well, dream well, be refreshed and let the Divine shine through you", there blood will be on your hands.

Love is in the eye of the beholder. It's Gods message Adventists are delivering, if you think it's to strong, take it up with Him,,, please. He would love to hear from you.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

....Because I am a very private person. I am not a fan of people coming to my door that were not invited. The other reason is that 9 times out of 10 they are the kind that will be glad to talk and really unhappy about listening. So I just choose not to waste my breath.

OK, that is understandable.

I'm just the opposite of you. I don't mind mostly listening. I prefer listening to people to talking. For instance, a few years ago, I spent 1 1/2 year meeting a Jehovah's Witness man for the sole purpose of learning what he believed. We met twice a week at a restaurant for about 2-4 hours every time. Believe it or not-- maybe you would believe it-- it was over a year before he asked me what I believed, and when I told him, he actually got mad and got up and left. But he told me about a week later that he would be willing to study with me some more after all. He was funny really. He made sure I understood that he wasn't there to learn anything from me but I was there to learn from him because he had "the truth." I didn't care.

So we studied some more for another 6 months or so. I went to JW Kingdom Hall worship services and also to a week of conference meetings in Long Beach where I stayed with my JW friend and his family. It was fun. I enjoyed getting to know him better and also getting to know JW beliefs. I was actually very impressed with some of what I saw and heard.

But during all that time I hardly ever told him what I believed, and I really didn't care because I am mostly interested in learning what other people believe anyhow.

I admit you probably wouldn't notice this about me on the Forum because here on the Forum, I'm a writer as well as a reader, and of course you can't tell when I'm reading.

But in person, I would mostly listen if you're the kind that enjoys talking.

The 1 1/2 years I spent with that Jehovah's Witness man was well worth it. I learned a lot and I enjoyed our meetings. I still see him sometimes passing out literature at the Donut Shop. We're still friends but he knows I'm not going to become a JW like he wanted. I was a great disappointment to him because he had it all planned that I would work with him going door to door.

Dad? LOL My father studied with JW's a lot. I used to sit and listen to it. Iused to work with 2 JW's. One was a very cool guy and we would discuss religion at length. We never agreed on anything but we did not need to - we had a huge respect for the passion each felt.

The other one however was not like that. He overheard a discussion another fellow and I were having one lunch break and decided to set us straight. Turns out both of us knew more about his religion than he did. So we called him on it - I felt in a very kid way, it was just that he did not even know his own doctrine very well. He reported us for religious harrassment. I found that a tad amusing because he came to us not the other way around.